Thread: The Rock God Cannot Lift - Paradox, or not?

I think the concept of omnipotence is fundamentally flawed (or just misunderstood) in that something that is infinite in nature cannot imbue something else with that same property, being that the infinite already encompasses all other things. There is no separateness, no thing that can be made "outside" of itself to which it can be compared or tested.

Can something be greater than infinite, or more nothing than zero? It is an illogical operation. There are no real solutions.

This concept was discussed thoroughly here:

http://www.dreamviews.com/community/...ad.php?t=82795

The paradox is formed by the following misconceptions on the nature of God:

1. God is anthropomorphized as a limited figure that is capable of lifting rocks. By definition, this is already refutes infinite power. The 'All powerful' does not have any relationship with physical strength, since strength itself is intrinsically limited, not to mention physicality itself.

2. Misunderstanding of the prefix Omni-. As Omni- actually applies, it means 'all-encompassing' or 'in all ways'. Omni-potence, Omni-science and Omni-presence all are intrinsically interrelated. Therefore God is the rock since God is the universe and beyond. In all places, all possibilities and all power by virtue of being everything.

To separate God from a rock that 'He' supposedly creates is a clear conundrum, since an infinite being is subject to no limitations; excluding nothing in the universe. This is actually a concept of the non-linear, which is why the paradox that is presented is a misconception, because that misconception deals with linear comparisons.

As others have already pointed out, its a flawed argument. Its not a real paradox but word play, that appears on the surface to be a paradox but lack any sort of substance once you look into it.

The answer to your riddle is 'yes' God can create a rock that God cannot lift. Does this mean God is not all powerful because there can be a rock that God cannot lift? No, God remains all powerful which really to me means God remains transcendent.

God is not a being that exists only in one place in one time. God is transcendent of that limitation. In such God exists everywhere, even outside of everywhere. So how does God create a rock that God cannot lift while at the same time remaining all powerful?

Try to lift a mountain.

Originally Posted by Kastro187420

if God was all powerful, then he'd be able to lift the rock...If God is all powerful, then it stands to reason that he's capable of creating a being/object more powerful than himself. Because of that, one could conclude that it would be possible for him to create a rock too heavy to lift, under the premise that the rock itself is now an object more powerful than himself.

It really doesn't matter who's more powerful than what. It's irrelevant to the premise. If god is all-powerful, by definition he is capable of doing anything. Besides that if you want to go ahead and say he can create things more powerful than him, you could likewise say that he could just make an even more powerful rock-lifter to have the rock lifted for him. Thereby the rock is lifted by his will using his power.

Just how big does a rock have to be before it becomes more powerful than an all-powerful being, anyway? Both the response "god can" and "god cannot" do not follow from the premise. This is not a problem with the conclusions, this is a problem with the idea of unlimited power. It's just illogical.
[quote=really;1446550]1. God is anthropomorphized as a limited figure that is capable of lifting rocks. By definition, this is already refutes infinite power.

That makes no sense. You're saying a being with infinite power can't lift rocks? Are you just trolling or what?
[quote=really;1446550]The 'All powerful' does not have any relationship with physical strength, since strength itself is intrinsically limited, not to mention physicality itself.

Good point, except that it does and what you said makes no sense. Strength is just a term to describe the measure of the power or capability to perform an action. It's basically synonymous with "power" except that it implies physical action. A being with unlimited power has no limit to its "strength" as it is capable of physically manipulating any part of the universe in any fashion desired. Amazingly this includes moving specs of dust.

Originally Posted by really

2. Misunderstanding of the prefix Omni-. As Omni- actually applies, it means 'all-encompassing' or 'in all ways'. Omni-potence, Omni-science and Omni-presence all are intrinsically interrelated. Therefore God is the rock since God is the universe and beyond. In all places, all possibilities and all power by virtue of being everything.

To separate God from a rock that 'He' supposedly creates is a clear conundrum, since an infinite being is subject to no limitations; excluding nothing in the universe. This is actually a concept of the non-linear, which is why the paradox that is presented is a misconception, because that misconception deals with linear comparisons.

So god is the rock. Can 'He' move it or what? It's almost like you're suggesting that god cannot manipulate the rock because the rock is a limited, single item. But that's basically suggesting that he can't do any single thing at all. So what? He can only do nothing? He can only do everything?

Originally Posted by Alric

As others have already pointed out, its a flawed argument. Its not a real paradox but word play, that appears on the surface to be a paradox but lack any sort of substance once you look into it.

It's not a flawed argument. That the conclusions are illogical and paradoxical is exactly the point. They should both be true and untrue given infinite power. The only conclusion that makes any sense considering this is that infinite power cannot exist.

Originally Posted by juroara

The answer to your riddle is 'yes' God can create a rock that God cannot lift. Does this mean God is not all powerful because there can be a rock that God cannot lift? No, God remains all powerful which really to me means God remains transcendent.

Yes, that's exactly what it means. "Cannot" implies a limitation, inability. An all powerful being is without limitations.

Originally Posted by juroara

God is not a being that exists only in one place in one time. God is transcendent of that limitation. In such God exists everywhere, even outside of everywhere. So how does God create a rock that God cannot lift while at the same time remaining all powerful?

Hm? Good question. Maybe he can't because it's just plain impossible for him to be all powerful. I'll tell you that he doesn't do or not do it by being "transcendent and existing everywhere, even outside of everywhere" as that is totally irrelevant.

God can agree to pretend to fool itself into thinking that it cannot lift the rock so well that it will believe itself.
Can you dream a rock that you cannot lift in the dream?
Of course you can, but that doesn't mean that you are unable to lift it,
only that either it is part of the plot that you want to dream,
or that you are not completely lucid.
God can dream up the idea of matter: a substance that
appears to be outside of the power of the mind to control.
God can, for the sake of play, decide to descend into matter,
rearrange atoms into molecules,
molecules into amino acids and proteins,
then into DNA,
and then take billions of years to evolve through all the plants and animals,
gradually...
reaching lucidity of who itself really is
and that it can move the rock
because there is no such thing
as a substance that is outside its power.
Perhaps in this process, God also evolves
and evolves its consciousness like a fractal unfolding.
Perhaps it is a challenge to its omnipotence that helps it grow,
like infinity plus one. Even the concept of infinity is limited.
Perhaps God can never know its own infinite nature,
so it becomes all the Universes and all the elements and energies
and critters in the Universes in order to constantly express and know its own infiniteness.
Infinity is so abundant, the cup runneth over,
and Universes spill out. Somewhere in a corner of the mind of God
it dreams up all possible obstacles and limitations and spends
eons and ages (which all exist in the same moment to God) overcoming them.
Our own predicament right now on this Earth is part of the dream of God.
A sad tragic comedic dramatic beautiful thrilling romantic pitiful and ultimately victorious dream.
God will always be victorious, that is part of the way things are.
But the problem is that we call it God, thereby thinking that we can know it, but it is such an infinite thing that it is unknowable. God is the wrong word, other words that would be better are still just as inadequate. Existence, the Infinite, the Transcendental Object at the End of Time, The Transcendent and Immanent, The Cosmic Mind, That which always was and always will be, The eternally unfolding fractal of consciousness, etc.
So God is so omnipotent that it cannot create a rock that it cannot lift, yet it does anyway. And in the end it will figure out a way. And then it will do something even greater again... and again.... and again. Of course all these agains are really at the same moment.
It is just inconceivable.
Some more questions: Can God make itself not exist? Can God become a human? Can a human become God? Can a human ever understand God? Can God create a Universe that it cannot understand? etc...

the first part of dannons post makes the case in point. Supposedly we are all powerful in our dreams. But, theres really no such thing as a rock we cant lift in a dream. The scenario would be similar for god. If god is indeed outside the bindings of matter, time, dimensions, as omni implies...well then the answer is no.

If god could, he could cover the rock with paper.

Originally Posted by Mark75

Yes, that's exactly what it means. "Cannot" implies a limitation, inability. An all powerful being is without limitations.

Go ahead and try to lift a mountain. If you can't then you understand my riddle. While the TRUE God that is transcendent has no limitations, temporary-illusionary limitations have been placed on the individualizations of God that we are. God has already created a rock so great that not even God can lift. You are the God that cannot lift the mighty rock. But the rock exists within the bubble of creation. And outside that bubble there is only the uncreated God.

This dual nature of God is talked about in religions world wide. Alpha and Omega. Created and Uncreated. Within. Without. Which is why the answer to this riddle is yes and no simultaneously!

Originally Posted by Mark75

That makes no sense. You're saying a being with infinite power can't lift rocks? Are you just trolling or what?

Well if you read on in my post, it already explains this.

Good point, except that it does and what you said makes no sense. Strength is just a term to describe the measure of the power or capability to perform an action. It's basically synonymous with "power" except that it implies physical action. A being with unlimited power has no limit to its "strength" as it is capable of physically manipulating any part of the universe in any fashion desired. Amazingly this includes moving specs of dust.

My point is that, contrary to popular belief, this is not about strength. Infinite power does not concern the exerting of force or transferal of energy with endless quantity. It is the total space in which any transferation of energy can exist; it is the universe and beyond. Therefore, everything that could ever happen does so in accord with the cosmic laws of the universe. This is directly intrinsic to an Absolute Reality, which is not different than Omnipotence.

So god is the rock. Can 'He' move it or what? It's almost like you're suggesting that god cannot manipulate the rock because the rock is a limited, single item. But that's basically suggesting that he can't do any single thing at all. So what? He can only do nothing? He can only do everything?

To expand on what I've already said, there is no problem here. If Omnipotence is "all-power" and is Omnipresent, then consequently there is no requirement or possibility for "doing" or "not doing". 'Doingness' concerns a smaller paradigm that stems from that of cause and effect. There is no cause-effect, 'doingness', actions nor is there exhaustible forces in the greater paradigm of Omnipotence.

It's not a flawed argument. That the conclusions are illogical and paradoxical is exactly the point. They should both be true and untrue given infinite power. The only conclusion that makes any sense considering this is that infinite power cannot exist.

Yes, that's exactly what it means. "Cannot" implies a limitation, inability. An all powerful being is without limitations.

Hm? Good question. Maybe he can't because it's just plain impossible for him to be all powerful. I'll tell you that he doesn't do or not do it by being "transcendent and existing everywhere, even outside of everywhere" as that is totally irrelevant.

As I said, the reason why the concept appears to be invalid is because it is a mistake of paradigm. What you're doing is mere wordplay; a linear argument for the non-linear, and it simply cannot work that way. It is like trying to find the end of a rainbow with a ruler.

Originally Posted by juroara

Go ahead and try to lift a mountain. If you can't then you understand my riddle. While the TRUE God that is transcendent has no limitations, temporary-illusionary limitations have been placed on the individualizations of God that we are. God has already created a rock so great that not even God can lift. You are the God that cannot lift the mighty rock.

Juroara, how can you say "God has already created a rock so great that not even God can lift."; does God really "do" anything?

If God is infinitely powerful, he can create a rock so heavy that he cannot lift it, but he would be able to lift it. Yes, there is a contradiction in that. The concept of infinite power contradicts itself.

If God could not lift the rock he created, he would not be omnipotent. If he could not create the rock he is unable to lift, he would not be omnipotent. Thus, to be omnipotent, he would have to be able to do both. Is there such thing as omnipotence? No.

No matter what solution there is, you just keep telling yourself that.

This is the limitation of logic. This is the limitation of rationality. Pay close attention!

Whenever logic finds it way into the innermost mysteries of life and existence, it comes to a paradox. Wherever you look! Even in intellectual philosophical riddles, let alone real life! What to say about real life? What to say about reality? What to say about love? What to say about life and death? It is a paradox! Whether you search through physics, biology, philosophy, human emotions, music, microscopically or telescopically or macroscopically! Whether you look at an individual atom or the whole Universe. The kernel of truth in every moment in every place and thing is a paradox. Example: matter is energy! Nothing is everything! etc...

This question is a stupid question because: it is asked from a purely intellectual human viewpoint about something that is infinite! Do you expect to trick God? Or trick believers? You are tricking yourself!
It is basically the atheist version of 'Why is there everything instead of nothing?" Do you think a believer is trying to use logic when he asks "Why is there everything instead of nothing?" Logic fails in both cases. Really you are tricking yourself with your own logic. Logic is neither true nor untrue. Because the truth is beyond logic! See it! Logic is very utilitarian in the objective world, but even then it fails ultimately. Logic cannot solve the mysteries of existence. The mysteries are unsolvable. Logic can figure out the unknown, but not the unknowable.

Anyway.... This question and all answers are purely entertaining to me, because I think of God as universal consciousness. Consciousness cannot act in the material world without a material body. But the material world is a dream of God, and we are individual containers for universal consciousness. We are God's DCs.

Anything that God wants to do in this world is being done by nature. And it is not God's wants or desires, but ours, that manifest. And our fears. God doesn't have a will, nature has a will, and that is to be blissfully happy. And Nature is realizing that bliss is only possible by the lucidity of realizing that Nature is actually God dreaming.

Nature's will is God's will. Our will is God's will. That is why there is what we call 'evil'. God doesn't judge, we do. God is not a person with opinions and desires and judgements. God doesn't WANT to lift a rock.

That is why God lets 'evil' things happen. God may be omniscient, but God's omnipotence is Nature. And Nature isn't lucid... yet.

You think that because you discover a paradox about your concept of God that you disprove the existence of an infinite consciousness? That shows that you haven't been paying close attention to your life. If you have been paying close attention you would see that everything is a paradox.

God is NOT the Flying Spaghetti Monster!


Can God create a human that is so logical that he can logically prove that God doesn't exist? That would be a better miracle than lifting a rock.

Originally Posted by really

No matter what solution there is, you just keep telling yourself that.

You have not given a solution. You have just tried to minimize the nature of the issue by making off the wall assertions that you cannot back up.

Originally Posted by Dannon Oneironaut

This is the limitation of logic. This is the limitation of rationality.

Logic has a very good track record of indicating truth. Its success rate is much better than those of faith, assumption, and assertion. The ifs lead to undeniable thens in logic. Logic makes perfect sense.

There is a simple answer; Rock gods do not lift, they rock.

Originally Posted by Universal Mind

If God is infinitely powerful, he can create a rock so heavy that he cannot lift it, but he would be able to lift it. Yes, there is a contradiction in that. The concept of infinite power contradicts itself.

If God could not lift the rock he created, he would not be omnipotent. If he could not create the rock he is unable to lift, he would not be omnipotent. Thus, to be omnipotent, he would have to be able to do both. Is there such thing as omnipotence? No.

That is because there is no such thing as infinity. If there is no such thing as infinity then you can't have infinity power.

Infinity is an imaginary concept we use as a place holder for things we are incapable of measuring.

So when people say god have infinite power. They are really saying, god has power that is unmeasurable because it is so vast.

So the answer to the question would be, who knows, because his power is so great we could never measure or comprehend it. When we do this, we find that the paradox never involved god himself. The paradox revolves around the concept of infinity, and it isn't really a paradox at all since infinity is just a place holder and not an actual value.

Originally Posted by really

Juroara, how can you say "God has already created a rock so great that not even God can lift."; does God really "do" anything?

That's a different question, for a different discussion!

Originally Posted by Alric

That is because there is no such thing as infinity. If there is no such thing as infinity then you can't have infinity power.

Infinity is an imaginary concept we use as a place holder for things we are incapable of measuring.

So when people say god have infinite power. They are really saying, god has power that is unmeasurable because it is so vast.

So the answer to the question would be, who knows, because his power is so great we could never measure or comprehend it. When we do this, we find that the paradox never involved god himself. The paradox revolves around the concept of infinity, and it isn't really a paradox at all since infinity is just a place holder and not an actual value.

Infinity is not merely something that people cannot measure. It is an endless/limitless amount, like the number of cubic inches in the universe. We can't count the number of universes in the multiverse, but that does not automatically mean an infinite number of them exist.

Also, the Judeo-Christian God supposedly has no limits on his abilities. That is what is relevant.

Originally Posted by really

My point is that, contrary to popular belief, this is not about strength. Infinite power does not concern the exerting of force or transferal of energy with endless quantity.

Yes, it does. Infinite power. Think about the words you're using. Power is a term to refer to a measure of influence. Infinite power is a measure of influence which has no limit. This definition necessarily includes the exertion of force and the transferal of energy.

Originally Posted by really

It is the total space in which any transferation of energy can exist; it is the universe and beyond.

No, it is not. This is a personal definition which is vastly different from the original connotation of the term. Rewrite the English language when talking to yourself all you'd like, but consider using more exoteric terminology when speaking to others. To submit your rewording as a counter argument is essentially just a strawman. You're basically saying a being who is capable of doing anything cannot

Originally Posted by really

Therefore, everything that could ever happen does so in accord with the cosmic laws of the universe. This is directly intrinsic to an Absolute Reality, which is not different than Omnipotence.

I give up. It's impossible to communicate with you because communication is a cooperative effort and you refuse to speak in any context other than your own specific definitions of things.

I guess y'all given up on me a long time ago!

First, in order to have a good discussion, or even a good argument for that matter, we need to agree on what God is. And that seems out of the question!!! To some of us, God is the Flying Spaghetti Monster, who is bound to our concepts and definitions, and out meager understanding of infinity.
To some of us,
God is all of the energy in the Universe,
to some of us,
God is all that is good,
to some of us,
God is indefinable.
To some of us,
the word 'God' means Universal lucid consciousness.
And to some of us,
the concept of God
has no meaning.

So what is the point?
When we engage in a conversation or an argument
we need to know what we are talking about.





If, by the word God, you mean: The Flying Spaghetti Monster,
then this God does not exist because common sense and the question prove otherwise.

If, by the word 'God', you mean: All the energy in the Universe,
then, no, God cannot create a rock that he cannot lift.

If, by the word 'God', you mean: All that is good,
then maybe so, maybe not.

If, the word 'God' is indefinable,
then the answer is: only God knows.

If the word 'God' means
Universal lucid consciousness,
Then the answer is yes and no.

If, the word 'God' has no meaning,
then the question has no meaning.

So, for the sake of argument,
What does the word 'God' mean to you and why?
And then explain how that relates to your
answer to the OP.

Originally Posted by Xaqaria

There is a simple answer; Rock gods do not lift, they rock.

lol, enough said.

Originally Posted by Mark75

Yes, it does. Infinite power. Think about the words you're using. Power is a term to refer to a measure of influence. Infinite power is a measure of influence which has no limit. This definition necessarily includes the exertion of force and the transferal of energy.

Transferal of energy exhausts itself and it is dualistic. This is actually of a different realm to what I am speaking of and that is why it is naive to believe; you may as well be believing in superman. Omnipotence as 'all-power' is not "endless energy" of a limited figure, because that is a misconception of an anthropomorphised God, not to mention physically impossible. If it were to be the case, the universe itself would be more powerful than God. Omnipotence of God includes those intrinsic definitions such as Omnipresence and Omniscience, both of which you seem to have ignored.

No, it is not. This is a personal definition which is vastly different from the original connotation of the term. Rewrite the English language when talking to yourself all you'd like, but consider using more exoteric terminology when speaking to others. To submit your rewording as a counter argument is essentially just a strawman. You're basically saying a being who is capable of doing anything cannot

That is your own strawman. You'll see I'm actually explaining a far more solid premise than the original argument presented. I am not rewriting English language. The reason why it may be seen as vastly different is because the OP premise is fundamentally flawed, would it not?

I give up. It's impossible to communicate with you because communication is a cooperative effort and you refuse to speak in any context other than your own specific definitions of things.

Speak for yourself. There is no need to speak in another context if it is incorrect from the beginning. The only reason it can be useful is for re-contextualization and comparing/contrasting old ideas with the greater, which is what I have tried to do already.

Originally Posted by Universal Mind

Infinity is not merely something that people cannot measure. It is an endless/limitless amount, like the number of cubic inches in the universe. We can't count the number of universes in the multiverse, but that does not automatically mean an infinite number of them exist.

It is possible to measure the number of cubic inches in the universe, because there is actually a set limit to it. It is just beyond the abilities of humans to measure.

The same could be said for the Judeo-Christian God. Like the universe his power is probably always increasing, and already exists at a point where its so vast it could never be measured by humans, just like the number of inches in universe. However it is theoretically possible to measure his power at one point in time.

Originally Posted by Alric

It is possible to measure the number of cubic inches in the universe, because there is actually a set limit to it. It is just beyond the abilities of humans to measure.

The same could be said for the Judeo-Christian God. Like the universe his power is probably always increasing, and already exists at a point where its so vast it could never be measured by humans, just like the number of inches in universe. However it is theoretically possible to measure his power at one point in time.

The universe ends in all directions? I'm talking about space. Where does it end?

What's this? A good thread? In R/S? I never thought I'd see the day.