Thread: The Great Climategate Debate @ MIT World

Originally Posted by Yoda9578

Do you mean politically? The scientific debating has been over for 15 years.

This.

Can people just get over themselves and stop doubting it already? Just LOOK THE FUCK AROUND YOU!
Shit is DYING!
The weather is becoming erratic, sea levels rising.
Shit, even the birds are getting up earlier, anyone noticed that?

I'm not even going to take part in this "debate". (Past this post). Because there is not even a debate going on. Anywhere! It's some idiots who like to think they're smart, arguing moot points to intelligent scientists who have been studying this for decades.

Get over the conspiracy theories.

Conspiracy? Hm.

You don't even know my opinion. I just tried to state the issue.
And there you have a debate that acknowledges, very well in my
opinion, all sides there are to it.

And this is somewhat a different discussion than that we are screwing our
planet over considering deforestation, what we're doing to our oceans, our
use of ressources, pollution - I try to keep up with all of that. With horror.
But as it goes for global warming, there is such a racket going on and I find
it hard to stay objective, but I think it's important. And it's important as to
what we're buying into in order to save our planet.

Also the climategate thing was bound to spark new debate. I try to keep it
scientific. Apart from that, you absoluetly mistook this thread as an attempt
at scepticism. It is not. I actually feel somewhat more drawn to the 'global
warming is happening' side after viewing it.

This is just another one of those "facts" that the lay followers of the scientific religion are unwilling to even discuss, as evidenced by the posts in this thread. They won't discuss the issue because 'they' are right and everyone else is wrong.

With just a little bit of research though, they would find out that nothing is as clear cut as they think it is, least of all climate and its changes and cycles. Mars warming, solar cycles, inadequate amounts of data; these things mean nothing to people who already know that they are right.

I personally won't even say that anthropogenic climate change is false, because I don't know. There isn't enough data. We would need thousands of years of data to reliably notice any difference that we may be having. People don't like saying "I don't know", but that is typically what science is supposed to be all about.

Thanks, Dajo. I really want to understand both sides of the argument better, and what you posted is the sort of thing that helps.

There in fact are lots of climate scientists who say global warming is a crock. I am extra skeptical of any kind of claim that seems to be pushed through pressure and ostracism much more than it is pushed thrrough logic. The global warming movement comes with a whole lot of, "You SUCK if you don't believe this! EVERYBODY knows it's true. It's not even subject to argument!" That is how religions recruit people, not scientists. It is not enough for me to base a conclusion on.

Here is a work from the skeptical scientists' point of view. It is a documentary called The Great Global Warming Swindle. This is Part 1, and each next part has a link at the right of the screen.



The debate lives.

Well my post was kind of meant for the ensuing debate.
But anyway, ok this is my last post here.
Even IF global warming is not happening, just for arguments sake.

Is it still not worth it to try and clean up our environment?
Litter does not look good, pollution does not smell good, dead trees do not look good, roaring 12 cylinder engines do not sound good, pollution is not healthy, uranium is not healthy etc.

It's pointless imo to even bother arguing this. I don't care if it's happening, I want to live in a clean and healthy and good looking environment. End of story. We can't keep living like we are.

^ to answer you frist question, yes, of course it is worth not polluting as much still, that is obvious and most people who are skeptical of global warming still feel this way.

and in response to you first post...around here these winters are the coldest we've had in a long long time...thats what I see looking around me.

Originally Posted by tommo

Well my post was kind of meant for the ensuing debate.
But anyway, ok this is my last post here.
Even IF global warming is not happening, just for arguments sake.

Is it still not worth it to try and clean up our environment?
Litter does not look good, pollution does not smell good, dead trees do not look good, roaring 12 cylinder engines do not sound good, pollution is not healthy, uranium is not healthy etc.

It's pointless imo to even bother arguing this. I don't care if it's happening, I want to live in a clean and healthy and good looking environment. End of story. We can't keep living like we are.

Sure, that's fine.

But this is the science thread, isn't it? Because some of us maybe want to get
the issue, which by the way will shape a lot of our future, down in all its facets.

This does not mean at all that there should not be taken any measures to create
our environment more eco-friendly. Quite the opposite. But even if every prevention
was in the making, it should still continously be discussed. Especially since it is an
issue that exceeded 'just' enviromentalism. You would, of course be free to choose
not to participate. Even though it would be more effective if you just stated your opinion.
Or linked to one of the scientific journals that positvely investigates this at length.

Edit: A good scientific journal would be much appreciated!!

Originally Posted by Universal Mind

Thanks, Dajo. I really want to understand both sides of the argument better, and what you posted is the sort of thing that helps.

Thanks. It helped me.

Originally Posted by tkdyo

^ to answer you frist question, yes, of course it is worth not polluting as much still, that is obvious and most people who are skeptical of global warming still feel this way.

Exactly. I have been trying for quite a while now to adjust my life to a more
environmental and less consuming way. Inspite of this I am still critical about
global warming. This doesn't mean, I will use this as an excuse for littering.

Originally Posted by Xaqaria

This is just another one of those "facts" that the lay followers of the scientific religion are unwilling to even discuss, as evidenced by the posts in this thread. They won't discuss the issue because 'they' are right and everyone else is wrong.

Which is far from scientific. But you implied that with 'religion' I guess

Originally Posted by tkdyo

and in response to you first post...around here these winters are the coldest we've had in a long long time...thats what I see looking around me.

I believe the term "global warming" is as much outdated as it is a misnomer. "Global Climate Change" has taken its place...and what this states is not that the entire planet will heat up...it's more along the lines that we don't know what the fuck is going to happen to the climate. It's predicted that deserts will get drier, floods will get worse, winters will get harsher, summers will become more brutal, hurricanes will get stronger, tornadoes will increase in frequency, and all sorts of other unpleasant shit.

Personally, I think that we definitely need to clean up the environment and cut back on CO2 emissions and such, but I really, really doubt this is going to happen...there just isn't enough incentive. As long as running gas-guzzling cars on cheap fossil fuels remains economic, people aren't going to change any time soon, sad as it is.

(My ideal and extremely unrealistic escape plan) - we build a bunch of boats. Sturdy boats encased in big, plastic bubbles. We give everyone on earth a tree that grows 52 different fruits...a different kind every week. The fruit are genetically engineered to have all the nutritional requirements needed by a person to survive and thrive. As sea levels rise, people take to the ocean, floating about on the tides. Solar panels on the deck of the ship charge the battery for the engine. The big plastic bubble protects people from storms and tidal waves to some extent. Eventually, people begin to converge and form big floating colonies. These floating cities are held together by bungie cords. Eventually, people begin importing materials from inland, small shops are formed, trade is re-invented, and a monetary system is created once more...

...that should make for a fun dream.

The world is heating up. I'm not happy about this. I might turn more lights off, just to make myself feel better.

Originally Posted by tommo

This.

Can people just get over themselves and stop doubting it already? Just LOOK THE FUCK AROUND YOU!
Shit is DYING!
The weather is becoming erratic, sea levels rising.
Shit, even the birds are getting up earlier, anyone noticed that?

I'm not even going to take part in this "debate". (Past this post). Because there is not even a debate going on. Anywhere! It's some idiots who like to think they're smart, arguing moot points to intelligent scientists who have been studying this for decades.

Get over the conspiracy theories.

None of those things are evidence for CO2 causing the warming though, are they?

Stop being so apocalyptic about it. There has been far more CO2 in the atmosphere in the past and life on Earth wasn't destroyed.

Originally Posted by Xei

None of those things are evidence for CO2 causing the warming though, are they?

Stop being so apocalyptic about it. There has been far more CO2 in the atmosphere in the past and life on Earth wasn't destroyed.

Yes, but there were no polar ice caps and there was less oxygen and also it was a lot warmer.

Originally Posted by A Roxxor

Yes, but there were no polar ice caps and there was less oxygen and also it was a lot warmer.

and...life still rolled on just fine...

once again, why are people so focused on this thing called global warming when we can see real impact and damage to SUPPORTING ecosystems? why do you need to argue whether or not global warming is real?

our vehicles were already known to be creating pollution before this global warming business came about. heating up or not, it's wrong to continue relying on fossil fuels

Originally Posted by tkdyo

and...life still rolled on just fine...

Well of course it did.

...?

was just adding on

Originally Posted by Xei

Stop being so apocalyptic about it. There has been far more CO2 in the atmosphere in the past and life on Earth wasn't destroyed.

The amount isn't the problem, it's the rate of change. Animals can evolve to slow changes, the problem is that it's changing at a rate never seen before. Really fast changes cause really massive extensions.



Way way way waaaaaaaaaaaaaaay outside of a normal deviation. In science you always look at the simplest explanation first. In the past 150 years, CO2 levels in the atmosphere have skyrocketed. Cars and industry put out huge amounts of COs. Simplest explanation: Industrialization has increased atmospheric CO2. The fact that all scientific data backs that up is just icing on the cake.

Originally Posted by ninja9578

Cars and industry put out huge amounts of COs. Simplest explanation: Industrialization has increased atmospheric CO2.

Meat industry is responsible for nearly a fifth of global greenhouse gas emission. Ruminants, particularly cows, emit methane, which is 23 times more potent than carbon dioxide. But hey, if that's the case....f the planet!!! Animals, mmmm.


Xei, I'm having the hardest time figuring out where you, and people who share your opinion stand. So let me directly ask you, and I hope you'll find the time to answer:
1. do you think CO2 and methane emission should be reduced; why;
2. do you recycle; why;
3. do you think humans are destroying life on Earth with our way of living today; why?

I think oil use should be reduced to zero, because it will start to decline quickly and if we don't have mitigating technology in place it could be extremely problematic.

I don't know about CO2, but I'm not convinced. As far as I can tell the only evidence is computer models and in my experience trying to predict long term trends in chaotic systems is very tricky. The MET office repeatedly embarrass themselves when they try to do it.

I recycle because we have limited resources. Also because here at uni they do it anyway. At home we are probably far better at recycling than you are. All biodegradable waste is composted, and food is given to our chickens.

I think humans probably are destoying life on Earth through hunting and habitat destruction.

I agree.

Originally Posted by juroara

once again, why are people so focused on this thing called global warming when we can see real impact and damage to SUPPORTING ecosystems? why do you need to argue whether or not global warming is real?

And I think it is still important to be discussed, because what actions there
are to be taken is dependent on what the cause is. For example would I want
to know all about global warming, before I start paying CO2 emission taxes.
I want to help create a more ecological environment, but I do not want to
just give money away to governments or any organization for that matter, if
I don't know exactly what is going on.

As for the matter of living an environment friendly life - this goes for me
without saying. I don't need to be scared into doing that. And why do we
need global warming to understand not to pollute everything? This is a
weak argument for keeping global warming from being discussed scientifically.

But it will have grave political and economical impact. The reason why some
people might seem hung up on it, is because global warming is the basis of an
ecological, economical and political 'change' (as well) and mainly on the grounds
of global warming, important decisions are being made. (Or not made, but still)

Thanks, Xei. I'm beginning to understand your point of view.

Originally Posted by tommo

This.

Can people just get over themselves and stop doubting it already? Just LOOK THE FUCK AROUND YOU!
Shit is DYING!
The weather is becoming erratic, sea levels rising.
Shit, even the birds are getting up earlier, anyone noticed that?

I'm not even going to take part in this "debate". (Past this post). Because there is not even a debate going on. Anywhere! It's some idiots who like to think they're smart, arguing moot points to intelligent scientists who have been studying this for decades.

Get over the conspiracy theories.

I don't doubt a scientists opinion since they know more than I do, but I always laugh when people tell me to look at the evidence around me. I don't see anything! Life is as normal as ever for me. I guess I should visit the north pole. For me, I don't doubt the effect civilization is having on the environment. What I do doubt are predictions about what this will bring in the future.

Originally Posted by Caprisun

I don't doubt a scientists opinion since they know more than I do, but I always laugh when people tell me to look at the evidence around me. I don't see anything! Life is as normal as ever for me. I guess I should visit the north pole. For me, I don't doubt the effect civilization is having on the environment. What I do doubt are predictions about what this will bring in the future.

How old are you? In 10 years I've seen snow fall usually starting before Halloween to usually starting just before Christmas. It's gradual, you're not going to notice it in a few years, but in a decade you certainly will. Of course, you have to be old enough to remember a decade ago.

And yes, Mario, the accepted scientific nomenclature is Climate Change because rednecks keep saying "We broke cold records too last year *puts hand in pants then sniffs it*."

Originally Posted by ninja9578

How old are you? In 10 years I've seen snow fall usually starting before Halloween to usually starting just before Christmas. It's gradual, you're not going to notice it in a few years, but in a decade you certainly will. Of course, you have to be old enough to remember a decade ago.

And yes, Mario, the accepted scientific nomenclature is Climate Change because rednecks keep saying "We broke cold records too last year *puts hand in pants then sniffs it*."

Something I found to be VERY interesting:




Oh, no, global warming/climate change can't possibly be happening. Look, I live in a very beautiful location, and the glaciers are a very large part of our way of life. I've noticed droughts getting worse and winters getting more mild, especially compared to 10 or 13 years ago (yes, I remember back that far). The facts are literally all around us...if mankind would open its eyes, we would see this.

Still missing the point.

Originally Posted by ninja9578

The amount isn't the problem, it's the rate of change. Animals can evolve to slow changes, the problem is that it's changing at a rate never seen before. Really fast changes cause really massive extensions.



Way way way waaaaaaaaaaaaaaay outside of a normal deviation. In science you always look at the simplest explanation first. In the past 150 years, CO2 levels in the atmosphere have skyrocketed. Cars and industry put out huge amounts of COs. Simplest explanation: Industrialization has increased atmospheric CO2. The fact that all scientific data backs that up is just icing on the cake.

Haven't you been paying attention? Mann fudged his dendroclimatology data, which is where the labelless graph you posted comes from. It was faked in order to exaggerate the warming of the 20th century and to erase the medieval warming period.

Do some research. Look up the hockey stick debacle (the word debacle could be replaced with scam, fraud, etc) Look up Mann Bradley and Hughes 1998, and then look up Steve McIntyre. The graph you posted is a complete fraud.

In science, you always look at your sources first to make sure the data is sound and the process is repeatable, so that you don't make a complete fool of yourself when someone points out that others have already checked and found out that the data is wrong, and the process was not repeatable.