Thread: Would you let God out of Hell?

Easy.
My religion doesn't believe in a hell of fire, brimstone and eternal suffering. We teach that it's the "common grave of mankind".

We don't believe in a spirit that's separate from the person (i.e. "29 souls [meaning living people] were lost in the plane crash."

So, seeing how such a place doesn't exist....................................

It's totally hypothetical. I don't believe in Hell either.

I don't think anyone deserves to burn in eternal fire. Not even god.

I would.

Why would I?

Because I believe that all of the hate and angst and spite that is thrown at "God" is founded on the inability to accept that "God's" perspective is infinitely greater than our own. Even as an agnostic, I think it's arrogant to carry hatred toward a "benevolent being" (because what we're talking about is that interpretation of God, yes?), simply because one doesn't understand his point of view. What we call "suffering" (which is the main reason people 'hate' the idea of a 'benevolent God') could be - cosmically - a mere, slight irritation. By definition, this is not a concept we will be able to understand, until we have passed beyond the veil and into the alleged "afterlife."

So as of right now, I couldn't hate the super-being for allowing me to suffer, without knowing why, and to what end? It would be like a dog hating its master for popping it on the nose, after it was caught chewing on a toxic substance. Does the dog know why it was smacked? No. But did that smack potentially save the dog's life? Yes.

Originally Posted by Oneironaut

I would.

Why would I?

Because I believe that all of the hate and angst and spite that is thrown at "God" is founded on the inability to accept that "God's" perspective is infinitely greater than our own. Even as an agnostic, I think it's arrogant to carry hatred toward a "benevolent being" (because what we're talking about is that interpretation of God, yes?), simply because one doesn't understand his point of view. What we call "suffering" (which is the main reason people 'hate' the idea of a 'benevolent God') could be - cosmically - a mere, slight irritation. By definition, this is not a concept we will be able to understand, until we have passed beyond the veil and into the alleged "afterlife."

So as of right now, I couldn't hate the super-being for allowing me to suffer, without knowing why, and to what end? It would be like a dog hating its master for popping it on the nose, after it was caught chewing on a toxic substance. Does the dog know why it was smacked? No. But did that smack potentially save the dog's life? Yes.

You said we are going by the interpretation of God as a "benevolent" being. I should have addressed which version of God I am talking about. I am referring to the God of the mainstream versions of The Bible. It might say in there that he is benevolent and the he loves us and is love itself and so forth, but his actions show otherwise. He committed genocide worse than that of Mao, Stalin, Pol, and Hitler combined. In fact, the character killed all of the humans in the world except one family and all of the other animals except for two of each type. What would Human Rights Watch and PETA have to say about that? He ordered the executions of all known adulterers, homosexuals, people who work on Sunday, and kids who disobey their parents. God condoned slavery and said that it is okay to beat your slave to death as long as he/she dies more than two days after the beating. Also, not only did he allow suffering and even bring it about because somebody took a bit of an apple, he allowed the existence of Hell. Did he create it? Since he has infinite power (according to The Bible), he has no excuse. There are no limitations on him, as there are with a dog's owner. He doesn't have to allow suffering, yet he allows an eternity of it for people who honestly didn't think he existed and who didn't repent for doing things like working on Sunday and having sex outside of marriage.

I am not saying I wouldn't let him out of Hell. I'll get into my answer later. I want to read some more answers first.

Absolutely not, after all of the problems religion has caused? "God" should burn in hell for all eternity.

I'd let God out.





For a price.

Originally Posted by Universal Mind

You said we are going by the interpretation of God as a "benevolent" being. I should have addressed which version of God I am talking about. I am referring to the God of the mainstream versions of The Bible. It might say in there that he is benevolent and the he loves us and is love itself and so forth, but his actions show otherwise. He committed genocide worse than that of Mao, Stalin, Pol, and Hitler combined. In fact, the character killed all of the humans in the world except one family and all of the other animals except for two of each type. What would Human Rights Watch and PETA have to say about that? He ordered the executions of all known adulterers, homosexuals, people who work on Sunday, and kids who disobey their parents. God condoned slavery and said that it is okay to beat your slave to death as long as he/she dies more than two days after the beating. Also, not only did he allow suffering and even bring it about because somebody took a bit of an apple, he allowed the existence of Hell. Did he create it? Since he has infinite power (according to The Bible), he has no excuse. There are no limitations on him, as there are with a dog's owner. He doesn't have to allow suffering, yet he allows an eternity of it for people who honestly didn't think he existed and who didn't repent for doing things like working on Sunday and having sex outside of marriage.

I am not saying I wouldn't let him out of Hell. I'll get into my answer later. I want to read some more answers first.

I think you're missing the point, though. What is death? What is 'suffering?'

If the character "God" exists - in adherence to the Bible's interpretation - then what is "human suffering" to a being of that stature? If there exists an afterlife - and in it, we experience a level of existence that is completely different from what we experience here - then who are we to get so upset about a little human suffering? What is physical pain, in a universe that includes a metaphysical level of existence? What is physical "death" to a being that can't die (the human soul)? What is the pain of the loss of a loved one, when compared to the worst possible suffering, on the scale of a metaphysical being (a being to which we have no basis for comparison)?

What I'm getting at is; how can we rightfully hate a being, when we don't even truly understand the severity of its actions? To a teenager, being grounded is the worst punishment in the world. To a parent - one with a wider perspective - it is a necessary evil. Is that teenager right to hate the parent for such a punishment?

Suffering is a very big deal to us, and burning for eternity would be infinitely terrible for us. If God does not see it as a big deal, then he is outrageously arrogant. If he looks at the holocaust and says, "Eh, so what? I don't see much of a problem with it. I know I could have stopped it with no problem, but I just didn't feel like it," then he is crazily arrogant and evil.

Also, there is no "necessary evil" with an infinitely powerful being. Such a being would not have any rules he has to follow. He would not have to do a thing. He could end suffering without there being a problem at all with doing so, and he never had to create it or allow its existence in the first place, on any level at all. In fact, he could have given everybody eternal bliss without there being a problem with it. He would not be bound by a single rule. That does not apply to parents or dog owners. They do what they have to do. For God, there is no "have to".

However, I would let him out of Hell. I am all for deserved punishment, but nobody deserves to burn forever, even somebody who caused billions of people to burn forever. It's just way too extreme of a punishment. My conscience would not allow me to let anybody stay in that situation.

That brings me to my next question. Am I more compassionate than God?

The real question is...if god became a human, and did bad things in his human time, would the angels show bias and let god to heaven because he is god, or ship him to hell forever to suffer.

God ha let the shitter burn he created hell why shouldn't he burn in it i don't care i hate him for what he has made me and i may aswell have at least the enjoyment of watchin him burn.

Originally Posted by Universal Mind

Suffering is a very big deal to us, and burning for eternity would be infinitely terrible for us. If God does not see it as a big deal, then he is outrageously arrogant. If he looks at the holocaust and says, "Eh, so what? I don't see much of a problem with it. I know I could have stopped it with no problem, but I just didn't feel like it," then he is crazily arrogant and evil.

Also, there is no "necessary evil" with an infinitely powerful being. Such a being would not have any rules he has to follow. He would not have to do a thing. He could end suffering without there being a problem at all with doing so, and he never had to create it or allow its existence in the first place, on any level at all. In fact, he could have given everybody eternal bliss without there being a problem with it. He would not be bound by a single rule. That does not apply to parents or dog owners. They do what they have to do. For God, there is no "have to".

However, I would let him out of Hell. I am all for deserved punishment, but nobody deserves to burn forever, even somebody who caused billions of people to burn forever. It's just way too extreme of a punishment. My conscience would not allow me to let anybody stay in that situation.

To the dog and child, the parent/owner is all-powerful. But can they snap their fingers and make the child/dog into the best being they can possibly be? No.

This is all a matter of relativity (and this is never going to be something that comes out to a definite answer. I'm sure you know that. I'm just going along, and telling how I see things).

We call God ominpotent because...well..he is...from our frame of reference. There is nothing in this universe that he cannot do. This, however, does not take into account his own motives - which may be incomprehensible to us at this stage. Perhaps what is planned for these "worthy souls", beyond the veil, is so grand that 'pushing them on through' with supernatural influence would be counter-productive?

There is always the "what we think he should do" and the "what he knows he should do." The two concepts will never be equal.

And if I were to find out that this being named God does exist...and there is a Heaven, and Hell, and all that...I don't know about you...but I'm going to give him the benefit of the doubt. Obviously, I would be forced to admit that there is a whole 'nother level of "out there", that I have yet to experience, and what I know about "existence" (on the human level) is suddenly so much less significant.

If all of the myth has been right, I'd kinda wanna be on God's side, when the shit hit the cosmic fan. I dunno about you...

Originally Posted by UM

That brings me to my next question. Am I more compassionate than God?

Don't know God. Don't know his motives. I couldn't rightfully compare you to someone who's logic I don't have the capacity to understand, now can I?

The bible makes it very clear that if God The Father/Creator were to transform into a mere human, you would cease to exist. In the bible it's said, if God looks away from creation, creation disappears! So your hypothetical question doesn't even make sense even if were limited to the biblical god

I don't think anyone could deserve eternal pain. So in principle I'd let him out; unless doing so meant he'd go back to his position as the almighty judge of life.

Originally Posted by juroara

The bible makes it very clear that if God The Father/Creator were to transform into a mere human, you would cease to exist. In the bible it's said, if God looks away from creation, creation disappears! So your hypothetical question doesn't even make sense even if were limited to the biblical god

You sure about that?

If God were to transform into a mere human, he would still be looking upon creation...only through the perspective of a human...which he, himself, created.

Oneironaut, The Bible doesn't say God is infinitely powerful just within this universe. It says he is infinitely powerful. It says there is nothing he cannot do. That takes away all excuses of "have to do this to get that", especially as they apply to genocide and eternal torture. You mentioned things about lessons in life, but how do you fit world genocide and eternal torture into it? Do you think there might be some kind of great value in those things? Do you think we might some day go, "A ha! THAT'S why those billions of people need to burn for eternity."?

Juroara, part of my hypothetical is that God goes to Hell after he becomes human and dies. It doesn't matter if that can't happen according to the Bible. I am talking about a Biblical character but in a hypothetical situation. Suppose the rule changed and reality is no longer dependent on his observation of it.

Originally Posted by Oneironaut

You sure about that?

If God were to transform into a mere human, he would still be looking upon creation...only through the perspective of a human...which he, himself, created.

When I think of 'creation', I think of the entire universe. That's a good chunk of creation that would disappear according to the bible!

Originally Posted by Universal Mind

Juroara, part of my hypothetical is that God goes to Hell after he becomes human and dies. It doesn't matter if that can't happen according to the Bible. I am talking about a Biblical character but in a hypothetical situation. Suppose the rule changed and reality is no longer dependent on his observation of it.

What's the point of your question? The spread the hatred of a biblical character you don't even believe is real? We can make hypothetical questions all day long, BUT WHAT'S THE POINT? Are you angry at this God that you feel a need to make a hypothetical situation that this God goes to hell?

If you don't believe in God, it's pretty insane to also be angry at this God

Originally Posted by juroara

What's the point of your question? The spread the hatred of a biblical character you don't even believe is real? We can make hypothetical questions all day long, BUT WHAT'S THE POINT? Are you angry at this God that you feel a need to make a hypothetical situation that this God goes to hell?

If you don't believe in God, it's pretty insane to also be angry at this God

Don't do that. It's meant to be an interesting question that calls God's morality into question. Either answer it or find another thread to whine in.

Why would I be angry at somebody I don't think is real? What a bizarre question. I also said I would let God out of Hell if he were there and I could.

Since he is supposed to judge souls I would probably allow him to try to explain his actions (or lack of). Then make a decision.

I would take advantage of the situation and let him out under certain conditions. Kind of like parole for god.

If he'd undo all the things he did that lead to hatred, genocide, rape, murder, etc (basically anything sinful not including ridiculous things like premarital sex). Also he'd need to undergo a serious personality change. I'd send him to see a psychiatrist; maybe an hour session on a daily basis. Take care of that jealousy and need for revenge. I think god would be a nice guy if he could just evolve a little bit and escape those medieval philosophies.

Originally Posted by Universal Mind

Oneironaut, The Bible doesn't say God is infinitely powerful just within this universe. It says he is infinitely powerful. It says there is nothing he cannot do. That takes away all excuses of "have to do this to get that", especially as they apply to genocide and eternal torture. You mentioned things about lessons in life, but how do you fit world genocide and eternal torture into it? Do you think there might be some kind of great value in those things? Do you think we might some day go, "A ha! THAT'S why those billions of people need to burn for eternity."?

Though the Bible was written from a human perspective.

When you ask me whether or not I would let God out, I base my answer on my own understanding of the myth, and all that it entails. Part of that understanding is the knowledge that God has his own agenda. That concept is all throughout the Bible as well, is it not? So, that leaves us to understand that we do not know/understand/perceive the same level of thinking God is on. This makes sense, because - as I said - it is no different from a child trying to foresee the perspective of his parent.

So when little Bobby on the playground says "DUDE, My dad can do ANYTHING!!" Is he thinking that his dad can do anything, in relation to his own perspective? No. He's just thinking that his dad can do anything. He doesn't have perspective yet...as far as he knows.

So when we are talking about the possibility of a God - as portrayed by the Bible - I have to take into account that the description of God is that of a human perspective. God would be a higher being. If God exists, I have to then wonder if the Bible is more truth than fiction. If the Bible IS more truth, I would have to wonder about the consequences of being so arrogant as to think God did not truly know what he was doing.

Would I be ready to be so arrogant? No.
That "reasonable doubt" - falling back upon the principle of the child not knowing what the parent is truly thinking - is the reason why I would not damn God to eternal fire.

Originally Posted by juroara

When I think of 'creation', I think of the entire universe. That's a good chunk of creation that would disappear according to the bible!

That's actually a very good point. I retract the previous statement.

I am not talking about what God might really be like if the infinite power aspect is something the human Bible writers got wrong. The scenario I described involves an infinitely powerful God. I don't mean he just seems infinitely powerful to us. I am talking about full blown, actually limitless power.

Do you think having infinite power somehow involves having to do anything? God has infinite power, yet he maybe somehow (and we just can't understand) had to commit world genocide and let billions of people burn forever? Is that your stance?

Originally Posted by juroara

The bible makes it very clear that if God The Father/Creator were to transform into a mere human, you would cease to exist. In the bible it's said, if God looks away from creation, creation disappears! So your hypothetical question doesn't even make sense even if were limited to the biblical god

Not to dispute you, but I'm seriously wondering where in the bible it says this.. mind helping me out a bit?

Originally Posted by Universal Mind

I am not talking about what God might really be like if the infinite power aspect is something the human Bible writers got wrong. The scenario I described involves an infinitely powerful God. I don't mean he just seems infinitely powerful to us. I am talking about full blown, actually limitless power.

The scenario you described involves the God that was depicted in the Bible. Where the Bible does say that God is all powerful, the Bible also says that God has a plan.

Given the amount of suffering in this world, the two variables seem contradictory, but that doesn't change the fact that they are both variables of the God in this scenario.

So, confused or not, you're still left with a choice:

A) Believe that God is all powerful, has no plan, and just doesn't care that you suffer - in which case the Bible is wrong.

B) Believe that God is all powerful, has a plan, and human suffering is essential for the plan to bear fruit - in which case the Bible is right.

C) Believe that God is not all powerful, and he can't stop suffering - in which case the Bible is wrong.

So, if you're talking about this God being a strict adherence to the Bible (and not just something the writers 'got wrong' - your words), you're really only left with one choice, aren't you?

If you're allowing for one deviation from the Bible's interpretation (God just not caring whether or not humans suffer), then you're allowing for my interpretation, where God may not be "omnipotent", beyond our level of understanding.

You see where I'm going with this?