Thread: The bible is well... less than perfect

Originally Posted by NeoSioType

I don't think anyone can deny that there's something seriously wrong with Christianity. Sure there's the basic message of God, Jesus and his forgiveness for our sins. But why are there so many denominations? Why so many beliefs all from the same book?

I consider myself a critical thinker and a Christian. I realize the Bible is a compilation of books which in themselves were excrepts from an earlier era (there no wonder contradictions are easily googled).

Above all this, these separate books were pretty much voted into canon by "qualified" people then translated eventually into English. There no wonder the thing is as cryptic as it is. Personally I have studied examples from the original hebrew pentateuch and I can very well understand how meaning is easily lost.

This poses many problems. There are those who take the Bible as literal fact, which doesn't work out so well... And then there are those who base their interpretations from this mess. I will say it: there is something seriously wrong here considering its supposed to be God's most holiest gift to man.

Well put. I think most people here will agree with you. Even a few centuries after Jesus' death the new testament was already being divided and cut up in order to best suit political purposes. It's a joke to take such a book literally.

However, regardless of it's source, which i'm quite convinced is not a celestial being, I do think there is value in the book.

As to why so many denominations: people have had their own little agendas and their own little ideas as to what the Bible means. When King Henry the somethingth wanted a divorce from his umpteenth wife and the pope wouldn't allow it, he officially made a denomination called Anglicanism where divorce was OK.

When Martin Luther was upset over the things the Catholic church did he posted the 95 Theses and started a movement that created Protestantism.

And then there are those who are more literal and those who are more allegorical when reading the Bible. As a Pentecostal I am very literal about what the Bible says. Other denominations may be more allegorical.

I do agree that it's odd how an infallible book called the Bible could be the result of a council convened by a Roman emperor for political reasons. I'm not sure how that would be explained, actually, unless there was LOTS of prayer for wisdom beforehand. Although if I'm not mistaken the Old Testament was already in existence before the council that would make the New Testament was formed.

As for translations and what they mean... it depends on the translation you are investigating. King James Version is a more word-to-word translation. New International Version is more of a meaning-to-meaning version. Another translation, The Message I believe, uses colorful wording to get the meaning across.

Originally Posted by Carôusoul

Well put. I think most people here will agree with you. Even a few centuries after Jesus' death the new testament was already being divided and cut up in order to best suit political purposes. It's a joke to take such a book literally.

However, regardless of it's source, which i'm quite convinced is not a celestial being, I do think there is value in the book.

Definitely. Its even evident in the four gospels. Points and details were altered so that the author could make the story seem more convincing to their target audience.

There's definitely a lot of value there as well though. The teachings of Christ, son of God or not, are at their core fundamentally pure ones. Its a joke that such clear messages can be so completely distorted by so many apparent 'followers'.

I don't know how a person can take the Bible as word of God. Several verses are quite obviously written by men, even in the old testament.

This is one that my mother uses to scare Jehova's Witnesses off:

Spoiler for Deuteronomy 25:11-12:

"If two men are fighting and the wife of one of them comes to rescue her husband by his assailant, and she reaches out and seizes him by his private parts, you shall cut off her hand. Show her no pity."

I am more interested in the holy texts that were purposely left out of the bible. Who and why did they do this?

We will never know the entire gospel of Magdalene as not all of it survived history. But had her gospel been included, the suffering of women would have ended 2000 years ago!

Originally Posted by juroara

We will never know the entire gospel of Magdalene as not all of it survived history. But had her gospel been included, the suffering of women would have ended 2000 years ago!

But women wouldn't have had free will.

Originally Posted by Odd_Nonposter

I don't know how a person can take the Bible as word of God. Several verses are quite obviously written by men, even in the old testament.

This is one that my mother uses to scare Jehova's Witnesses off:

Spoiler for Deuteronomy 25:11-12:

"If two men are fighting and the wife of one of them comes to rescue her husband by his assailant, and she reaches out and seizes him by his private parts, you shall cut off her hand. Show her no pity."

A lot of the commands like that, found in the more law-based books of the Old Testament (Deuteronomy, Leviticus, et. al.) have been rendered obsolete. The Law, as it is called, existed as it was back then because Jesus had not come. Now that Jesus has done is work, those who believe in him are not under Law and therefore not required to follow harsh things like that. But some of those laws still do apply.

Soup is soup whatever the flavor

Water the common ingrediant...

Boil the water from it and keep it well

Feed the rest to the dogs

Originally Posted by NonDualistic

ingrediant...

Gentlemen!

Originally Posted by Odd_Nonposter

"Deuteronomy 25:11-12"]"If two men are fighting and the wife of one of them comes to rescue her husband by his assailant, and she reaches out and seizes him by his private parts, you shall cut off her hand. Show her no pity."

Hahaha! I had never heard that one. I guess there's more than one reason why kicking is a better choice, then.

Originally Posted by juroara

I am more interested in the holy texts that were purposely left out of the bible. Who and why did they do this?

The texts were apparently chosen and compiled by some church VIP - I can't remember who and can't seem to find a name right now, I saw this on TV once - who then, in good old christian fashion, proceeded to destroy the ones he didn't like.
The reason was supposedly to organize and strenghten the young church in order to better survive whatever crisis was going on at the time. It would be easier for christianity if everyone refered to the same texts - as opposed of randomly choosing from the many existant - and shared one same belief.

I find it somewhat amusing that the book so many people see as the ultimate truth could have turned out to be quite a bit different if the guy that compiled it had fallen down a stair and died, leaving other to do the choosing for him.
Funny how things work...

Originally Posted by Sylph

The texts were apparently chosen and compiled by some church VIP - I can't remember who and can't seem to find a name right now, I saw this on TV once - who then, in good old christian fashion, proceeded to destroy the ones he didn't like.
The reason was supposedly to organize and strenghten the young church in order to better survive whatever crisis was going on at the time. It would be easier for christianity if everyone refered to the same texts - as opposed of randomly choosing from the many existant - and shared one same belief.

I find it somewhat amusing that the book so many people see as the ultimate truth could have turned out to be quite a bit different if the guy that compiled it had fallen down a stair and died, leaving other to do the choosing for him.
Funny how things work...

I believe you mean the council of nicaea: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Council_of_Nicaea

I did google that one up, but I don't think it's what I'm talking about. The story was about a man in particular and he just decided what texts should stick, not the rules the church would enforce. I think this happened before Constatine and that's why they were having trouble.
Damn it , I wish I could remember the name!

Originally Posted by Universal Mind

You irk both my Christian side and my Star Wars fan side. Well done!

Originally Posted by NeoSioType

I don't think anyone can deny that there's something seriously wrong with Christianity. Sure there's the basic message of God, Jesus and his forgiveness for our sins. But why are there so many denominations? Why so many beliefs all from the same book?

I consider myself a critical thinker and a Christian. I realize the Bible is a compilation of books which in themselves were excrepts from an earlier era (there no wonder contradictions are easily googled).

Above all this, these separate books were pretty much voted into canon by "qualified" people then translated eventually into English. There no wonder the thing is as cryptic as it is. Personally I have studied examples from the original hebrew pentateuch and I can very well understand how meaning is easily lost.

This poses many problems. There are those who take the Bible as literal fact, which doesn't work out so well... And then there are those who base their interpretations from this mess. I will say it: there is something seriously wrong here considering its supposed to be God's most holiest gift to man.

Imagine Jesus as the highest level of consciousness one can achieve, a person with unconditional love and power.

Now imagine those who practice his teachings, these people are hardly at a high enough level of consciousness in order to fully comprehend His teachings. The crusades and the like are prime examples, low conscious beings misinterpreting teachings from a high conscious being.

There are so many beliefs because people with a low consciousness interpret
them at a lower level than Him. Denominations are sometimes based on a single verse and certain translations of the bible are less true than the originals.

Basically, the message is diminished by those who cannot comprehend, therefore allowing more who cannot comprehend to diminish the message further. Christianity today is nothing like it was when it first began.

Personally I don't agree that there is something wrong with Christianity itself. It has just been taught by infinitely less than qualified persons.

One can not 'achieve' becoming Jesus if that's what you mean...

If there is anything wrong with modern Christianity (my religion) it is a) the factionization of the Church to suit agendas or personal beleifs and b) hypocrisy within some churches.

And about Catholicism specifically, they seem to worship the Virgin Mary as if she were somehow more holy than anyone else. She was a human being who happened to be chosen to give birth to Christ incarnate. This leads to a certain hypocrisy within the Catholic church as the Bible forbids the worship of any other god.

Originally Posted by Rickrold

One can not 'achieve' becoming Jesus if that's what you mean...

No, that's not what i meant.

Originally Posted by Rickrold

One can not 'achieve' becoming Jesus if that's what you mean...

What if, in a thousand years for example, we manufacture an artificial Jesus. The one with the right DNA and brain. That clone would achieve in becoming Jesus. No?

Originally Posted by Bonsay

What if, in a thousand years for example, we manufacture an artificial Jesus. The one with the right DNA and brain. That clone would achieve in becoming Jesus. No?

Maybe it also depends on what kind of world the potential Jesus lives in for him to become a real Jesus, and not just DNA. Perhaps it also depends on God's will. Perhaps the original Jesus had God's consciousness within him, but if God refuses to put his consciousness in another potential Jesus, that potential Jesus may just end up becoming a normal person.