The Rock God Cannot Lift - Paradox, or not?

[Kastro187420]

Apologies if this has been discussed, the automated thread search doesn't show anything relevant to it, although I have seen it brought up in a few threads as a way of "Explaining" why God doesn't exist. Anyway, the question goes: "Can God create a rock that he cannot lift?" Presumably, this is supposed to be a Paradox, because if God was all powerful, then he'd be able to lift the rock, but upon lifting it, he would've failed to create a rock he couldn't lift. Both contradict his ability to be "All Powerful", and supposedly disprove him. There are other arguments similar such as "A wall he can't jump" or "an object he can't push" and so on. Honestly, I think people should stop bringing out that argument. To me, its such a simple problem to solve: If God is all powerful, then it stands to reason that he's capable of creating a being/object more powerful than himself. Because of that, one could conclude that it would be possible for him to create a rock too heavy to lift, under the premise that the rock itself is now an object more powerful than himself. The problem most people have with this, is they want to keep remaining under the assumption that God must remain "on top". We are simply introducing a new variable to the equation. God no longer remains the most powerful being/object in the universe, but rather, the 2nd most powerful. Still as powerful as ever, its just, there is now an object capable of resisting his influence on it. So, for those who still like to break out this argument, please, just think about the question/statement logically, and realize that it is indeed possible if we assume that God exists and is All powerful like the claims. The Statement/Question proves nothing to help the argument against God's existence.

[Invader]

I think the concept of omnipotence is fundamentally flawed (or just misunderstood) in that something that is infinite in nature cannot imbue something else with that same property, being that the infinite already encompasses all other things. There is no separateness, no thing that can be made "outside" of itself to which it can be compared or tested. Can something be greater than infinite, or more nothing than zero? It is an illogical operation. There are no real solutions.

[really]

This concept was discussed thoroughly here: http://www.dreamviews.com/community/...ad.php?t=82795 The paradox is formed by the following misconceptions on the nature of God: 1. God is anthropomorphized as a limited figure that is capable of lifting rocks. By definition, this is already refutes infinite power. The 'All powerful' does not have any relationship with physical strength, since strength itself is intrinsically limited, not to mention physicality itself. 2. Misunderstanding of the prefix Omni-. As Omni- actually applies, it means 'all-encompassing' or 'in all ways'. Omni-potence, Omni-science and Omni-presence all are intrinsically interrelated. Therefore God is the rock since God is the universe and beyond. In all places, all possibilities and all power by virtue of being everything. To separate God from a rock that 'He' supposedly creates is a clear conundrum, since an infinite being is subject to no limitations; excluding nothing in the universe. This is actually a concept of the non-linear, which is why the paradox that is presented is a misconception, because that misconception deals with linear comparisons.

[Alric]

As others have already pointed out, its a flawed argument. Its not a real paradox but word play, that appears on the surface to be a paradox but lack any sort of substance once you look into it.

[juroara]

The answer to your riddle is 'yes' God can create a rock that God cannot lift. Does this mean God is not all powerful because there can be a rock that God cannot lift? No, God remains all powerful which really to me means God remains transcendent. God is not a being that exists only in one place in one time. God is transcendent of that limitation. In such God exists everywhere, even outside of everywhere. So how does God create a rock that God cannot lift while at the same time remaining all powerful? Try to lift a mountain.

[♥Mark]

if God was all powerful, then he'd be able to lift the rock...If God is all powerful, then it stands to reason that he's capable of creating a being/object more powerful than himself. Because of that, one could conclude that it would be possible for him to create a rock too heavy to lift, under the premise that the rock itself is now an object more powerful than himself. It really doesn't matter who's more powerful than what. It's irrelevant to the premise. If god is all-powerful, by definition he is capable of doing anything. Besides that if you want to go ahead and say he can create things more powerful than him, you could likewise say that he could just make an even more powerful rock-lifter to have the rock lifted for him. Thereby the rock is lifted by his will using his power. Just how big does a rock have to be before it becomes more powerful than an all-powerful being, anyway? Both the response "god can" and "god cannot" do not follow from the premise. This is not a problem with the conclusions, this is a problem with the idea of unlimited power. It's just illogical. [quote=really;1446550]1. God is anthropomorphized as a limited figure that is capable of lifting rocks. By definition, this is already refutes infinite power. That makes no sense. You're saying a being with infinite power can't lift rocks? Are you just trolling or what? [quote=really;1446550]The 'All powerful' does not have any relationship with physical strength, since strength itself is intrinsically limited, not to mention physicality itself. Good point, except that it does and what you said makes no sense. Strength is just a term to describe the measure of the power or capability to perform an action. It's basically synonymous with "power" except that it implies physical action. A being with unlimited power has no limit to its "strength" as it is capable of physically manipulating any part of the universe in any fashion desired. Amazingly this includes moving specs of dust. 2. Misunderstanding of the prefix Omni-. As Omni- actually applies, it means 'all-encompassing' or 'in all ways'. Omni-potence, Omni-science and Omni-presence all are intrinsically interrelated. Therefore God is the rock since God is the universe and beyond. In all places, all possibilities and all power by virtue of being everything. To separate God from a rock that 'He' supposedly creates is a clear conundrum, since an infinite being is subject to no limitations; excluding nothing in the universe. This is actually a concept of the non-linear, which is why the paradox that is presented is a misconception, because that misconception deals with linear comparisons. So god is the rock. Can 'He' move it or what? It's almost like you're suggesting that god cannot manipulate the rock because the rock is a limited, single item. But that's basically suggesting that he can't do any single thing at all. So what? He can only do nothing? He can only do everything? As others have already pointed out, its a flawed argument. Its not a real paradox but word play, that appears on the surface to be a paradox but lack any sort of substance once you look into it. It's not a flawed argument. That the conclusions are illogical and paradoxical is exactly the point. They should both be true and untrue given infinite power. The only conclusion that makes any sense considering this is that infinite power cannot exist. The answer to your riddle is 'yes' God can create a rock that God cannot lift. Does this mean God is not all powerful because there can be a rock that God cannot lift? No, God remains all powerful which really to me means God remains transcendent. Yes, that's exactly what it means. "Cannot" implies a limitation, inability. An all powerful being is without limitations. God is not a being that exists only in one place in one time. God is transcendent of that limitation. In such God exists everywhere, even outside of everywhere. So how does God create a rock that God cannot lift while at the same time remaining all powerful? Hm? Good question. Maybe he can't because it's just plain impossible for him to be all powerful. I'll tell you that he doesn't do or not do it by being "transcendent and existing everywhere, even outside of everywhere" as that is totally irrelevant.

[Dannon Oneironaut]

God can agree to pretend to fool itself into thinking that it cannot lift the rock so well that it will believe itself. Can you dream a rock that you cannot lift in the dream? Of course you can, but that doesn't mean that you are unable to lift it, only that either it is part of the plot that you want to dream, or that you are not completely lucid. God can dream up the idea of matter: a substance that appears to be outside of the power of the mind to control. God can, for the sake of play, decide to descend into matter, rearrange atoms into molecules, molecules into amino acids and proteins, then into DNA, and then take billions of years to evolve through all the plants and animals, gradually... reaching lucidity of who itself really is and that it can move the rock because there is no such thing as a substance that is outside its power. Perhaps in this process, God also evolves and evolves its consciousness like a fractal unfolding. Perhaps it is a challenge to its omnipotence that helps it grow, like infinity plus one. Even the concept of infinity is limited. Perhaps God can never know its own infinite nature, so it becomes all the Universes and all the elements and energies and critters in the Universes in order to constantly express and know its own infiniteness. Infinity is so abundant, the cup runneth over, and Universes spill out. Somewhere in a corner of the mind of God it dreams up all possible obstacles and limitations and spends eons and ages (which all exist in the same moment to God) overcoming them. Our own predicament right now on this Earth is part of the dream of God. A sad tragic comedic dramatic beautiful thrilling romantic pitiful and ultimately victorious dream. God will always be victorious, that is part of the way things are. But the problem is that we call it God, thereby thinking that we can know it, but it is such an infinite thing that it is unknowable. God is the wrong word, other words that would be better are still just as inadequate. Existence, the Infinite, the Transcendental Object at the End of Time, The Transcendent and Immanent, The Cosmic Mind, That which always was and always will be, The eternally unfolding fractal of consciousness, etc. So God is so omnipotent that it cannot create a rock that it cannot lift, yet it does anyway. And in the end it will figure out a way. And then it will do something even greater again... and again.... and again. Of course all these agains are really at the same moment. It is just inconceivable. Some more questions: Can God make itself not exist? Can God become a human? Can a human become God? Can a human ever understand God? Can God create a Universe that it cannot understand? etc...

[tkdyo]

the first part of dannons post makes the case in point. Supposedly we are all powerful in our dreams. But, theres really no such thing as a rock we cant lift in a dream. The scenario would be similar for god. If god is indeed outside the bindings of matter, time, dimensions, as omni implies...well then the answer is no.

[ninja9578]

If god could, he could cover the rock with paper.

[Dannon Oneironaut]

This is the limitation of logic. This is the limitation of rationality. Pay close attention! Whenever logic finds it way into the innermost mysteries of life and existence, it comes to a paradox. Wherever you look! Even in intellectual philosophical riddles, let alone real life! What to say about real life? What to say about reality? What to say about love? What to say about life and death? It is a paradox! Whether you search through physics, biology, philosophy, human emotions, music, microscopically or telescopically or macroscopically! Whether you look at an individual atom or the whole Universe. The kernel of truth in every moment in every place and thing is a paradox. Example: matter is energy! Nothing is everything! etc... This question is a stupid question because: it is asked from a purely intellectual human viewpoint about something that is infinite! Do you expect to trick God? Or trick believers? You are tricking yourself! It is basically the atheist version of 'Why is there everything instead of nothing?" Do you think a believer is trying to use logic when he asks "Why is there everything instead of nothing?" Logic fails in both cases. Really you are tricking yourself with your own logic. Logic is neither true nor untrue. Because the truth is beyond logic! See it! Logic is very utilitarian in the objective world, but even then it fails ultimately. Logic cannot solve the mysteries of existence. The mysteries are unsolvable. Logic can figure out the unknown, but not the unknowable. Anyway.... This question and all answers are purely entertaining to me, because I think of God as universal consciousness. Consciousness cannot act in the material world without a material body. But the material world is a dream of God, and we are individual containers for universal consciousness. We are God's DCs. Anything that God wants to do in this world is being done by nature. And it is not God's wants or desires, but ours, that manifest. And our fears. God doesn't have a will, nature has a will, and that is to be blissfully happy. And Nature is realizing that bliss is only possible by the lucidity of realizing that Nature is actually God dreaming. Nature's will is God's will. Our will is God's will. That is why there is what we call 'evil'. God doesn't judge, we do. God is not a person with opinions and desires and judgements. God doesn't WANT to lift a rock. That is why God lets 'evil' things happen. God may be omniscient, but God's omnipotence is Nature. And Nature isn't lucid... yet. You think that because you discover a paradox about your concept of God that you disprove the existence of an infinite consciousness? That shows that you haven't been paying close attention to your life. If you have been paying close attention you would see that everything is a paradox. God is NOT the Flying Spaghetti Monster! Can God create a human that is so logical that he can logically prove that God doesn't exist? That would be a better miracle than lifting a rock.

[Xaqaria]

There is a simple answer; Rock gods do not lift, they rock.

[Dannon Oneironaut]

I guess y'all given up on me a long time ago! First, in order to have a good discussion, or even a good argument for that matter, we need to agree on what God is. And that seems out of the question!!! To some of us, God is the Flying Spaghetti Monster, who is bound to our concepts and definitions, and out meager understanding of infinity. To some of us, God is all of the energy in the Universe, to some of us, God is all that is good, to some of us, God is indefinable. To some of us, the word 'God' means Universal lucid consciousness. And to some of us, the concept of God has no meaning. So what is the point? When we engage in a conversation or an argument we need to know what we are talking about. If, by the word God, you mean: The Flying Spaghetti Monster, then this God does not exist because common sense and the question prove otherwise. If, by the word 'God', you mean: All the energy in the Universe, then, no, God cannot create a rock that he cannot lift. If, by the word 'God', you mean: All that is good, then maybe so, maybe not. If, the word 'God' is indefinable, then the answer is: only God knows. If the word 'God' means Universal lucid consciousness, Then the answer is yes and no. If, the word 'God' has no meaning, then the question has no meaning. So, for the sake of argument, What does the word 'God' mean to you and why? And then explain how that relates to your answer to the OP.

[RedfishBluefish]

Definitions: 1. If X is omnipotent, for every infinitive verb S, X can S Axioms: 2. There is some X that is omnipotent Therefore: 3. Since X is omnipotent, X can (create a rock whose nature is that X cannot lift it) - Hence X cannot lift such a rock 4. Since X is omnipotent, X can (lift such a rock) 5. This is a contradiction 6. Hence an axiom must be false Conclusion: 7. There is no X that is omnipotent 8. (ie. God cannot be omnipotent) Now this is all good, but all it shows is that this particular definition of omnipotence is useless, since nothing can actually be omnipotent. Most religions, I would say, are more likely to define omnipotence in a more reasonable way (like the lucid dreamer who is capable of anything in the context of a dream, or the computer programmer "omnipotent" in the context of a simulation). So the Unliftable Rock argument is pretty useless really for proving that God doesn't exist, because it can easily be circumvented just by defining omnipotence in a way that excludes contradictory acts. EDIT: Also, my browser double-posts every time I post something. Waahh, why...

[SaMaster14]

Ahh.. I love this question! "Can god create a rock so strong he/she/it cannot break?" Or "Can God create a ring so small that he cannot fit through?" In all honesty, when I think of these questions I feel that the essence or energy we call God is so out of our mental boundaries, that the answer to both questions are yes. ... our simple human minds just can't fathom how the answer works out to be true. ... its something that just is. Time and space are not relevant in the universe or in the realm/dimension of the being we call God... it just is.

[spockman]

It is a paradox. Unless God is a being whose existance is beyond physical laws. If he is truly beyond the universe, we can't apply our conceptions of power to truly understand what power is to him.

[Supernova]

Turns out the question of weather or not it is a paradox is a paradox.

[Xaqaria]

It is a modern day Koan. Meditate and maybe your mind will grant you access to the excluded middle.