Thread: Unfair Punishement Of Adam And Eve

I really don't understand how eating a random apple deserves being thrown out of the garden of eden. Would you ever beat your children if they ate a apple when you told them not too. Also eve eating the apple first seems abit sexist and I read of passages saying woman are the cause of sin. Can someone explain how adam and eve deserved their punishment?
Also evolutionary speaking we came from apes so how would the creation myth go with evolution as the story of adam and eve must be a myth.

God told us not to do something. And we did it. We sinned. This seperated us from God. We were then unable to be with God anymore.

Would you ever beat your children if they ate a apple when you told them not too.[/b]

This is because sin has become normal for us. Now we think it is normal to sin, and it is.

Also eve eating the apple first seems abit sexist and I read of passages saying woman are the cause of sin.[/b]

It's not just a story. If it was a story maybe it'd be sexist but that's really what happened. So it's just saying what happened. Anyways, one of them had to eat the apple first, and either way you could say it's sexist...

Also evolutionary speaking we came from apes so how would the creation myth go with evolution as the story of adam and eve must be a myth.[/b]

It's not proven that we came from apes which means the Creation is not proven false.

Originally Posted by Jeremysr

God told us not to do something. And we did it. We sinned. This seperated us from God. We were then unable to be with God anymore.[/b]

"We" sinned by eating the fruit in the Garden of Eden when a snake said to? What do you mean "we"? I know I didn't. Did you? Did any of your friends or relatives? Even maybe some guy you walked past on a sidewalk a long time ago? Anybody you have ever met? Any of the six billion people presently living? Anybody who has been alive on Earth in the past five thousand years? Why are you saying "We"? Two people did it, supposedly. It makes no sense to punish a person for what somebody else did. If I rob a bank, is it fair if you go to jail for it? Even more importantly, if I rob a bank, does it make sense to jail everybody in the world and every person ever born in the future for it?

If the first two humans can wreck the world that bad by eating a piece of fruit, I'm glad they went ahead and did it instead of waiting for somebody to go on a mass rape and murder spree. Then I would be blamed for something really terrible, and the world would be much more screwed up. And if the very first person ever to live committed a sin and screwed up everything, don't you think somebody was going to wreck things by a few billion people later? We were put in a shaky situation that was completely guaranteed to fail from the beginning.

Originally Posted by Jeremysr

He put an angel to guard the garden from anyone. I've always wondered if the angel is still there [/b]

The Garden of Eden was supposedly in what is now Iraq. The angel was recently killed by a suicide bomber in the name of Allah.

'The Fall' is allegory written by men so likely to have some embedded sexism - (original sexism?)

Originally Posted by Universal

"We" sinned by eating the fruit in the Garden of Eden when a snake said to? What do you mean "we"?[/b]

Sin means: 'without' God

Before the (symbolic) eating of the apple, there was no sin as mankind was not aware of himself as a separate entity (like animals?) therefore by definition we were at one with 'God' (God obviously needs defining here...)

Good and evil didn't even exist - because man was not aware of the distinction, in the same way that an animal or innocent child cannot sin.

At some point in our history we were animals - later we became human.
The eating of the apple symbolises this transition.

Okay, how is truth sexist? And when your talking about evolution and Adam and Eve thats like adding a positive to a negative. To answer your question, God had given everything they needed to survive, and there was only one rule: Dont eat from the tree in the middle of the garden! Unfortunately that rule was broken. Sucks for us.

Note that I don't believe in God or the story of Adam and Eve, but Eve eating the apple is not sexist. If the story is true, its because of Eve eating the apple that women were looked down upon. If its true, they writings are only recollections of the events that happened. If the story is true, its because of Eve eating the apple and damning the human race that women were looked down upon, because of what a woman did. If Eve had not of eaten the apple, then there would've been no reason for people to look down on women and thus no sexism. Woman being 'inferior' was because of the story of Adam and Eve, not the other way around.

The reason that the punishment was so severe was because of Eve defying the almighty God, and eating from the Tree of Knowledge. She disobeyed God's word, disobeyed the word of the all knowing, the almighty, the omnipotent, omnibenevolent God.

Now again, I don't believe in this stuff.

well i wouldn't call the story sexist, it's just an excuse for a persicussion of women in the past( and present). The punishment seems harsh but if we follow the old testement then God isn't exactly all loving anyway. Of course you could argue that God made us with temptation and so already knew we would fail his test.

Also for people replying, remember she does not mean we evolved from the monkeys and apes of our day( this is usually the main part in the arguement against humans coming from primates). We shared a common ansestor and at various points in time the species we know now split off from that creature. This is why we share alot of DNA with chimps, as eventidently us and them were the last split before the original creature no longer existed.

Really the story ( though quite a few people i know take it literally) is an excuse or explanation of why there is suffering. We don't like it and so we would like to think there could be a place without it. The story that we caused it originally makes more people accept this life and life a good life because there's going to be a perfect place when they die, which brings you to fear of death, which i believe is one of the main causes of religion.

Originally Posted by joey11223

well i wouldn't call the story sexist, it's just an excuse for a persicussion of women in the past( and present). The punishment seems harsh but if we follow the old testement then God isn't exactly all loving anyway. Of course you could argue that God made us with temptation and so already knew we would fail his test.[/b]

Read the New Testament. Then you'll see how loving God is!

God didn't make temptation. The Devil tempted us.

Originally Posted by Jeremysr

Read the New Testament. Then you'll see how loving God is!

God didn't make temptation. The Devil tempted us.[/b]

Read the old testament, and you'll see how much of an angry S.O.B God was. Causing mass Genocides and all. Yeah, SO loving.

Originally Posted by ExoByte

Read the old testament, and you'll see how much of an angry S.O.B God was. Causing mass Genocides and all. Yeah, SO loving.[/b]

I don't know exactly which part you're thinking of. But the Flood was the worst part probably. He killed all those people in the Flood because the world became so evil. People were killing, stealing, etc. So he regretted making us, and wiped all of us out except Noah. Then we were pretty good. Not perfect, but we still knew killing and stealing was wrong and cared about at least a few other people besides ourselves.

God's angry, but not angry like a lot of us get. He doesn't kill off a bunch of people just because he feels like it to let his anger go.

Perhaps the story is more symbolic than literal? I mean, the entire book is symbolically LOADED, and that's coming from a very strong believer of Christianity.

The punishment that would of only work and why it was that punishment cause there was a tree of life in the garden that give humans everlasting life which God could not allowed to happen and why did he did not destroy the tree will i don't know for sure yet.


~~Faken

He put an angel to guard the garden from anyone. I've always wondered if the angel is still there

Originally Posted by Jeremysr

He put an angel to guard the garden from anyone. I've always wondered if the angel is still there [/b]

Yes he still there i just want to find the place where it at and just take a look inside from a far view away or see what the angel look like.

It is all about symbols, reflections.
There is something which needs to be made very clear for this to make sense: the Bible is a spiritual book having to do with spiritual things and NOT worldly events (history is but a reflection). So this means that this story did not happen some time long ago and it is not about the first humans, but is happening right NOW and is about our own inner states. The spiritual exists in the moment and cannot be reduced to earthly time and space, which are symbols of spiritual realities. Spiritual events are happening in the moment, not in time.

The Garden is the Self, its trees the perceptions of love and intelligence. When the Tree of Life is in the center of the Garden, it symbolizes our internal state of love and direct perception of Heaven. There is one tree which we must not "eat the fruit" of - and that is the Tree of Knowledge (knowledge of death). When we place this tree at the center of the Garden (that is to say when this becomes our state of being, our consciousness), love is no longer what guides our knowledge and so we do not have direct knowledge of the suprasensory things. In this state of being, we subject knowledge of suprasensory things to the postulates, laws, and demonstrations of empirical knowledge; but unable to succeed, we declare that suprasensory things are nonexistent. We do this because we have created the illusion that our outer selves are separate from the Principle within ourselves. We think we are only our outer selves and so cut off ourselves from our inner knowledge (expel ourselves from Heaven). This state of being, where we believe we our only our outer selves (the symbol), is our personal hell - devoid of the connection to the Principle.

Now, the symbolism with Eve. All thoughts of the children Adam and Eve being "punished" by their father are completely off topic and nonsensical. Anyone who thinks that women are the cause of sin don't have a clue what they are talking about and need to resolve some issues within themselves. Again, a spiritual book is not describing sensory events, but rather spiritual ones. Actually, the whole point of the Adam and Eve story is precisely the problem that people have when they try to interpret the Bible literally. Adam (masculine) symbolizes the outer (knowledge, intellect) and Eve (feminine) symbolizes the inner (love, faith). Eve is man's outer self vivified by the inner Principle. This is why Eve is said to be created of Adam's rib because the rib symbolizes the dead, bony outer self (that protects the esoteric) that needs to be brought to life by putting the esoteric (feminine) within. This is also why Eve is the one to eat the fruit of the Tree of Knowledge, because it is this outer self that creates the problem of the want of power for itself (again this has nothing to do with women, but with the feminine principle within each of us). When this fall in consciousness occurs, we cut off the esoteric from ourselves. And so we must proceed by taking symbols back to their source (ta'wil). We can only understand the spiritual by way of symbols and indirectly until we realize that our outer selves are not separate from our inner Principle (God).

Originally Posted by wendylove

Also eve eating the apple first seems abit sexist and I read of passages saying woman are the cause of sin.[/b]

But women are evil... it is mathematically proven!

ps. I love women...

Originally Posted by Universal

"We" sinned by eating the fruit in the Garden of Eden when a snake said to? What do you mean "we"? I know I didn't. Did you? Did any of your friends or relatives? Even maybe some guy you walked past on a sidewalk a long time ago? Anybody you have ever met? Any of the six billion people presently living? Anybody who has been alive on Earth in the past five thousand years? Why are you saying "We"? Two people did it, supposedly. It makes no sense to punish a person for what somebody else did. If I rob a bank, is it fair if you go to jail for it? Even more importantly, if I rob a bank, does it make sense to jail everybody in the world and every person ever born in the future for it?

If the first two humans can wreck the world that bad by eating a piece of fruit, I'm glad they went ahead and did it instead of waiting for somebody to go on a mass rape and murder spree. Then I would be blamed for something really terrible, and the world would be much more screwed up. And if the very first person ever to live committed a sin and screwed up everything, don't you think somebody was going to wreck things by a few billion people later? We were put in a shaky situation that was completely guaranteed to fail from the beginning.



The Garden of Eden was supposedly in what is now Iraq. The angel was recently killed by a suicide bomber in the name of Allah.[/b]

When adam and eve sinned that had sin in them and when the had childern there sin was pass throught them to the kids and , anyway if you had problem with it why you sinned and the first place

"and anyway if you had a problem why it mess up that two people why you sinned in the first place?"

Could you please, PLEASE, formulate that in normal english, please... I can't understand anything of that O_o


P.S. I must say I'm with Universal thingie (mind?) on this one...

Adam (masculine) symbolizes the outer (knowledge, intellect) and Eve (feminine) symbolizes the inner (love, faith). Eve is man's outer self vivified by the inner Principle.[/b]

Your saying woman represent emotion and men represent knowledge. Sounds pretty sexist to me as woman have the same amount of knoledge and intellect as a man.

When adam and eve sinned that had sin in them and when the had childern there sin was pass throught them to the kids and anyway if you had a problem why it mess up that two people why you sinned in the first place?[/b]

The point of what Universal Mind is trying to make is that we didn't sin and we are getting punished. Now you say sin gets passed down so by your logic if your farther was a seriel rapist and a muderer by defult you will inherit his sins so your screwed. Although I don't know if Universal Mind has sinned, but getting your parent and their parents sin is unfair.

God's angry, but not angry like a lot of us get. He doesn't kill off a bunch of people just because he feels like it to let his anger go.[/b]

Unless your gay.

The Bible is anti semetic too as the jews killed jesus and let a muderer go free instead. Also the jews killed jesus by giving him a very harsh senetence of cruxification when he could have been sent free. Yes I do know that Jesus is mean't to be the king of the jews.

Originally Posted by wendylove

Your saying woman represent emotion and men represent knowledge. Sounds pretty sexist to me as woman have the same amount of knoledge and intellect as a man.[/b]

Actually no. Its scientifically proven that women are more guided by emotions, whereas men make their decisions based on logic. (and this time I'm being serious, unlike in the previous post.)

Here's [topic="http://www.intentblog.com/archives/2006/09/men_smarter_tha.html"]an article[/topic] about a study that found the average men to be smarter than the average women... by very little, yes, but the evidence is there.

Now, this doesn't mean that there aren't women that are smarter than certain men, and that there aren't men that are more emotional than certain women, but as a whole... its just the way it is.

Originally Posted by wendylove

Your saying woman represent emotion and men represent knowledge. Sounds pretty sexist to me as woman have the same amount of knoledge and intellect as a man.[/b]

Well what I said was the feminine symbolizes with the will (love), while the masculine symbolizes with intellect (knowledge). By this, I am not referring to particular people such as me or you, but to symbols for the principles of being. Each person has both principles within them, an Adam-Eve. Masculine and Feminine are reciprocals of each other, and depend on each other to exist (Dao : Yin-Yang). There is no importance placed on one or the other, they are equals - two mirrors of the same thing.

im sorry but men making decisions based on the THEIR logic does not make them smarter. see how stupid male logic is by thinking that?

hahah!
http://cosmiclog.msnbc.msn.com/archi...9/07/3075.aspx

g factor and SAT scores..yeah..real great ways to measure intelligence. Those IQ tests of his do not measure overall intelligence or even general intelligence. These findings are simply biased and are not taking in all factors. As if general intelligence is something you can find in a standardized test.

This is an insult to artists everywhere as much as it is an insult to females. These statistics mean nothing from day to day life, mean nothing from individual to individual. So how can they be held true as a constant? If they cant, then men are not smarter than women.

If a man believes otherwise he really is just a sexist pig.

First of all, sorry for my wording... by saying smarter, I meant smarter in the logical and mathematical abilities, not in arts, sports, talking, or babbling. I know there is a huge array of different intelligences, and I'm by no means saying that men do better than women in all those intelligences; just the mathematical and logical skills in nature. Women on the other hand, are better in verbal and emotional intelligence... women can read body language much better than men can for example. Once again, this is just the average... just tendencies.

Originally Posted by juroara

g factor and SAT scores..yeah..real great ways to measure intelligence. Those IQ tests of his do not measure overall intelligence or even general intelligence. These findings are simply biased and are not taking in all factors. As if general intelligence is something you can find in a standardized test.[/b]

You're right, general intelligence can't be found on a standardized test. Not only that, but I have great doubts that general intelligence can be measured at all. What IQ tests do measure are mainly mathematical and logical abilities. In those fields, the average man did better than the average woman. Once again, I'm not saying that men are smarter than women on general intelligence and I'm not saying that women are dumber than men... just in the mathematical and logical fields. i.e. men are more logical.

Originally Posted by juroara

This is an insult to artists everywhere as much as it is an insult to females. These statistics mean nothing from day to day life, mean nothing from individual to individual. So how can they be held true as a constant? If they cant, then men are not smarter than women.

If a man believes otherwise he really is just a sexist pig.[/b]

Once again, I will emphasize that this is the average... it isn't true for everyone, and it obviously can't be held as a constant. Its only meant to show a tendency and an average. There are obviously cases where a man excels in verbal and writing more than many other women, and cases where a woman excels in logics and mathematics more than many other men.

I know there is a huge array of different types of intelligence and that most of those can't even be measured. Anyway, I really don't think I'm being a sexist at all. I'm not saying every men and women are like that, and I'm not saying women are dumber than man... like I mentioned earlier, women are much better/smarter/intelligent at reading body language than men.

Is it really that bad that the average man is more logical than the average woman, and that the average woman is more emotional than the average man?

If a woman thinks so, then she's just being illogical.

Originally Posted by juroara

im sorry but men making decisions based on the THEIR logic does not make them smarter. see how stupid male logic is by thinking that?

hahah!
http://cosmiclog.msnbc.msn.com/archi...9/07/3075.aspx

g factor and SAT scores..yeah..real great ways to measure intelligence. Those IQ tests of his do not measure overall intelligence or even general intelligence. These findings are simply biased and are not taking in all factors. As if general intelligence is something you can find in a standardized test.

This is an insult to artists everywhere as much as it is an insult to females. These statistics mean nothing from day to day life, mean nothing from individual to individual. So how can they be held true as a constant? If they cant, then men are not smarter than women.

If a man believes otherwise he really is just a sexist pig.[/b]

Impressive, you almost make it sound as if you actually don't just think Women are smarter then men, what makes you just as silly as the 'sexist pigs'.

I do not exclude the possibility that a certain sex or race is are more successful in certain fields. Maybe men really are smarter by the terms we set for 'intelligence'. Also, men appear to thrive well in this society. Maybe because it is man-made, or maybe because women mis the evolutionary drive to go around wasting your life on making money and gaining power (that doesn't even always makes you happy).

It really depends how you look at it. But even then, no matter how you look at it, it is relative, and means shit. Everyone should be treated with respect, including people with an IQ of 21, and even animals. However concluding that some gender is better at a certain thing isn't disrespectful per definition.

i beleve in god but not adam and eve the thing is that it is a duled down story it may not have happened like that for examples

1) there were more than two people

2) it was not an apple mabby candy

the thing is if adam ate the apple it would be sexist to so