Christ, Christanity and the Gates to Heaven

[hgld1234]

In various places, people (Christians) have said things a lot like this: "God loves everyone, and wants people to go to Heaven, but people have sinned, thus denied Heaven. However, Christ died on the cross for us, thus making it possible for us to get to Heaven. All we gotta do is believe in Christ and be sorry and we get into Heaven." Now, that seems contradictory to me. I mean, a) if God loves us so much, why dosen't he send the vast majority of us to Heaven? And b) if God loves us, why is Heaven limited to Christians, not Jews or Muslims etc. And c) wouldn't that allow a rape muderer to get into Heaven, yet not allow a non-Christian man that helps the disabled, the poor etc etc? So why is this- if it is this at all?

[Bonsay]

Because they don't think for themselves. The conclusions don't follow logic, but indoctrination. If you indoctrinate a child that God is good, gave us free will, and that humans chose hell or heaven... then keep doing so using various subtle and not so subtle authoritarian tactics, he'll probably just merge these concepts, which hold not material or philosophical proof, with reality. If you go through the R/S section you'll see tons of these discussions. Every mentally balanced objective observer will see something wrong with "logic" like this: God is all-powerful God loves everybody God made everything Humans who don't do specified thing [x] will be tortured in horrible ways for an infinite amount of time (and it's not God's fault) Love => Infinite torture I mean seriously... does not compute. To even try to rationalize the above diagram forces us to redefine established meanings of words or throw logic away completely. It just doesn't make sense... and yet there are pages upon pages of discussions throughout the internets and everywhere else. Mostly there aren't any real arguments supported by logic, just regurgitation of indoctrinated beliefs, slogans, bible verses and pseudo-philosophical arguments and excuses. Of course it doesn't help that most organized religions see free thought as the work of Satan. Religions like that look as some evolutionary joke and the ultimate, population-wide Darwin award. If there is something of an evolutionary advantage to the human race, it's our ability to think. To throw that away is to condemn ourselves to extinction.

[Saturos]

I am a christian but I interpret the bible my own way. I disregard almost everything in the old testament. I personally believe that there is no hell, because how could an all-loving God send millions of people to burn in fire? I believe that everyone goes to heaven, but christians, believers, whatever, are rewarded, and those who were not beleivers are not punished, just not rewarded. I think there was a verse that backed this up, but I just can't find it.

[juroara]

o_____________o WHYYYYY!!???? whhyy??? whyyyyyyyy?????? "Once, having been asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, Jesus replied, "The kingdom of God does not come with your careful observation, nor will people say, 'Here it is,' or 'There it is,' because the kingdom of God is within you." What do YOU think this means?

[Invader]

"Not sending people to heaven" is not the staple argument against modern Christianity; it's that a loving God would send people to eternal suffering. a) As far as "God not rewarding someone God loves," consider a parent who loves their child. Do they reward their child regardless of any "ills" they commit to?

[spockman]

This one is interesting because by this stories estimation, kindness is the variable on salvation. Matthew 25:34-45 (New International Version) 34"Then the King will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.' 37"Then the righteous will answer him, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?' 40"The King will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me.' 41"Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.' 44"They also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?' 45"He will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.' Anyway, we can't take that by itself. There is also the passage which says "Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God." then it says "That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. 10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation." AND "I shall save whomever I shall save" and we are told that the spirit of the law is more important than it's letter. We are also told that the greatest commandment is to love God and the second greatest is to love our fellow human beings. All of this is fairly confusing. Not least of all to myself. In the end, I believe that there is value to upholding God's laws, but that the whole religion aspect of Christianity pales in comparison to the discipleship aspect, that is being Christ like. And the most important thing is loving God and people. If someone is a good, loving person outside of salvation I would say they are likely in a better position than one far less loving but within the church. I agree, Bonsay, that our traditional concept of hell is a moral contradiction.

[Alric]

I think the reason this type of question comes up so often, is because people think going to church equals accepting Jesus. Clearly it isn't. Accepting Jesus, is accepting his teaching and being a good person. You can be a good person and following the teachings of Jesus without being a christian, and without even having heard of Jesus before. The entire point is, if you love your friends and family, show respect and kindness for your neighbors, and stand up as a moral and rightous citizen, you will find yourself in heaven. If you shirk your responsiblity, are a brat and are a generally selfish and greedy person you will find only suffering. Seems like common sense to me. If you follow the first example you will have a lot of friends, and a good, peaceful life. If you follow the second example, you will have a horrible life with no friends, and no love, and chances are you will be miserable. One could say that after you die you will live the same life you are living now. If you are ruining your life and living in hell on earth, why do you expect your afterlife to be any better? If you got great friends and family, you will find heaven and happiness no matter where you go when you die. In both examples, god isn't sending you any where. God isn't sending you to heaven, and he isn't sending anyone to hell. They are sending themself to where they belong by living the life they live.

[gdriggs]

In various places, people (Christians) have said things a lot like this: "God loves everyone, and wants people to go to Heaven, but people have sinned, thus denied Heaven. However, Christ died on the cross for us, thus making it possible for us to get to Heaven. All we gotta do is believe in Christ and be sorry and we get into Heaven." Now, that seems contradictory to me. I mean, a) if God loves us so much, why dosen't he send the vast majority of us to Heaven? And b) if God loves us, why is Heaven limited to Christians, not Jews or Muslims etc. And c) wouldn't that allow a rape muderer to get into Heaven, yet not allow a non-Christian man that helps the disabled, the poor etc etc? So why is this- if it is this at all? Some very good questions hgld1234. It has been my personal experience that Christians say a lot of things that aren't true and they say a lot of things that are UN-scriptural. Here is some godly wisdom to live by, if the Church teaches it, it probably isn't true. Personally I believe God will save all humanity, and the only reason I believe that is because I believe the Scriptures when they say it is His will that all mankind be saved. 1Ti 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. Not only is it His will that all be saved, He is also NOT willing that any perish. 2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish (utterly destroyed), but that all should come to repentance. Ask almost any Christian and they will not believe what they have just read. They do not believe when God wills for something to happen, that it will actually happen, despite the fact it is written in their own bibles that whatever He wills always gets done. Isa 46:10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure: Mat 6:10 Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven. The Father has sent the Son into the world to save it, but most Christians do not believe Jesus will finish the work His Father gave Him to do. Joh 12:47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world. 1Ti 1:15 This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners (all have sinned-Rom 3:23); of whom I am chief. Most do not believe He really is the Savior of the world, and that He really will save the world. 1Jn 4:14 And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world. Joh 4:42 And said unto the woman, Now we believe, not because of thy saying: for we have heard him ourselves, and know that this is indeed the Christ, the Saviour of the world. Joh 5:36 But I have greater witness than that of John: for the works which the Father hath given me to finish, the same works that I do, bear witness of me, that the Father hath sent me. So who you gonna believe? Christians or The Word? You can see how they constantly contradict Scriptures and cause a lot of confusion, and more likely than not they do not have a genuine, godly love for their fellowman. I harbor no ill will towards them, cause I used to be one of them and I was just as deceived as they were. It was not until the Lord showed me the truth concerning the many errors in most modern bible translations like the King James Bible. Did you know that before the 2nd century there was not any word in any language in all the world that meant "eternal"? And all the Scriptures were written before the 2nd century! Your best bet if you REALLY want to know the truth is to study the Scriptures for yourself, I dont mean causally read over the words, but pay close attention, look up definitions, match and compare Scriptures and pray to have your eyes and ears opened. Dont just take anyone's word for it, look these things up yourself. It takes work if you really want to know the truth, but when you find it, it will set you free from the ungodly traditions of men. I suggest you use more than one translation, and get an Hebrew and Greek dictionary. If you are really interested check out www.bible-truths.com, there is a lot of good info there. The author of that site (L. Ray Smith) has done some good work (using Scriptures) in exposing those that contradict the Word of God and those that make merchandise of it. Peace & God bless gdriggs

[Matchbook]

o_____________o WHYYYYY!!???? whhyy??? whyyyyyyyy?????? "Once, having been asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, Jesus replied, "The kingdom of God does not come with your careful observation, nor will people say, 'Here it is,' or 'There it is,' because the kingdom of God is within you." What do YOU think this means? Juroara, Some people interpret this verse as meaning the Kingdom of God is inside of each individual's soul, but that is not the accurate interpretation according to the original language. If you refer to a Bible Concordance, you will see that the greek word for "within" here is entos, which CAN be used to refer to the soul, but Thayer's Bible Lexicon says that the context of the usage clearly means "in your midst", which is what the hearers certainly would have understood. The Jewish culture at that time would have been baffled at Jesus saying the Kingdom of God was within their souls, and when examining Jesus' other descriptive uses of Kingdom of God, it's clear that he describes it as a place to enter or that will come, or has come to them from the outside (Matthew 5:20, Matthew 7:21, Luke 10:9). There are other examples as well. However, I do believe that God's Spirit does come to dwell in the hearts of those who believe and accept Christ, as Romans 8 and Ephesians 2 says. But the Holy Spirit and the Kingdom of God isn't something innate in human beings, according to the entirety of Scripture.

[juroara]

I couldn't disagree anymore with your understanding of Jesus's teaching! Really! What else did Jesus say? You can not come to the Father except through the Christ. What else did Jesus say? The Christ is the Way, the Truth and the Life. Therefore you can not reach the Father except through the Way, the Truth and the Life. It has nothing to do with entering any sort of place. Or worshiping a person because they died on a cross for that matter. Did Jesus saying that Heaven is Within make any sense to his contemporaries? No it didn't. Is this the first time Jesus said something that didn't make sense to his contemporaries? No it isn't. There are many examples in the gospel where Jesus seems to lose patience with his disciples that didn't understand what he said. So yes, he is misunderstood a lot. A good half of Jesus teachings were completely omitted out of the bible. If you consider these other teachings Jesus, they confirm to the understanding that heaven is a state of being where you are One with God. Christ is not just a person, look above, the Way, the Truth and the Life. Christ represents a state of being that helps you to become One with God. Jesus says a very interesting prayer that reveals how he feels about his relationship with God, his mission, his duty. And what he believes is possible for others. That is, unity with God. "Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me. 22I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one: 23I in them and you in me."

[Philosopher8659]

First of all, one must think of religion in a greater context. That what is called religion has its foundation both in fact and fiction-and thus words are spoken, written, etc. by both those who know and those who do not. By what standard do you cast any of them in either category? Language is conventional, and at the foundation of that convention is shared experience. If you want to get to the root of truth in any subject, you go to the source. At the source you must understand that it is not words that you will be acquiring, but experiences which either affirms or denies the words of others. Affirmation may be either factual or metaphorical--prophets were/are taught in metaphor as an exercise to understanding judgment. In the end, do not be surprised that you find that the text is not about religion at all, but about the history of the judgmental abilities of mankind. And asking questions, as you do is a good start. But if you seek the source, the path is described in the Judeo-Christian Scripture, and also that that path would be taken from man for a long time. Lucid Dreaming is part of that path. Numbers 12:6 And he said, Hear now my words: If there be a prophet among you, I the LORD will make myself known unto him in a vision, and will speak unto him in a dream. That it would be taken away for a long time is in various places.

[spockman]

I consider the whole religion aspect of Christianity far less important than the loving people and being the best person you can be aspect of it. And a personal relationship with God is more important than a legalistic understanding of his teachings. Be that as it may, I do consider being part of a church body valuable. Just... Not as vital

[Matchbook]

Juroara, Thank you for your response! I understand what you are saying. We don't really disagree as much as you think on some points. I don't really like debate, rather, I want to harmonize with what we agree on, and clarify what we don't to the best of my ability when possible. Here is where I agree with you: The Kingdom of Heaven/God is not only a place, but a state as well. Yes, I agree wholeheartedly. Jesus' words in John 3:3 to Nicodemus says, "Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God." "See", meaning to perceive. Since this definitely doesn't mean literal sight but rather spiritual, there must be a spiritual state to God's Kingdom. Then in John 3:5 Jesus says how to transition into this state/experience: "Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God." So to enter into this experience with the Kingdom of God Jesus says we must be born again by the water and Spirit. His words here make it clear that we don't naturally have the Kingdom of God inside of us, but we can - it happens after we receive His Spirit. Juroara, I think our main disagreement was simply over whether or not the Kingdom of God is something already built into us, or whether it is something received or inherited. I hope these verses display our harmony, but also clarify that we must first receive the Spirit of God (rebirth) before we have the Kingdom of God within. I consulted Strong's Exhaustive Concordance to make sure of being thorough, and it also says the accurate translation of Luke 17:20-21 is "in your midst" which some newer literal (not paraphrase) translations have also translated to "in your midst". The real reason I'm wanting to bring attention to this is to show that Jesus wouldn't contradict Himself by telling Nicodemus that having the Kingdom of God requires a spiritual rebirth, and then tell a group of skeptical Pharisees that they already had the Kingdom of God within them. Also, you are right that Jesus said plenty of things that baffled his disciples and opponents alike! I didn't mean to have it sound like I was proving my point based on the fact His words were baffling; I might as well have omitted that statement. I would like to know what you think of these interpretations. I believe I have been using clear and honest interpretation of Jesus' words.

[really]

Juroara, I think our main disagreement was simply over whether or not the Kingdom of God is something already built into us, or whether it is something received or inherited. I hope these verses display our harmony, but also clarify that we must first receive the Spirit of God (rebirth) before we have the Kingdom of God within. I consulted Strong's Exhaustive Concordance to make sure of being thorough, and it also says the accurate translation of Luke 17:20-21 is "in your midst" which some newer literal (not paraphrase) translations have also translated to "in your midst". The real reason I'm wanting to bring attention to this is to show that Jesus wouldn't contradict Himself by telling Nicodemus that having the Kingdom of God requires a spiritual rebirth, and then tell a group of skeptical Pharisees that they already had the Kingdom of God within them. Seeing, entering and knowing the Kingdom of God can be looked at to all be synonymous with Salvation (Enlightenment, etc). When you find Heaven within you, it can sometimes be expressed as 'Seeing', 'celestial vision', 'transcendental understanding' and 'illumination.' You can say that you "entered" the Kingdom of God as a figure of speech but not literally. 'Entering' can describe moving from one state into another higher state, but it has nothing to do with a geographic location. Also I'm not sure of what "in your midst" means, it sounds even more ambiguous that just "within", so keep in mind that not all translations are accurate. The difficulty with all of this is understanding that spiritual reality is actually not as solid or logical as it seems. Connecting all these concepts must be done in a non-literal or concrete way because they are not to do with ordinary realms of predictable human experience. The concept of a rich-man not being able to enter the Kingdom of Heaven, for example, is not 100% true, however the point is, that being rich is often a major distraction/attachment for most people and thus is an obstacle them from seeing the Light of God within themselves. Similarly, condemning others and behaving in a sinful way, is as simple as ignoring Christ within, and as Alric pointed out, this results in suffering. This is not to do with God's 'choices', for if we followed God/Jesus there'd be no suffering left.

[Matchbook]

Seeing, entering and knowing the Kingdom of God can be looked at to all be synonymous with Salvation (Enlightenment, etc). When you find Heaven within you, it can sometimes be expressed as 'Seeing', 'celestial vision', 'transcendental understanding' and 'illumination.' You can say that you "entered" the Kingdom of God as a figure of speech but not literally. 'Entering' can describe moving from one state into another higher state, but it has nothing to do with a geographic location. Also I'm not sure of what "in your midst" means, it sounds even more ambiguous that just "within", so keep in mind that not all translations are accurate. Really, I do not intend to step on yours or others beliefs about enlightenment or the Kingdom of God, just so I make that clear. However, my original purpose in addressing this particular point is to give an accurate Biblical perspective that is congruent with Jesus' words and the totality of Scripture. Some may choose to include extrabiblical sources to corroborate their view, or provide other interpretation, and that is up to you/them. This extrapolation is long, but I hope you will read through it. I enjoy being thorough, because it benefits all parties. Heaven: Naturally Within, or Something Received? Really, you spoke of finding heaven within ourselves. What I am demonstrating from the perspective of Jesus' words and other Scripture is that we are not naturally born with Heaven, Holiness, or Salvation inside of us. I will demonstrate this further from Scripture, not for my own satisfaction, but because I personally believe it's important. If we were already designed with the seed of salvation and enlightenment within us, then the entire Biblical purposes of Jesus substituitionary death to replace our corruption with salvation by the Holy Spirit becomes null! In Genesis 2:16-17 God tells Adam, " And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, "Of every tree of the garden you may freely eat; but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die." (emphasis supplied) As we see in Genesis 3, both Adam and Eve did eat of the tree, and when they did they continued to live on for hundreds of years! So the only conclusion we have is that either God was mistaken, or the death that would occur when they ate the fruit that day would not be a physical death, but a spiritual death. In Genesis 3:7 the spiritual death after eating the fruit is shown: "Then the eyes of both of them were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together and made themselves coverings." The spiritual state they had that was sustained by God died that day, and they were left with a shameful experience of nakedness, obviously beyond the physical sense. Eventually, this led to physical death. This is why only Jesus' death and resurrection could restore the Kingdom of God in us. 2 Corinthians 5:21: "For He hath made Him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in Him." That is what the whole symbol of baptism meant - our sin/corrupt nature going down with Christ into the grave, and our restored spiritual nature being resurrected with Christ through the Holy Spirit. One last example: Paul in 1 Corinthians 2:12-14 says that spiritual wisdom comes by first receiving the Spirit, and expresses that some do not have that Spirit in them: "We have not received the spirit of the world but the Spirit who is from God, that we may understand what God has freely given us. This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit, expressing spiritual truths in spiritual words.The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned." "In Your Midst..." As far as the "in your midst" phrase of Luke 17:20-21, I will quote the verse from the literal ESV translation (I am aware of inaccurate translations), which was produced to give accurate Hebrew/Greek translation: "Being asked by the Phariseeswhen the kingdom of God would come, he answered them, "The kingdom of God is not coming with signs to be observed, nor will they say, 'Look, here it is!' or 'There!' for behold, the kingdom of God is in the midst of you." With Jesus (the King of kings) presence now on earth, anywhere He was, His kingdom was. The Light of the World was in their midst, and they did not recognize it. This translation of the verse is harmonious with the doctrinal continuity of Scripture in regard to God's Kingdom. Kingdom of God: Spiritual Reality, Physical Reality, or Both? Isn't it agreeable that the Kingdom of God is both a spiritual state and also a territory? God, who is King, has a main territory, Heaven. And we on earth who receive Him receive the spirituality of Heaven, and when He returns again we will enter into the physical Kingdom of God. Revelation 22 points forward to that physical entrance: "Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city." It is my hope that what I have covered has been useful and clear. If there is anything left unclear, I will be glad to clarify.

[Matchbook]

hgld1234, I have not forgotten your original questions, and I have been creating a reply that covers everything you asked, but I am taking extra time to make sure it is done well. I hope you are still following the thread, because I will post a reply soon