Can "GOD" be manipulated?

[kadie]

Simple question. Do you think God can be manipulated? Why or why not?

[Alric]

Since God is a man made concept he can easily be manipulated. Hence the reason we have thousands of religions, and religious sects. Even if you want to believe there is a God though, it is ridiculously easy to say God said something when it was just your own words. Since if God is real, he clearly doesn't do anything in this world that is visible to people and thus never corrects people who lie in his name, his words can be twisted and manipulated by anyone.

[kadie]

Nicely said Alric.

[Deanstar]

Nicely said. With no believers around. I can see why they don't bother. And yet I write! I guess I will have to be the 'not approved person' to disagree. I see a general anti god trend with you an some others which is ironic culture for a religion spirituality section. let me see.....This question is like asking can your mother or father be manipulated, or can your girlfriend or your family be manipulated. It's a jerk ass question but with your reasoning the premise and goal is to make fun of people who believe in God here (due to presumable not existing) You think it's amusing but it's not even a relevant question. Alric's reasoning is a predetermined answer that you already wanted for the thread. Intellectual dishonesty.... Now, The scriptures do say that God can't be mocked, that you reap what you sow. Do you think manipulation wouldn't be a form of mocking. If you think it's not a form of humiliation to be manipulated you would generally be considered wrong by most sensible people. So in essence no God can't be manipulated as that's not apropriate clearly. God isn't imaginary anyway, and yet my very existence in occult philosophy idea's are bullet proof and I'm a witness and that makes it real. Relative truth in a multiverse? Either way you lose on so many levels. But the real level you lose on is the fact God is real and truth is objective despite mans philosophies, even if you try and lie, run away, whatever you do to try and deny it. He's going to deal with you cause it don't matter. you want to be involved in Lucid, then read the words that elect isn't fooled no matter what technology, no matter what philosophy or what happens. Can't win. Lucifer don't even have the numbers on his side cause it was such a bad idea. Can't get the choosen. yes I am a crackpot to you, no you can't have some of my crazy. Thank you for reading.

[juroara]

Simple answer, no. Manipulation assumes that you can trick or fool someone by withholding the truth of your actions or intentions. In the Christian sense, its impossible to trick or manipulate God because God would already know your true intentions and actions. Nor can that same God be pinned down to a corner with only one route of action. Jesus' God is limitless, with limitless actions. In a more Hindu sense, nothing you say or do will ever tarnish the divine, and that goes for All. In other words, you can't manipulate the divine to be less than what it is. It is and always will be. If someone is trying to manipulate God or the divine, all that means is they have a bad understanding of those concepts. It kinda goes back to negotiating in prayers. Priests have to remind believers negotiating in prayer doesn't work nor is it what prayer is all about. You can't say "God do this for me if I give up smoking" Interesting thread, even if you don't believe.

[kadie]

Interesting answer juroara. I was thinking of manipulation more along the lines of changing something. Like manipulating a piece of clay. I had not even thought of the aspect of tricking or fooling. Along the lines of manipulating in the sense of changing God I first thought, well it's done all the time with differing religions, but that would be from a human perspective, so "God" would not truly be manipulated, but our perception of him would. My other thought was kind of a take off on my other thread "Who or What is God to you". Since I don't subscribe to the magic man in the sky theory, and do subscribe to God as the Universe and creation, I would say yes, God can be manipulated. Man has shown it can manipulate darn near everything in the natural world. Hmmm....I like what you said about the Hindu sense and not being able to tarnish the divine. Thats got me thinking, so I'll come back to that after a bit of pondering.

[dutchraptor]

Maybe god is some really insecure supernatural being. He created earth cause he wanted some realistic opinions. The people he created kept twisting his words until he started believing them. Every time a new religion pops up he starts to follow them because a bunch of people start praying to him that their way is the right one. In that case, yes, god is capable of being manipulated. In fact maybe he's believing what I wrote just now, in which case he once again knows the truth. In case you believe in one of the less likely situations, like an omnipotent god, then no he can't be manipulated.

[Darkmatters]

The idea of god is manipulated all the time. Even if there is an actual god, nobody really knows what's true about it and what isn't, they can only rely on what people have said on the issue. In fact, the reason the idea of god was created in the first place was for manipulation, and since then it's been used to manipulate in various different ways. In the immortal words of Michael Stanley in the song Let's Get the Show on the Road: "The lord uses the good ones, and the bad ones use the lord". Edited to add bonus music video:

[kadie]

Yeah, that was kind of my thought too. Nice post darkmatters.

[Alric]

For the sake of argument, lets pretend God is real and the bible is true. The bible gives several examples of God being manipulated. For example in the story of Job, Satan clearly manipulates God. In fact that story actually demonstrates that it is extremely easy to manipulate the God of the bible. Satan had him wrapped around his little finger.

[kadie]

Wow. Good reference. I had forgot about that one.

[Deanstar]

For the sake of argument, lets pretend God is real and the bible is true. The bible gives several examples of God being manipulated. For example in the story of Job, Satan clearly manipulates God. In fact that story actually demonstrates that it is extremely easy to manipulate the God of the bible. Satan had him wrapped around his little finger. Actually God clearly had Satan wrapped around his little finger, because God proved Satan wrong and ended up giving Job a lot more than he had before (including more glory) as well as taught Job and the rest of humanity an extremely valuable theological lesson about human suffering in the face of righteousness. If you read the book of Job it provides a very good explanation as to why good people have to suffer at all. That dispute is over when Satan lost that argument a long time ago. He lost the argument that we only do it for the reward, and he lost the argument that Good people shouldn't have to suffer. That's 2 birds in one stone. Pretty Good for being 'manipulated'. If I was satan and I had lost that dispute, I would realize I am now a lot worse off than before, he is the one that feels manipulated, he was used as a tool to demonstrate something. Even though those arguments are invalid today people still use them, just like people still believe in all kinds of false things because of a lack of education. (I love how you say "lets pretend it's real" each time you start your argument. If it wasn't real you wouldn't have to mention it)

[snoop]

I can't believe no one in the thread has suggested yet that God could possibly be someone or something other than what is described in the Abrahamic religions. If you want to break things down, there is a state of nonexistence and a state of existence. This state of existence by its very nature propagates itself and has literally manifested itself in every conceivable way in the universe. Look at it like binary, which is a clear example that everything can be lowered to the most common denominator of an "on" or "off" state, 0 and 1, 1 or 2, however you want to look at it. Existence's manifestation of itself has resulted in literally everything because that's all there is. So what do we find God to be? We literally are the spawns of existence so if you view our definition of God as this state of existence, God is easily manipulated because we can alter which ways this manifestation takes place.

[Alric]

Actually God clearly had Satan wrapped around his little finger, because God proved Satan wrong and ended up giving Job a lot more than he had before (including more glory) as well as taught Job and the rest of humanity an extremely valuable theological lesson about human suffering in the face of righteousness. If you read the book of Job it provides a very good explanation as to why good people have to suffer at all. That dispute is over when Satan lost that argument a long time ago. He lost the argument that we only do it for the reward, and he lost the argument that Good people shouldn't have to suffer. That's 2 birds in one stone. Pretty Good for being 'manipulated'. If I was satan and I had lost that dispute, I would realize I am now a lot worse off than before, he is the one that feels manipulated, he was used as a tool to demonstrate something. Even though those arguments are invalid today people still use them, just like people still believe in all kinds of false things because of a lack of education. (I love how you say "lets pretend it's real" each time you start your argument. If it wasn't real you wouldn't have to mention it) That is silly, why would God need to prove anything to Satan? Obviously Satan is just a plot device in that story. They needed a character to challenge god, so that he would have a reason to hurt his follower to prove his point. However, if you take it literally as if Satan and God were real people, then Satan clearly manipulated God into harming Job. Satan didn't win the argument but he did manipulate god into doing horrible things to his own follower. Also that is pretty messed up that his wife and all his children died and god just replaced them. As if you can replace human that easily. Your child dies, you just have sex and make some more, no big deal right? That is a pretty twisted view of human life. Also no, you are wrong. I said 'lets pretend it is real', because it isn't real and I don't want people getting weird ideas. Ideally I shouldn't have to say such thing when we are talking about obviously fictional characters, but some people mistake them as real characters.

[Aristocles]

(I love how you say "lets pretend it's real" each time you start your argument. If it wasn't real you wouldn't have to mention it) Deanstar, it's arguendo or postulation; whichever - it is necessary to either expose sophistry or discrepancies in a notion, theory or system. Even believers exploit arguendo some say "Let's say God is not real; then who triggered the Big Bang ?". (;postulation is not applicable) It allows people to delve into an argument more adequately and allows us to recognize dichotomy. "If it wasn't real you wouldn't have to mention it" - I'll presume you were attempting to undermine Alric's post with this comment.

[kadie]

I can't believe no one in the thread has suggested yet that God could possibly be someone or something other than what is described in the Abrahamic religions. If you want to break things down, there is a state of nonexistence and a state of existence. This state of existence by its very nature propagates itself and has literally manifested itself in every conceivable way in the universe. Look at it like binary, which is a clear example that everything can be lowered to the most common denominator of an "on" or "off" state, 0 and 1, 1 or 2, however you want to look at it. Existence's manifestation of itself has resulted in literally everything because that's all there is. So what do we find God to be? We literally are the spawns of existence so if you view our definition of God as this state of existence, God is easily manipulated because we can alter which ways this manifestation takes place. I kind of said that.

[snoop]

I kind of said that. Somehow I completely missed that post

[Deanstar]

That is silly, why would God need to prove anything to Satan? ah, God didn't 'need' anything from Satan. Satan was the one with the issues, he requested something of God (to have power over Job), which was granted. He asked if Job feared God for nothing. Satan clearly manipulated God into harming Job. Satan didn't win the argument but he did manipulate god into doing horrible things to his own follower. God wasn't afraid of Job being tested, neither was Job. Imagine if God said No. You would have an extra tissy fit and say all of God's followers are fake pussies cause they are never tested. This is how you roll. You and your double standards. When it's demonstrated that the loyalty is not fake through extreme suffering and pain. You complain that it was allowed to happen anyway. This is completely stupid you can't have it both ways. Also that is pretty messed up that his wife and all his children died and god just replaced them. As if you can replace human that easily. Everyone dies dude. If you have a problem with Job getting another wife. Then you also have a problem with everyone on this planet who's wife has died who has then remarried. Isn't it funny that you only have an issue when it suits you. You never complained about everyone getting another wife, until this argument comes up where you have to defend satan. lolz. Also no, you are wrong. I said 'lets pretend it is real', because it isn't real and I don't want people getting weird ideas. If you think it's not real. Then why do you feel the need to challenge the theology and the bible itself. Why don't you challenge spiderman or the batman movie? That's not real, argue with that. There is a lot of batman fans, try and convince them batman isn't good or real. They will still be a batman fan. Why are you not threatened by that, but you are threatened by my beliefs. "Let's say God is not real; then who triggered the Big Bang ?". You don't need to say "lets say God is not real" and people never say that. They just simply ask the question. What triggered the big bang? You never hear christians saying "lets say God isn't real" because that's not what they believe. Anyone that says that is starting with a faulty premise because God IS real, and you don't need to pretend he isn't, to make a good argument. In fact if you pretend he isn't real you are already defeating yourself as a christian. There is no possible gain from starting my argument like that.

[dutchraptor]

It's shocking how you can't see the absurdity of that logic.

[Deanstar]

It's shocking how you can't see the absurdity of that logic. nice response

[Gnostic]

Nicely said. With no believers around. I can see why they don't bother. And yet I write! I guess I will have to be the 'not approved person' to disagree. I see a general anti god trend with you an some others which is ironic culture for a religion spirituality section. let me see.....This question is like asking can your mother or father be manipulated, or can your girlfriend or your family be manipulated. It's a jerk ass question but with your reasoning the premise and goal is to make fun of people who believe in God here (due to presumable not existing) You think it's amusing but it's not even a relevant question. Alric's reasoning is a predetermined answer that you already wanted for the thread. Intellectual dishonesty.... Now, The scriptures do say that God can't be mocked, that you reap what you sow. Do you think manipulation wouldn't be a form of mocking. If you think it's not a form of humiliation to be manipulated you would generally be considered wrong by most sensible people. So in essence no God can't be manipulated as that's not apropriate clearly. God isn't imaginary anyway, and yet my very existence in occult philosophy idea's are bullet proof and I'm a witness and that makes it real. Relative truth in a multiverse? Either way you lose on so many levels. But the real level you lose on is the fact God is real and truth is objective despite mans philosophies, even if you try and lie, run away, whatever you do to try and deny it. He's going to deal with you cause it don't matter. you want to be involved in Lucid, then read the words that elect isn't fooled no matter what technology, no matter what philosophy or what happens. Can't win. Lucifer don't even have the numbers on his side cause it was such a bad idea. Can't get the choosen. yes I am a crackpot to you, no you can't have some of my crazy. Thank you for reading. You hoe a tough row so better get used to doing your apologetics without whining my friend. That is what I had to do when going from atheist or non-belief to a Gnostic Christian belief. That belief has nothing to do with the miracle working God you believe in. The Godhead I found is all natural although many atheists do not see him that way and would rather call what I know to be true as woo. I girdled my loins and so should you. I believe that God can be manipulated. For instance. If he is to send you to hell, you can manipulate his judgement from guilty to innocent by just repenting. Right? There is also the story where God could not win a battle because of steel wheeled chariots. Whoever built those manipulated God with them. Regards DL

[Aristocles]

I genuinely hope that you are intentionally writing in an equivocal fashion to simply be perverse, however, if you are serious then I can only hope disputation will facilitate some form evolution regarding your beliefs. If you think it's not real. Then why do you feel the need to challenge the theology and the bible itself. Why don't you challenge spiderman or the batman movie? That's not real, argue with that. There is a lot of batman fans, try and convince them batman isn't good or real. They will still be a batman fan. Why are you not threatened by that, but you are threatened by my beliefs. I can not help but wonder if you would concede that some subscribers of theology exploit it for personal gain (;a charlatan) or intentionally mislead the masses to obtain some kind of social conformity that they approve of. What sincerely concerns me are those who would legislate on the basis of religious dogma - that to me is frightening. This is explicitly; reason enough to challenge any of whom; who would wish our country("ies") be governed by regressive theological dogmatism. "Why don't you challenge spiderman or the batman movie ? That's not real, argue with that." I can not allow you to get away with this one - this is directly why I made the above enquiry regarding your intentions. You have to be cognizant of the distinction between theology and that of Batman or Spiderman, though I agree they are all fictional and hold no bearing on the universe. Believing in a intervening personal god is proprietary, however you could imagine if members of our society actually believed in a crime stopping batman they would be stigmatize and rightly so. Majority of us; including you, do not believe in an actual batman or spiderman and I'll add that no politician is currently (;that I know of) legislating on behalf of batman. You don't need to say "lets say God is not real" and people never say that. They just simply ask the question. What triggered the big bang?You never hear christians saying "lets say God isn't real" because that's not what they believe. Anyone that says that is starting with a faulty premise because God IS real, and you don't need to pretend he isn't, to make a good argument. In fact if you pretend he isn't real you are already defeating yourself as a christian. There is no possible gain from starting my argument like that. "You never hear christians saying "let's say God isn't real" because that's not what they believe" True - it is never usually framed this way ... I should not have framed it that way, but the statement still holds water "Who triggered the Big Bang ?" The very utterance of this statement is a concession (;not capitulation) from a theist. Atheist - "God does not exist !" Theist - "Oh, well then who triggered the Big Bang ?" Very simple, but it gets my point across - the question inherently stipulates the non-existence of God. I'll add this to the question to clarify further "Oh, well then who triggered the Big Bang; if god does not exist". Theist use arguendo defensively while atheist typically use arguendo offensively .... enough said.

[Gnostic]

Actually God clearly had Satan wrapped around his little finger, because God proved Satan wrong and ended up giving Job a lot more than he had before (including more glory) as well as taught Job and the rest of humanity an extremely valuable theological lesson about human suffering in the face of righteousness. If you read the book of Job it provides a very good explanation as to why good people have to suffer at all. That dispute is over when Satan lost that argument a long time ago. He lost the argument that we only do it for the reward, and he lost the argument that Good people shouldn't have to suffer. That's 2 birds in one stone. Pretty Good for being 'manipulated'. If I was satan and I had lost that dispute, I would realize I am now a lot worse off than before, he is the one that feels manipulated, he was used as a tool to demonstrate something. Even though those arguments are invalid today people still use them, just like people still believe in all kinds of false things because of a lack of education. (I love how you say "lets pretend it's real" each time you start your argument. If it wasn't real you wouldn't have to mention it) Can you read? Who manipulated / moved who? Job 2;3 And the LORD said unto Satan: 'Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a whole-hearted and an upright man, one that feareth God, and shunneth evil? and he still holdeth fast his integrity, although thou didst move Me against him, to destroy him without cause.' Note God sayin --- moved me. If you have to lie to make a point, you lose that point. You say God made up for the harm he did. If your kids are murdered, is that pain gone and justice done if you have more children? Only a really immoral man will say yes. And a really immoral God would think his actions moral in, as God said, destroying without cause. Regards DL

[Alric]

ah, God didn't 'need' anything from Satan. Satan was the one with the issues, he requested something of God (to have power over Job), which was granted. He asked if Job feared God for nothing. Read the story again, you can clearly see that God is very vain and Satan uses that to get God to do what he wants, multiple times. Even after God harms Job, and proves Job is good, Satan comes back and gets God and even more harm is done to Job. It is obviously God is doing all of this because he is vain and feels like he needs to show off and seek Satan's approval for some reason. He is clearly manipulated. God wasn't afraid of Job being tested, neither was Job. Imagine if God said No. You would have an extra tissy fit and say all of God's followers are fake pussies cause they are never tested. This is how you roll. You and your double standards. When it's demonstrated that the loyalty is not fake through extreme suffering and pain. You complain that it was allowed to happen anyway. This is completely stupid you can't have it both ways. I wouldn't say anything of the sort. I have never said people had to be tortured to see if they were true followers, and I wouldn't call a person a pussy because they weren't willing to be tortured to prove a point. Also Job did question God and showed he wasn't entirely faithful any way. Everyone dies dude. If you have a problem with Job getting another wife. Then you also have a problem with everyone on this planet who's wife has died who has then remarried. Isn't it funny that you only have an issue when it suits you. You never complained about everyone getting another wife, until this argument comes up where you have to defend satan. lolz. There is a huge difference between your wife dying naturally, and then moving on and getting a new wife, and someone murdering your wife then giving you a replacement. The murdering part is an issue, and the treating women as property part is an issue. Same thing for the children. You can't just treaty people like property and replace them and say it is good enough. If you think it's not real. Then why do you feel the need to challenge the theology and the bible itself. Why don't you challenge spiderman or the batman movie? That's not real, argue with that. There is a lot of batman fans, try and convince them batman isn't good or real. They will still be a batman fan. Why are you not threatened by that, but you are threatened by my beliefs. I have done that before. There is a lot of people who will debate if Batman is good or evil, since his character can skirt around the law and depending on the comic/movie, he can be pretty dark some times. I would say he is generally a good guy, but there is definitely some depictions of him that might be more grey. I am not threaten with either things though, with their idea of batman or your belief in god. I am just describing what is in the bible, and it clearly says God was manipulated.

[Deanstar]

If he is to send you to hell, you can manipulate his judgement from guilty to innocent by just repenting. Right? No, once you are judged as condemed, you can no longer repent. God chooses to forgive those that repent when there is still time because that's his preference. If you think God can be manipulated, it is basically one of the most laughable claims in existence. I guess that is what you get when you become foolish? There is also the story where God could not win a battle because of steel wheeled chariots. You have that story very wrong and do not understand what you are reading. Regards DL kind regards, Dean I genuinely hope that you are intentionally writing in an equivocal fashion to simply be perverse I genuiley hope that you are not in some fake way trying to accuse me of trying to be perverse (LOCK THE THREAD LOL). I notice how you try and censor people on here by accusing them of stuff. It's lame. I can not help but wonder if you would concede that some subscribers of theology exploit it for personal gain (;a charlatan) or intentionally mislead the masses to obtain some kind of social conformity that they approve of. Perhaps your interpretation of the Book of Job, is the best example of that. imagine if members of our society actually believed in a crime stopping batman they would be stigmatize and rightly so. Majority of us; including you, do not believe in an actual batman or spiderman and I'll add that no politician is currently (;that I know of) legislating on behalf of batman. They create the character of it don't they. They sell batman suits. People dress up as batman and act like batman. They believe in batman. You are not out protesting about batman. If you think My God is equally as real as batman then you should look as silly as fighting me than you do with someone who believes in batman. But since this is a serious topic and is the truth. You have to address it. No-one laughs at you for addressing it, cause it's based on litrature that is the best in history not a batman comic. In congress I think there is actually some guy in America that dresses up as a wizard, that wears this cone hat. Why don't you debate him that there is no wizards? Note God sayin --- moved me. Someone asked me for some money for food the other day. Did they "move me" or was I being charitable. God was making the point that it was satans fault that this was happening to Job. Something you deny. Has nothing to do with being manipulated. God could have said NO to satan if he wanted to. It was within Gods power to say "Go away satan". Like Jesus did when he lived on earth. You place no blame on Satan, even though it was Satan that tortured Job? Not very discerning of you. There is a lot of people who will debate if Batman is good or evil, since his character can skirt around the law and depending on the comic/movie, he can be pretty dark some times. I would say he is generally a good guy, but there is definitely some depictions of him that might be more grey I love it how you start debating batman, just to make yourself look credible now.....you wouldn't normally debate batman unless I manipulate you into it. (just a light hearted joke, don't complain to the mods)