Thread: Faith, Fair or unfair?

Good questions

But you are really limiting yourself when you only approach Christianity and the Judeo-Christian God.

Many people make that mistake, that just because (if) the bible does not makes sense, the concepts are flawed and too many questions are left unsolved, then ALL concepts of something that is none physical or simliar are wrong.

Okay, let us assume that your questions are valid and you conclude that it does not makes sense. You can either say, "that's it, all that are not objective nor scientifically proved (yet) is nonsense" Or you can go further, in search for new conclusions.

I did only talk about Christianity and the Judeo-Christian God. The reason, is that I do not know any other religion as well as I know Christianity which the only stuff I know about it is what I learned in Religion class.

I am not trying to prove God or other religions false. Anyways, that faith is unfair doesn't stop God from existing. (Again I'm forgetting the other religions)

Well, as far as I know, none if the other Gods of the other religions have came to us to tell us they do indeed exist so it all comes to the same, the person that's up there, that created us and that is considered as a god is not giving any proof of His/Her existence. Because of all the scientific logic on earth, it even looks like He's/She's trying to hide His/Her existence.

My point is, can the god (from whichever religion that might be) really expect us to believe in Her/Him if they're not coming to tell us wi once in a while? My conclusion to this is that they don't want us to know about them yet. I believe that the really God (if there is any) is none that we know or else we'd most likely know. Why would a God that makes his three first comendments about believing in him and only him not show himself to his people? Or another conclusion could be that there are no Gods at all. Or that God (from any religion) indeed exists and that this God (of any religion) has harsh expectetions of us (to my opinion) or another conclusion might be that he abandonned us and that He/She created another world that listens more to His/her wills. I'd rather my first conclusion being true... But again, its just my opinion,.

This is why I avoid religon altogether.

Originally Posted by SleepyCookieDough

Some people sometimes tell me that because I don't believe in God I will go in Hell. I don't know if that can be supported by the Bible or anything but it made me thought.

Why do you care?

Could a God create a planet and make it so scientificly logic that the idea of a god would be scientificly impossible and then send a man to tell the whole world that God exists and then expect people 2009 years after that day to believe in Him? I mean, in 2009, even with the Bible, what are the prooves that what it says is true and that Jesus once existed? Many people say the Bible has to be interprated the right way. If that's true, then which of it is a fact? Is Jesus a fact or just another subject to read between the lines.

The idea of god hasn't been excluded by science. I'd say we are a long way away from that point if it is true. As for interpreting the bible the correct way, just interpret it in a way that seems correct to you. Reading the bible from a non-believer stand point can offer enlightening realizations that have nothing to do with Christianity. Read the words Jesus spoke himself, these can be interpreted in numerous ways. I like the gnostic/mystical interpretations better than the standard religious ones myself.

Can God expect us to believe in him without coming once a month and tell us his will. I'm sure it wouldn't be so hard for him if he's so powerful; he must not have lots to do anyways. If all he does is watch us and hear are prayers, why doesn't he just come down and say hi once in a while? Or did he create another planet for which he is far more interested?

He comes often enough. His last incarnation was Meher Baba. Wasn't too long ago.

Personnaly, I think that if we were put on Earth without being told what are life is all about, its because either, there is nothing after life and science can explain everything OR we aren't supposed to know anything about it yet and that all we're supposed to do now, are things that you can easily realise. For exemple, its obvious we're not suppose to harm other people and that we have to be respectful.

Science can't explain everything. At lest not yet. And yes, the simple things are the most important. Example: Love, Respect, Compassion, Forgiveness.

How fun would a book be to read if they were all like:

Guy falls in love with woman
Guy is from one family and woman is from another
The families are enemy's
Guy fakes his death so he can run away with Woman
Woman thinks Guy is dead, so she kills herself
Guy wakes up and kills himself too

What goodness would there be in achieving instant enlightenment? It's about the journey.

Originally Posted by grasshoppa

Why do you care?

I don't care, I used that as an introduction to what I wanted to say.

Originally Posted by grasshoppa

The idea of god hasn't been excluded by science. I'd say we are a long way away from that point if it is true. As for interpreting the bible the correct way, just interpret it in a way that seems correct to you. Reading the bible from a non-believer stand point can offer enlightening realizations that have nothing to do with Christianity. Read the words Jesus spoke himself, these can be interpreted in numerous ways. I like the gnostic/mystical interpretations better than the standard religious ones myself.

I am not saying everything can be prooved by science, I am saying that one of the conclusion is that reality might be what scientifics think it is, which is not what i personnaly wish. I do interpret some of the parts of the Bible in my own way and find it really well, however you could find any new enlightning ethical views from any random text. I do (maybe not enlightning or anything but I can still find good ethical morals in any random text).

Originally Posted by grasshoppa

He comes often enough. His last incarnation was Meher Baba. Wasn't too long ago.

Why does he have to hide?

Originally Posted by grasshoppa

Science can't explain everything. At lest not yet. And yes, the simple things are the most important. Example: Love, Respect, Compassion, Forgiveness.

Yes.

Originally Posted by grasshoppa

How fun would a book be to read if they were all like:

Guy falls in love with woman
Guy is from one family and woman is from another
The families are enemy's
Guy fakes his death so he can run away with Woman
Woman thinks Guy is dead, so she kills herself
Guy wakes up and kills himself too

What goodness would there be in achieving instant enlightenment? It's about the journey.

That all comes to my theory: we aren't suppose to know. We're suppose to do our own journey.
I am not blamming God for not being present, I am blamming Faith of being unfair if it is what God is relying on. He should only expect us to do good deeds, being good samaritans, but to believe in him? Without showing himself? That's a bit too much. I'm not saying he does. Everything people say about God is mostly our own point of view, what humans think of God, does God really think that way? Who knows. Are the commendments even his? Or were they changed?

I don't personnaly care, I'm just throwing that out for people to talk about it.

Originally Posted by SleepyCookieDough

Why does he have to hide?

He was pretty popular in the 60's when he started to address the drug culture.

Originally Posted by grasshoppa

The idea of god hasn't been excluded by science.

As much as the idea that a flying spaghetti monster created the universe.

Originally Posted by Scatterbrain

As much as the idea that a flying spaghetti monster created the universe.

I've felt the saucy tentacles of the FSM. Have you?

Originally Posted by grasshoppa

I've felt the saucy tentacles of the FSM. Have you?

Yes.

I used to have that problem too. I went through a rough few years when I actually HATED God. That was one of the problems I kept running into.

Thankfully, I started studying again and with some help I finally understood that there is no fiery hell that unbelievers and sinners are sent to... and ESPECIALLY not people who never even had a chance to learn about God.

My brain is too foggy right now to give too precise info but I'll try to point out at least a couple things.

1) When God created Adam and Eve he told them if they ate from the tree in the center of the garden ***they would die***. He did not tell them they would be confined in Hell or go to a Heavenly realm. He created mankind for the purpose of populating the earth and taking care of it.

Along comes the Devil who spoke through a snake. God's plans were put on hold when Adam and Eve decided to choose for themselves Satan's ways instead of God's.

2) God once had a sovereign nation- Israel. They agreed to do all he said and when they did they were blessed and when they didn't they went through some horrible times. They rejected Christ, though, so "their house became abandoned to them". God no longer had any sovereign nation. By the time the Gentiles came along, the word of God was being spread through many lands (as well as many cults and apostate sects).

3) In the book of Proverbs, God likens searching for spiritual treasure to the seaching of material treasure. I like to say: "If someone told you that a million dollars were burried in your backyard, would you go out there with a spoon? Or would you use a shovel and maybe have some friends come over and help you? You would find some hidden gems pecking around with a spoon sooner or later but you would find more by working more."
God gave us the Bible. That book has been through a LOT during its time on earth. Scribes have falsely written entire chapters to mislead believers. God's own name (occurring some 7,000 times in earliest manuscripts) was removed. Apostates infiltrated as if wolves in sheep clothing to devour the faithful of God.
But when you REALLY delve into the Bible and place the info in context with the times, the peoples and the other Books, it is in complete harmony.

History and scientists can now confirm many of the events that took place in Biblical times. One thing unique about the Bible is the candor of the men penning it. They mentioned dates, rulers in power, the wrongful deeds of themselves and their people (something almost always played down by most people). Even Kings and Priests revealed deep shames.

As for planets... I think we are alone for now. I think planets will become habitable places for mankind in the future (after Satan and the wicked are destroyed and Earth becomes a perfect Paradise).
I've tried writting stories about what those planets may come to be like, but I've never written so much as a single sentence lol *sigh*.
Would they be duplicate earths? Or something completely unique to further trade, study and personal enjoyment?

Anyhow... hope this has helped some.
If not, I'm very sorry.

1) When God created Adam and Eve he told them if they ate from the tree in the center of the garden ***they would die***. He did not tell them they would be confined in Hell or go to a Heavenly realm. He created mankind for the purpose of populating the earth and taking care of it.

You're supposed to take that story and many others as metaphors, they didn't really happen.

History and scientists can now confirm many of the events that took place in Biblical times.

Not any of the magic stuff though, if that's what you were implying.

As for planets... I think we are alone for now.

In our galaxy? Maybe. In the Universe? Not likely.

I think planets will become habitable places for mankind in the future (after Satan and the wicked are destroyed and Earth becomes a perfect Paradise).

Are you serious here?

Do you believe in Jesus? Even he believed IN Adam and Eve. In fact, in his geneology, Adam is listed.

Correct... history and science can comfirm a lot of events (though not the divinely and demonically "magical" stuff). But, if the Bible proves itself to be trustworthy and truthful at every possible turn, why doubt other aspects simply because it's hard to wrap our minds around them?

"I think planets will become habitable places for mankind in the future (after Satan and the wicked are destroyed and Earth becomes a perfect Paradise)."
To which you asked:
"Are you serious here?"

I am completely serious. Anyone who believes in God and trusts the Bible should have similar convictions. To us, it's not some pipe dream but an absolute certainty.

Originally Posted by Zhaylin

Do you believe in Jesus? Even he believed IN Adam and Eve. In fact, in his geneology, Adam is listed.

No.

Correct... history and science can comfirm a lot of events (though not the divinely and demonically "magical" stuff). But, if the Bible proves itself to be trustworthy and truthful at every possible turn, why doubt other aspects simply because it's hard to wrap our minds around them?

I guess you're right.

Hey, I just found out that King's Cross station, mentioned in the Harry Potter books, actually exists! The books were telling the truth there, so the magical Platform 9¾ must exist as well!

"I think planets will become habitable places for mankind in the future (after Satan and the wicked are destroyed and Earth becomes a perfect Paradise)."
To which you asked:
"Are you serious here?"

I am completely serious. Anyone who believes in God and trusts the Bible should have similar convictions. To us, it's not some pipe dream but an absolute certainty.

Actually, 90% of the people I know are Christians and I've never heard them talking of destroying anything.

Christians aren't doing the destroying, God is

But yeah.. a lot of Christians think they're going to be angels sitting on clouds in front of pearly gates.
More ??? precisely and deeply educated Christians, however, know the earth will never be destroyed and most of mankind will live forever on a perfect planet.
A lot of incredibly faithful and intelligent Christians know that this world and life are NOT what God intended, but they simply don't understand (or weren't taught) the details.

Why faith in the Abrahamic God? Why not in Zeus or Vishnu?

And we're wagering our souls here, assuming they even exist. Yet you sit there and smile, unaware of it being a scam, even if the pastor/priest/witch doctor walked up, sat in your lap, stared at you with big, puppy dog eyes and asked you for a dollar a week to "fund the ministry".

High Priest: Great wall of prophecy Bible, reveal to us the will of God, so that we may blindly obey!
Priests: Free us from thought and responsibility!
High Priest: We shall read things off you!
Priests: Then do them!
High Priest: Your words guide us!
Priests: We're dumb!

Believers aren't stupid.
(I am not a believer, and happy of it)
but seriously, would you call someone stupid for doing what the majority of people do? Besides, they don't do it because they were brainwashed, they do it because they feel the need to know what their lives are all about. The proof that they are not brainwashed is that they do have their phases in which they have doubts, that's why they think everyone has phases. Some of them stop believing, some figure out it might be true. It's their own choice. I think that drinking and doing drugs is far more retarded than believing. What do you know? Maybe there right and I'm sure you'll look pretty damn dumb when the earth becomes a paradise.

PS. i do not believe in that stuff but I'm just saying that we should never make a fact of something we have NO knowledge of. That goes both ways by the way.

have a nice day

Originally Posted by SleepyCookieDough

but seriously, would you call someone stupid for doing what the majority of people do?

YES, I would, there's even a trite insult especially made for this.

Originally Posted by SleepyCookieDough

Some people sometimes tell me that because I don't believe in God I will go in Hell. I don't know if that can be supported by the Bible or anything but it made me thought.

Could a God create a planet and make it so scientificly logic that the idea of a god would be scientificly impossible and then send a man to tell the whole world that God exists and then expect people 2009 years after that day to believe in Him? I mean, in 2009, even with the Bible, what are the prooves that what it says is true and that Jesus once existed? Many people say the Bible has to be interprated the right way. If that's true, then which of it is a fact? Is Jesus a fact or just another subject to read between the lines.

Can God expect us to believe in him without coming once a month and tell us his will. I'm sure it wouldn't be so hard for him if he's so powerful; he must not have lots to do anyways. If all he does is watch us and hear are prayers, why doesn't he just come down and say hi once in a while? Or did he create another planet for which he is far more interested?

Personnaly, I think that if we were put on Earth without being told what are life is all about, its because either, there is nothing after life and science can explain everything OR we aren't supposed to know anything about it yet and that all we're supposed to do now, are things that you can easily realise. For exemple, its obvious we're not suppose to harm other people and that we have to be respectful.

Zing, zing, zing! assuming there was a god, he would be beyond our understanding. He would be the creator of the universe, we don't even know if the universe is never ending or not. The whole purpose of being alive is not to know the secrets of life, it's to find our own way.

Of course, that is assuming there is a god....

but seriously, would you call someone stupid for doing what the majority of people do?

If majority of people jumped off a bridge, would you do it too?

Originally Posted by tnemrot

YES, I would, there's even a trite insult especially made for this.

Originally Posted by LucidFlanders

If majority of people jumped off a bridge, would you do it too?

I do agree that following the same path as others is stupid but don't talk about the bridge thing 'cause thats a whole other thing. Religion and commiting suicide has nothing in common.

I'm just saying you can't blame someone for doing something completly natural. Who doesn't wish they knew what their life was all about? Who doesn't wish there was someone out there listening to them when they prayed? Who doesn't wish for somebody to more powerful of all that loves you and everyone? Who doesn't wish that that somebody will one day make Earth perfect? Who doesn't wish that there is something after death? Well, I don't you think you can call someone stupid for wishing.
I personnally don't wish 'cause I fine wishing useless, but you can't call someone stupid for that when everyone on Earth has his/her stupid side. I mean, the ones that make war (i know lots of them are caused by religions but even without religions, these people would fine a reason to make a war), the people that do drugs and all the alcoholics. All the people the people that cry when they don't get what they want.

Anyways, I just thought people were being to insulting and I'm not a believer but I don't see why I'd insult someone that does, that's just as stupid.

Actually it is the same, you said yourself

but seriously, would you call someone stupid for doing what the majority of people do?

They may be different subjects, but the rules still apply. Just because alot of people do 1 thing, does not mean it's right. You don't follow what others do because the majority of them do this or that.

The idea that God needs your Faith, is silly to begin with

Adding hell to the mix just gets things ridiculous. Any christian who professes to believe in an all loving God who sends people to hell, are suffering from something. What I dont know.

The two can't be mixed. You can't have an all loving God sending people to hell. And what happens more often is, if you really, and I mean really harass these people about how they really feel about God - eventually they will admit - They don't think God is all that loving.

Instead they have a fear based relationship with a God, who they think is up there in heaven far separate from them. Judging them, measuring them, weighing them, every moment. A judgmental, serious, no-nonsense, up-tight jerk.

This point of view separates christians from the truth, including the truth of what Jesus taught

When Jesus said that Heaven is within you, this places God within you. And when God is within you, well the whole picture changes! Why would God need your Faith, when the two of you aren't actually separate? Why would God send you to hell, when sending you to hell, sends Godself to hell?

The heart of Jesus message, that humanity and God are One - go largely unnoticed by Christianity. This was no accident, the truth of Jesus message was suppressed by the blade of sword, so that the Catholic Church could rule. And how could the Catholic Church could rule, if you needed no Church to be One with God? For this reason, the gnostics were murdered.

There is not a single christian in the world who as an adult is so indoctrinated that they can't question their own faith. They can! If I can question the catholic church as a 12 year old, any adult christian can question their faith. Why don't they question is either because they have a problem with their identity/ego.

Christians who hold onto the idea that God sends people to hell, and worse, feel the right to point fingers at atheists or homosexuals - are like the fundamentalists. They have an egotistical need to be divinely right. This makes them BETTER than you. It makes them WORTH more. If you are hell sent, and they are heaven bound, it becomes a way to fuel their ego! In fact, the more people who are hell sent the better. The more special they are. (jehova witness?)

Now, there are still many old fashioned christians out there, and thats not necessarily the case. All it takes for them to make the switch is to have a loved one who is either atheist or homosexual. This is what happened to my very old fashioned grand parents.

When their youngest boy *my uncle* died from AIDs, it was traumatic for the whole family. But can you imagine what it was like, to honestly believe homosexuals burn in hell, and every night tossing and turning because you're so worried if your youngest son is burning in hell? Your son, who you will never see again, because he's in hell and you're going to heaven?

Just for a moment put yourself in those shoes, it's not fun.

My grand parents couldn't hold onto the old catholic dogma that their beloved son was burning in hell. They believed, as we all did, he deserved to be in heaven. What kind of God loves less than a human? A God not deserving of worship.

So now my grand parents believe their son is in heaven, and God no longer is this God that sends people to hell for such trivial stupid reasons.

Now thousands of Catholics have made the switch. Many because they lost a loved one to AIDs.

But heres the thing that really pisses me off. . . . . They still consider themself Catholic. But the Catholic Church has not changed its doctrine!! It sill says God sends people to hell!! If you believe God is not sending people to hell, you're not Catholic.

Why do they call themself Catholic when their beliefs no longer fit into the Catholic doctrine?

Catholics are told they are the number one Christian. That they are the true Church of Christ. Sure there are other christians, but they are LESS. Being Catholic makes you WORTH MORE than other christians, and certainly, worth more than atheists.

To stop being Catholic, means you're no longer apart of the 'elite' christian group.

You've placed the blame on Faith.

The real blame goes to the human ego. And the need to belong to a group that is better than some other group. In this case, Catholics are better than all other christians and atheists. In the extreme of this ego, we get people who enjoy pointing fingers screaming hell-sent!

I agree with some of what you said, Juroara but I'm confused about one thing:
"If you are hell sent, and they are heaven bound, it becomes a way to fuel their ego! In fact, the more people who are hell sent the better. The more special they are. (jehova witness?)"

Jehovah's Witnesses do NOT believe in Hell. We believe Hell is the common grave of mankind. The Bible says that Jesus was in hell for 3 days (but he's righteous so it obviously wasn't a place of fiery torture).

Jehovah's Witnesses believe that ALL of mankind has the chance to be resurrected because the Bible says: "There will be a resurrection of the righteous and the unrighteous" (to paraphrase John 5:28 and Acts 24:15)
When we die, our sins are paid for "The wages of sin is death" (Romans 6:23)
If after being resurrected, a person still refuses to accept God and live by his commands, then that person will be destroyed forever (no hell).

Some people, however, will not be resurrected. Those are people who know the truth and still refuse to obey (and when I say "Know" I mean to know something absolutely without mental/emotional defect) and those who heard the message of truth and refused to listen further (but God decides when and who those are because sometimes a person has to hear something many times before it really reaches their heart TO listen).
But among the list are Adam and Eve and the people who died in the flood during Noah's day.

I hope this has cleared up some questions for you.

I revel in the fact that the Bible is new when compared to the age of our race.. and than I know that it can't be real.

Adam and Eve.. are supposed to be the first yet ancient man doesn't praise the God of Jehovah and Yahweh..(Because the religion wasn't started for many many eons after our earliest ancestors.)