Thread: Miracles in Religions

It's not wise to pit science against religion. Religions will die if they find themselves at odd with science. If you really believe in a creator God, then you need to accept that science shows how things are created. As for miracles, it's a problem going by ancient texts. The only good ancient texts worth listening to, are first hand accounts. If it's a story that's been handed down generation after generation before being written, then it's lost a lot of truth.

A famous miracle to start your research with that didn't happen too long ago is Fatima. But there are people today who testify that miracles are still taking place right now.

I don't like the ideology that if you can prove how something might work scientifically then it's not a miracle. Who are we to tell God how to perform miracles? There's a famous little story that christians like to email to each other, but it's one I actually like. It's about a man who's about to jump off a roof (or fall off, can't remember) and demands that God saves him. All sorts of humans come to his aid, including a helicopter. The man refuses any of their help because he's still waiting for a fiery angel to save him. Well he eventually dies and asks God in heaven why didn't God come to save him? And God says he sent a helicopter and other people capable of saving him, why did the man refuse the help? Because he's severely limited what God can or can not do.

So if you really do believe in God, you can not limit God to only 'heavenly' powers. A miracle can be completely natural, even completely human. What you want to look for in a miracle is something that is far too grand to all be coincidence. Does this mean the miracle is a point of view? It is. Either you see something meaningful taking place, or you don't. And there is no objective truth you could ever bring to someone to convince them that what is taking place is meaningful. The philosophy of mere coincidence is strong.

Originally Posted by juroara

It's not wise to pit science against religion. Religions will die if they find themselves at odd with science. If you really believe in a creator God, then you need to accept that science shows how things are created...

...I don't like the ideology that if you can prove how something might work scientifically then it's not a miracle...

I think that if anything can be proven absolutely wrong for sure, then it's not worth following. If religions are true, then those who follow them have nothing to fear about it being refuted. To me, figuring out the reason things work though is only that much more amazing. I mean, look at the humans cell. It complexity really gets you thinking. And if you see something in a scripture that was accurately described in a time without our modern scientific equipment, I think it's only natural to see whether it's right or not. Because if it is, like in the case of the Quran, you really get the odds on your side.

Originally Posted by juroara

It's not wise to pit science against religion. Religions will die if they find themselves at odd with science.

I recently downloaded an audio book by the Dalai Lama called 'A Universe in A Single Atom" I think. It was GREAT! He talks about how he was always interested in science since he was a child. He reached out to the scientific community. A friend of his's wife told him basically what I quoted you as saying. And he decided to stick his neck out and delve into science and make friendships with prominent scientists. He decided that since Buddhism and Science both share the common goal of discovering truth via empirical analysis that it would be fruitful. He said that anything that science proves to be false in Buddhist doctrine should be discarded. He talked about how he discarded the ancient tantras where they describe atoms as made of Earth, Wind, Fire, Water, and the five senses. He says that he understands that how one can describe the four elements as making up an atom but not the four senses. He describes Tibetan Buddhism as a science of using progressively more refined attention to analyze consciousness. But he also says that Buddhism has another aspect of morals to keep everything in check. Like checks and balances.

I don't like the ideology that if you can prove how something might work scientifically then it's not a miracle.

Exactly! the bias of Skeptics is to think that the only reason people believe in things is to EXPLAIN them. As if to fill a void that only science can truly fill. But no! There are voids that even science cannot fill. Things can be utterly explainable by science, and have rational explanations, but that is not the point! The point is not the explanation, but the meaning! And it is outside of the realm of science to provide the meaning. But skeptics cannot understand this part. BUt they don't have to. Each person has access to their particular window of truth, and for some it is spirituality, and for some it is science, and for many it is a brick wall. The brick wall may also be religion or science, or just nothing but the staus quo and material day to day life. But in their purest senses, science and spirituality are both the open minded search for truth, albeit one objectively and one subjectively. And both have value.

Originally Posted by Paraknight

I think that if anything can be proven absolutely wrong for sure, then it's not worth following. If religions are true, then those who follow them have nothing to fear about it being refuted. To me, figuring out the reason things work though is only that much more amazing. I mean, look at the humans cell. It complexity really gets you thinking. And if you see something in a scripture that was accurately described in a time without our modern scientific equipment, I think it's only natural to see whether it's right or not. Because if it is, like in the case of the Quran, you really get the odds on your side.

See? That is what I'm saying. But my point is that nobody should be looking for a "miracle" to convert them to religion. Or to not find a miracle and thus put their faith in science until they find one. Science is true, and the pureness of religion found within your heart is true. If a miracle converts you to some outer religious doctrine, it is not a genuine miracle. Because the Truth is too big for one world-view or one religion. Man-made religions are all limited, especially if they think they know everything and stop all future discoveries of the Truth. That is why science is so great! Because it admits that it doesn't know everything! And it keeps on learning!

“Believe nothing, no matter where you read it, no matter if I have said it, no matter if it is written in scripture, unless it agrees with your own reason and common sense.” -Buddha

…don’t go by reports, by legends, by traditions, by scripture, by logical conjecture, by inference, by analogies, by agreement through pondering views, by probability, or by the thought, ‘This contemplative is our teacher.’ When you know for yourselves that, ‘These qualities are unskillful; these qualities are blameworthy; these qualities are criticized by the wise; these qualities, when adopted & carried out, lead to harm & to suffering’ — then you should abandon them. -Buddha

“Any teaching should not be accepted as true for the following ten reasons: hearsay, tradition, rumor, accepted scriptures, surmise, axiom, logical reasoning, a feeling of affinity for the matter being pondered, the ability or attractiveness of the person offering the teaching, the fact that the teaching is offered by “my” teacher. Rather, the teaching should be accepted as true when one knows by direct experience that such is the case.” -Buddha

I would like to add also "even if you hear of a miracle" to the above quotations of the Buddha. Because we are so easily distracted and hypnotized by miracles and magic tricks. The only miracle is LOVE.

And miracles are all stupid! What miracle is there, really, that means anything? Love is the only miracle there is.

Originally Posted by Dannon Oneironaut

Love is the only miracle there is.

First of all, let me commend you for that post; especially that second paragraph, couldn't have said it better myself. I'd like to just say though that I don't think love is a miracle. To me, it's just a specific sequence of neurons in your brain firing that give you the evolutionary will to procreate (I know, cold). What I define as a miracle, is an event that against it's negligible probability, happens anyway. Like if there is a 1/1000000000 chance that you survive a fall down Mt. Everest and you do anyway, that's what I call a miracle. And chances are there was some outside intervention or a different factor on a spiritual level, if you ask me.