Thread: Does enlightnement imply natural lucidity?

Yeah, enlightnement is such a confusing word..i know.
What do you think, does enlightnement mean you can't help but dream lucidly ? as your perspective and perception of things shifts does it imply natural LDing?

I think that continued practice of various meditation techniques (if done correctly and consistently) should over time result in strengthened brain connections and optimize brain performance. This makes it easier to focus on complex problems as well as to think outside the box and reach novel conclusions and deeper understanding of various issues. Whether this consitutes enlightment is hard to say. Even for experienced meditators reaching this state and maintaining it for longer periods is an ongoing goal.

We also know that experienced meditators have greater ability to generate gamma brainwaves and those have been linked to lucidity. So there is a connection between practices aimed at enlightement and lucidity.

I have a counter question - would constant lucid dreaming make you smarter or enlightened?

Originally Posted by NyxCC

I think that continued practice of various meditation techniques (if done correctly and consistently) should over time result in strengthened brain connections and optimize brain performance. This makes it easier to focus on complex problems as well as to think outside the box and reach novel conclusions and deeper understanding of various issues. Whether this consitutes enlightment is hard to say. Even for experienced meditators reaching this state and maintaining it for longer periods is an ongoing goal.

We also know that experienced meditators have greater ability to generate gamma brainwaves and those have been linked to lucidity. So there is a connection between practices aimed at enlightement and lucidity.

I have a counter question - would constant lucid dreaming make you smarter or enlightened?

Well, smarter yes because it is linked with curiosity and something called need for cognition.
Enlightemement-at least a possible huge shift on perspective- seems also to be greatly enhanced.
So it seems we have a self reinforcing circular loop.

I think that we need a enlightened person into this thread to answear this for sure. But if I may take a guess, I believe that it would be very likely that a enlightened person would easily be lucid since awareness is pretty much what a enlightened person is as I have come to understand it.

From what I understand what enlightenment as it just means you become spiritually evolved in a heightened way that differs from the average person. I wouldnt think it has any ties to Lucidity though as its just a state of being.

Enlightenment is not something that is gained. It is the process of negating all beliefs, conclusions, and preconsieved ideas about reality. Leaving a mind that has infinate space to observe what is and for intelligence to act freely from moment to moment. This is a mind which is empty, undisturbed, innocent and without blemish. Unknowing and completely free to truly learn without bias. This is a blissfully peacfull state. It is essentially a state of nothingness which is something because NOTHING IS IMPOSSIBLE. Think about that, you can't have nothing, there can only ever be something. So when all is said and done and the show is over and everyone has gone home, what is left? Not nothing, but an empty, peacfull theatre. So that would mean an enlightened mind would not dream at all and all lucid dreams would have forfilled there purpose long ago.

That's my understanding anyway. All roads lead to peace. Nivarna.

Be well all!

I had read that a enlightened being can move freely and with full consciousness through every possible level and state of existence, the enlightened being can do this because they have transcended cyclic existence and every kind of relative existence.

Enlightened in the Buddhist tradition means someone who was woken up, and is awake all the time, even in dreams, and is a buddha. So yes, enlightenment means existing in a permanent state of lucidity. It doesn't imply lucidity, it *is* lucidity.

Originally Posted by FryingMan

Enlightened in the Buddhist tradition means someone who was woken up, and is awake all the time, even in dreams, and is a buddha. So yes, enlightenment means existing in a permanent state of lucidity. It doesn't imply lucidity, it *is* lucidity.

I completely agree with this. To me Enlightenment means being completely awoken to the true nature of things. Enlightenment and lucidity are synonymous to me.

I am a bit amazed at how none of the answers come even close. Much of what you think is pure fantasy.

Enlightenment is an actual experience. The experience of your consciousness returning to the Source or divine realm(and then coming back). Anyone here read Patanjali s Yoga Sutra ? Anyone truly interested in it should research kundalini yoga (basically you need 2 things besides the right attitude, an erect spine and clean air)- i would take this opportunity to point out how one should continually try to achieve body relaxation in meditation and feel free to move while practicing meditation as long as it is achieves releasing of unwanted tension in the body)

Achtea comes somewhat close in his first sentence //Enlightenment is not something that is gained. It is the process of negating all beliefs, conclusions, and preconceived ideas about reality.// but here he is actually defining meditation. I would also add here that meditation is one s ability to defy the fragmentation of normal every day life consciousness(I remember Robert Monroe explaining high level AP as trying to pinpoint a point in the middle of your view while eyes closed in meditation(after trance state is achieved ) that is somewhat a bit different than the rest and trying to become it like that should be your perspective( this means concentration/focus)

Enlightenment is the reward as I see it, for passing all the trials one is faced with in meditation. Fearlessness comes into mind as an essential attribute one must posses. If you have any fears whatsoever and are prone to anxiety one should not even attempt this kind of stuff as everything you feel here is intensified to say the least(i remember once giving in to fear while in a trance and i thought i would die there and then, luckily i managed to come back but felt really weird for the next couple of weeks, tho I have to admit I made the mistake of trying this while in a horizontal position, usually i practice in lotus/half-lotus). All I have to say about this is all fears have no real ground whatsoever, that is the attitude one must take. We are all immortal and this life should be perceived as a gift. One page of the story.

Also one must decide to take full responsibility of one s own actions. Only then can you live in the present moment.

A funny thing i ve read in Vigyan Bhairav Tantra: Lao Tsu says, ”One inch of division, and heaven and hell are set apart.” No-division is the mind of
the sage – no division at all! Many people have trouble achieving meditative states because they try to fight the egoic mind instead of accepting it for what it is and focusing on what is more important. It will slowly fade away if you give no attention to it

Also I d recommend to anyone interested Sri Aurobindo or The Adventure of Consciousness by Satprem. Explains in more detail what I ve been saying.

Oh, and to answer the initial question, does enlightenment imply natural lucidity, the answer is it depends (basically that s more of a no). Most likely after you have the experience you come back to ordinary consciousness.

Originally Posted by DreamyBear

I think that we need a enlightened person into this thread to answear this for sure. But if I may take a guess, I believe that it would be very likely that a enlightened person would easily be lucid since awareness is pretty much what a enlightened person is as I have come to understand it.

Accordingly to the Buddha's teaching awareness is just one of the factors of enlightenment, the others are investigation, energy, joy, tranquility, samadhi and equanimity. (Btw, this doesn't mean that's what enlightenment is, but that's the minimum ammount of factors that should be there for enlightenment to ocurr.)

I agree with you. I think an enlightened person is fully aware. That instantly gives him/her the lucidity. Then when there's investigation of dhammas (realities) he/she will recognize that it is indeed a dream.

Originally Posted by Evermage

I am a bit amazed at how none of the answers come even close. Much of what you think is pure fantasy.

I think we should consider what enlightenment means for different religions. To Hinduism may be one thing, connecting with the atta the eternal self. However for early Buddhism this is 'pure fantasy' and the Buddha would discard such view by saying that belief in an eternal self is wrong view.

It is said by buddhist teachers (monks) that enlightenment is indeed an experience - cessation. However after that being comes out of that experience he remains enlightened, or already has reached enlightenment and doesn't loose the attainment, even though he is no longer in cessation. He may be 25% enlightened, 50%, 75% or fully enlightened, an arahant, a Buddha, but whatever stage he/she is, the consciousness is different. I think i heard that the consciousness that he/she experiences is called lokutarra (supramundane) [You could check if what i remember having heard is right. In the Abhiddhamma or its commentaries, like Vissudhimagga, surely explains].

Having experienced enlightenment some fetters are erradicated, being the first of the first three, belief of a self (atta); the second being doubt or uncertainty about the Buddha, the Dhamma and the Sangha (The Awakened One, the teachings of the Awakened One and the Dhamma he experienced and teaches about, and the community of monks who had experienced the same Dhamma the Buddha experienced and teaches about); and the third attachment to rites and rituals (And rules too i think, although this doesn't mean that they would deliberately break rules for whatever reason, they are just not attached to them). So accordingly to these statements of the Buddha, if one observes and listens to some yogis that claimed to be enlightened and how they became enlightened they are actually speaking about something else and not about enlightenment. For example: claiming that this yogi merged with the Avatar of Vishnu and that he is now eternal or something like that... well that doesn't fit with the definition of the (perfectly-self enlightened) Buddha as what the enlightened being has abandoned.

I haven't experienced enlightenment, but based on having listened to some teachers and studying, mainly Theravada Buddhism, i make these affirmations.

Originally Posted by Evermage

If one is able to understand completely the inner workings of one s own mind then enlightenment is within one s reach.

I agree with this, and i add that in Buddhism this is taught as Paticca Samuppada - Conditioned Origination.

^^ I think, after reading all that, that enlightenment truly is something very differeft from general LD'ing. So experiencing a moment of enlightenment neither equals lucidity or changes how you will become lucid next time around. I can agree with that.

I'm with Sageous on this one. There are at least two definitions of the word lucid/lucidity being used here. The one associated with enlightenment doesn't necessarily translate to lucid dreaming.

If one is able to understand completely the inner workings of one s own mind then enlightenment is within one s reach.

According to Dzogchen teachings, one sign of full spiritual realization is manifested when one has regular dream awareness.

I can imagine that if one's fundamental sense of self is changed from a small subset of conceptualized perceptions into an infinite, undefined, unknown, no-thingness wholeness, during daytime, then it would be odd for that illusion of self centeredness and separation to reassert itself in sleep

But i can't tell that from personal experience, only from the limited conceptual experience i have

Originally Posted by VagalTone

According to Dzogchen teachings, one sign of full spiritual realization is manifested when one has regular dream awareness.

I can imagine that if one's fundamental sense of self is changed from a small subset of conceptualized perceptions into an infinite, undefined, unknown, no-thingness wholeness, during daytime, then it would be odd for that illusion of self centeredness and separation to reassert itself in sleep

This is probably true, but there may be a caveat: NLD's by their nature might pose two problems that could throw a wrench in this theory:

First, when you are not lucid, you cannot, by nature, remember all the advances in spiritual realization you made during your days. Unless you have some way to connect to your waking-life self, I believe there is an excellent chance that your dreams will begin as non-lucidly as ever, because that is their natural default position. Of course, enlightenment-level mental disciplines/spiritual discoveries offer a raft of ways to make that lucid connection during the dream, so lucidity should be a whole lot easier for a highly self-aware person to achieve -- but it may never be guaranteed.

Second, and sort of a corollary to the first: If your entire waking-life existence is focused on enlightenment, you will probably have a tendency to form NLD's about that work. Ironically (and I've found this myself), the "reality" of a dream about being lucid tends to be strong enough that there is little to no hope of actually becoming aware that you are dreaming about being aware that you are dreaming... sort of a reverse self-referential experience, I guess, and one that is powerful enough to effectively eclipse your ability to establish that connection with your true Self that you've learned to make so easily during the day. And by extension, the probability is good that you will have these inescapable NLD's about being self-aware/enlightened/spiritually realized/what-have-you all the time, which could perhaps make strong lucidity a rarer, rather than more common event.

All that said, I will admit that the first example above is probably more likely the norm for the enlightened class, and, as experience and daytime enlightenment accumulates, the triggers to connect with your Self during a dream will be extremely easy to pull. Not only that, dreams about being lucid can be avoided by doing WILD's. So full spiritual realization is certainly a plus for LD'ing (and maybe one or two other things!).

Well said, Sageous. I think something important to point out about sleeping and dreaming to is how the brain state is significantly altered from the waking state. Higher brain function involved in controlling one's emotions, desires, and otherwise avoid making gut reactions to things is all controlled by the frontal lobe, which is mostly dormant during sleep, even while dreaming. Uninhibited by the frontal lobe/prefrontal cortex and higher brain frunction, the limbic system, responsible for emotional state, along with (more specifically) the amygdala cause you to react almost devoid of logic and reason, and makes your emotional state highly volatile. If the very portion of the brain that allows you to behave in the characteristically enlightened manner isn't functioning properly or sufficiently active, you can't remain in an enlightened state.

To further prove this point, people with frontal lobe damage or with congenital defects in the frontal lobe have many qualities that are the antithesis of enlightenment. You are more impulsive, and are more likely to compulsively seek pleasurable activity even if it hurts you in the long run. Your decision making process in general is diminished as such. You would also be much more likely to blurt out obscenities and have utter disregard for social standards, as was seen in the famous case of Phineas Gage, a man who in the past had a railroad spike go through his eye socket if I remember correctly. He lived, but because of the damage to his frontal lobe, he went from a hard working, socially acceptable man to a rather mean, unpleasant person who started to engage in lewd activities. It's not exactly the same when you're sleeping, but there are similarities in the effects of a very under-active or altogether inactive frontal lobe.

To me, enlightenment as it has been described in many cases doesn't seem humanly possible to me. Assuming it is, people still can't help an important and natural, totally unconscious brain process. If they happened to be awake that might be another story, given what some people who have mastered meditation are able to achieve, but I doubt anybody can overcome what the body and brain do for sleep. So, if somebody were to become enlightened, they wouldn't necessarily be lucid every time they dreamed, and it wouldn't disqualify them from being enlightened either (at least in my opinion).

My understanding is that prolonged meditation practice is proven to significantly develop/grow the frontal lobe, which may explain why monks can practice dream yoga lucidly so effectively despite the common physiological challenges to lucidity. That, or, their sleep habits are such that they are in a sort of continuous lighter sleep, or are just able to sleep with their frontal lobe more activated. Dream yoga practice recommends the practitioner wake every 2 hours, which is a boatload of "WBTB" every night, basically after ever sleep cycle.

^^ This could be true (and to me it makes sense that it is true), but it doesn't really matter.

One of the things that research has noted is that lucid dreamers seem to activate the sections and processes of their brains that waking-life consciousness and memory require in order to be aware. I didn't reread, but I think Zoth unearthed a good article on the subject years ago, if you're curious.

Lucidity is not just a representation of waking-life consciousness, it actually is waking-life consciousness. So yes, when we are lucid, I would imagine that the frontal lobe has been activated... but this would occur after you are lucid, not before.

So I think my caveat may still stand, as would Snoop's basic point: An enlightened soul is likely not guaranteed lucidity in her dreams, because something needs to reactivate that frontal lobe (something also needs to activate memory, which I think might involve a few other dormant systems/areas). As I said above, Dream Yogis would certainly have an easier time of doing that reactivation, not only because they are highly prepared to switch on lucidity, but because, as they near their sleep yoga level of practice, they never actually do switch it off, as a Sleep Yogi's path to sleep is essentially an extended WILD that begins a full night of lucidity.

I feel a need to add in another small sort of exception (or perhaps dodge) here as well: The lucidity I'm talking about is what I guess we'd call "full-on," where you have both waking-life self-awareness and full access to memory on hand. I have a feeling that Dream Yogis, thanks to their intense practice, may have a tendency to always know, if only at a basic, subtle, level, that they are dreaming; but they still must make an effort to establish full-on lucidity... this might not be true for enlightened folk, however, because their path to enlightenment did not necessarily require the dream yoga level practice that would prepare their minds for lucidity.

tl;dr: No matter how good we get at it, lucidity is a decision, and not a natural event; day or night. Even Dream Yogis must decide to become fully lucid, no matter how big their frontal lobes may be, as would the enlightened few... it might be much easier for these guys to make the decision, but they still must make it.

Does enlightenment imply natural lucidity?

No. lucidity implys enlightenment. And enligthenment is the fiction of the egoic mind.

Does enlightnement imply natural lucidity?

Yeah, enlightnement is such a confusing word..i know.
What do you think, does enlightnement mean you can't help but dream lucidly ? as your perspective and perception of things shifts does it imply natural LDing?

Yes, it does. But the same does not imply any kind of imposition of lucidity if one simply choses to ordinarily sleep and dream instead.
On the other hand, for "natural LDing" to be natural - it would need to extend not only to dream-sleep states, but also to one's here-and-now awake everyday living state. If for nothing else, then because lucidity in dream is something known and brought from awake-states. It would then all imply a sort of extending that lucidity in that area or times of life also.

Nontheless, one always has a choice. And even more so with the "enlightenment" because the choices widen. At least in those respects, though, they go narrow in many other ones.
One can even "delta-awake" where usualy people beta-wake or alfa-wake. Or could go theta with the opened eyes while walking through the park.
Well, true, that would not be very practical in many occasions, nor polite... There is (right?) time for everything, no?
Real enlightenment wouldn't be much of a thing if one should become some kind of mindless or choiceless automaton.
Luckily all that is a kind of process anyway. Even if enlightenment is a thing that happens in a moment, it takes time for people to "get used to it", and/or explore it more (or not). It all depends...

Reconsidering my ideas on Enlightenment, I believe rather firmly that being Enlightened fundamentally involves, in part, acknowledging one's lack of lucidity, rather than requiring somebody to be lucid all the time. As I'm sure I said before (didn't read, lol), being lucid all the time isn't humanly possible. If Enlightenment, by definition, is a state we as human beings aren't capable of being, then it either makes very little sense for us to define it in such a way or discuss it in a manner where we assume one has a possibility of becoming it while knowing it isn't actually possible.

What's paramount here is that by acknowledging one's lack of lucidity (in this case, lucidity referring to awareness or clear, conscious thought), and the inherent lack of lucidity that comes with being a conscious human being, one becomes more lucid/aware by doing so. The reason it's important to acknowledge is given substance by what is meant by "a state of being". A state of being implies the temporality of the object or subject being considered. A state is ephemeral, it is the concept of a given system in the process of consistent and persistent salience condensed into a single representation in the form of a word and a concept.

This concept of it existing as a singular entity is misleading and illusory in the way that the effect of measuring particles, despite their true nature being a vibratory wave function in constant motion existing as a cloud of possibility, causes the apparent collapse of said wave function. The particle we observe resulting from the collapse is like a snapshot of the wave function condensed into a singular object that symbolizes the ever evolving system we actually measured and observed--the mind is only capable of understanding things as fundamentally whole, singular concepts that it projects.

Thus, the idea that a level of lucidity can be reached such that it's degree becomes absolute and static isn't within the realm of our capability. The next best alternative is to note this unavoidable truth, and to know with certainty that one lacks lucidity, and that there are things one does not know. From Once grounded by that reality and the realization of it, the process of minimizing that which is not known and lacking awareness/lucidity can begin. Enlightenment is just a word, and whether we choose to attribute it or not to somebody, some state of being, or some practice is wholly a matter of choice, discovery, exploration, and learning. What we apply it to and when will therefore inevitably grow and progress just as we do as living beings. Old ideas concerning it will one day fade and die, and new one's will step in to take their place, even if they represent nothing more than the children of the old ideas themselves --essentially the same, but at the same time different, which is what gives way to its evolution.