Thread: Emerging research EEG

I love when people share these scientific articles. I wish we did this more often.

I also encourage reading the source: https://elifesciences.org/articles/55092

Do YOU have thoughts about this article?

I'm not sure what my own thoughts are. What is the implication of this article for lucid dreamers? Does it tell us anything new about dreaming? It's not what these studies investigated but I did like the reminder that sleep (as opposed to anasthesia which is a brain-wide state) exhibits network-specific activity patterns. This is probably how we can become more "vigilant" during lucid dreaming without altogether waking up (Vigilant in this article is defined as the level of consciousness or the arousal, along with Content which is the awareness (or objects of awareness). I'm not sure I have a great grasp of these terms).

I feel excited and optimistic when i read such articles. I think that if there is a specific signature of a signal that can pinpoint consciousness state then the possibility to developing robust tools for the average human to experiment with is likely. I currently want to explore and document my rem phases but because i lack the expertise, it feels like a daunting task.

I mostly was curious if people are likewise excited about upcoming technology and how it might further push research into lucid dreaming and even consciousness itself.

Like a technology to helps induce lucid dreaming? Perhaps, but I would be surprised an average human could benefit of an EEG detecting gadget for lucid dreaming... That technology seems a bit inaccessible to the common person. Gadgets that recognize Rapid Eye Movement are more likely to remain the preferred strategy.

Foreword, I'm a bit drowsy.

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Because of my experience with electronics and also having taken actual sleep studies in hospital, I remain skeptical, mostly about miniaturised technologies, that claim to read all these things accurately, such as with the so called smart watches and the like. A proper medical EEG such as the ones mentioned in the original post's study for example is considerably invasive by most people's standards.

It's possible that some technologies may miniaturise sufficiently in terms of their data processing, but the sensing part is always likely to remain invasive unless more specific source regions can be identified, at least this is my guess. Of course it's entirely possible that a complex sensing device could be built into some type of thing that can be worn but this would likely end up being bulky or uncomfortable and take a lot of R&D; potentially not making a lot of commercial sense, since on their own, these things are merely diagnostic tools at the end of the day and would be very difficult to market for an average consumer that has no interest in the potential applications we are discussing.

Thus as Occipitalred says, I believe the average human is not likely to benefit from such devices any time in the near future at least; a person would need to be interested in the specific context we are discussing (dreaming and identifying dreaming phases and so on), and also the devices would likely remain costly both to produce and own. How expensive production might be would likely also depend on proprietary hardware/software, licensing, and the sensitivity/accuracy of a device; and of course if it's not an accurate device, there's no real point to it, I think.

Originally Posted by DarkestDarkness

Foreword, I'm a bit drowsy.

---

Because of my experience with electronics and also having taken actual sleep studies in hospital, I remain skeptical, mostly about miniaturised technologies, that claim to read all these things accurately, such as with the so called smart watches and the like. A proper medical EEG such as the ones mentioned in the original post's study for example is considerably invasive by most people's standards.

It's possible that some technologies may miniaturise sufficiently in terms of their data processing, but the sensing part is always likely to remain invasive unless more specific source regions can be identified, at least this is my guess. Of course it's entirely possible that a complex sensing device could be built into some type of thing that can be worn but this would likely end up being bulky or uncomfortable and take a lot of R&D; potentially not making a lot of commercial sense, since on their own, these things are merely diagnostic tools at the end of the day and would be very difficult to market for an average consumer that has no interest in the potential applications we are discussing.

Thus as Occipitalred says, I believe the average human is not likely to benefit from such devices any time in the near future at least; a person would need to be interested in the specific context we are discussing (dreaming and identifying dreaming phases and so on), and also the devices would likely remain costly both to produce and own. How expensive production might be would likely also depend on proprietary hardware/software, licensing, and the sensitivity/accuracy of a device; and of course if it's not an accurate device, there's no real point to it, I think.

Have you seen my thread here?: https://www.dreamviews.com/lucid-aid...ction-app.html

I use a commercial EEG headset (the Muse S), which is not prohibitively expensive (was $290 when I bought it). It's comfortable enough to wear every night (soft surface, dry electrodes, adjustable band), and it detects eye movements reliably enough that I've successfully been tracking my REM cycles with it (and having it trigger alarm effects when those eye movements are detected).

While it hasn't been a "wonder device" for inducing lucidity (the prompts do not always filter into the dreams), I consider it a valuable tool, as it lets me get detailed information of what happens each night (even letting me track my individual left and right eye movements, if I care enough to go back and check it).

So hardware-wise, a commercially available rem-detector does already exist, with reasonable cost and accuracy (and can be fully customized, if you know programming). While it's not "packaged up" yet for anyone to use, I'm working to get that completed in the next few weeks, so others can try out the system as well.

Personally, a $270-350 price range for hardware is a bit excessive for me, as I simply do not have that kind of disposable income. But overall it would seem like this could be reasonable for something of this sort, if it is indeed accurate (your work seems to imply that this might be the case anyway) and a person has the type of life/money where they can spend their money on stuff like this.

If I seemed overly skeptical or biased in my previous comment, it may simply be I'm in a minority of some sort, as my criteria for affordability is in part based on the fact that a lot of things that are useful to one's life simply aren't affordable (to me) and sometimes things have simply been overly expensive for what they are or for what they provide. I have been overly naive in the past and my biases therefore lean toward being cautious, especially if money's on the table. Plus, here at home we have a lot of good stuff that we have bought cheaply because it was damaged or not working and repaired it ourselves.

I know this is a bit of a divergence but on the matter of money, I hope that if you get your software off the ground that you can market it with some success for a fair price and fair is subjective of course, but I simply mean rather than free if possible; I know it can be easier to make something free and make people support your work another way these days but sometimes I do feel it's just better to be able to buy something and get the full deal for it. And anyway, good work should always be rewarded; I'm sure you've heard it said, if you're good at what you do, don't do it free. Even if some of us like me can't afford to reward creators for their work or efforts sometimes.

Also, and I don't believe you're looking for a random person's validation on this but I do think with your software solution seems like it could potentially be quite useful in general for lucidity induction and I'd certainly be willing to try it if I had the hardware for it. I do hope that your project goes well and that people can use it as a gateway for frequent lucidity.

Originally Posted by DarkestDarkness

Personally, a $270-350 price range for hardware is a bit excessive for me, as I simply do not have that kind of disposable income. But overall it would seem like this could be reasonable for something of this sort, if it is indeed accurate (your work seems to imply that this might be the case anyway) and a person has the type of life/money where they can spend their money on stuff like this.

If I seemed overly skeptical or biased in my previous comment, it may simply be I'm in a minority of some sort, as my criteria for affordability is in part based on the fact that a lot of things that are useful to one's life simply aren't affordable (to me) and sometimes things have simply been overly expensive for what they are or for what they provide. I have been overly naive in the past and my biases therefore lean toward being cautious, especially if money's on the table. Plus, here at home we have a lot of good stuff that we have bought cheaply because it was damaged or not working and repaired it ourselves.

It's worth noting that the Muse devices can be gotten a lot cheaper second-hand from sites like Ebay. For example, at a time when the Muse 1 was selling new for ~$200, some people were getting it for around $70 used on Ebay. So if you keep your eye out (or add deal alerts), you can get it for much less. I haven't seen deals like that for Muse S yet (since it's so new), but I expect they will start coming up after a while.

Originally Posted by DarkestDarkness

I know this is a bit of a divergence but on the matter of money, I hope that if you get your software off the ground that you can market it with some success for a fair price and fair is subjective of course, but I simply mean rather than free if possible; I know it can be easier to make something free and make people support your work another way these days but sometimes I do feel it's just better to be able to buy something and get the full deal for it. And anyway, good work should always be rewarded; I'm sure you've heard it said, if you're good at what you do, don't do it free. Even if some of us like me can't afford to reward creators for their work or efforts sometimes.

My plan for the app is to have the core lucid-dream induction tools free forever; I can't absolutely promise that (I can't preclude some family emergency or something in the future that could necessitate a shift), but that is my intent.

I do plan for some monetization of "extra features" on the site, such as ability to enter dreams into a virtual "dream world" that users on the site build up, with a map, little icons and stories for different locations, etc. But those are additional features that are not necessary for lucid dreaming induction. Lucid dreaming itself is such an amazing thing, that if I get a reliable path to inducing them, I want it to be as accessible as possible to the world so it can spread quickly, and improve people's quality of life. I know from my own experiences how awe-inspiring and beautiful such experiences can be, and how much it can boost one's spirit on awakening -- and I don't want my personal income to rely on placing a barrier there. (hence my ideas for monetizing various side features)

Originally Posted by DarkestDarkness

Also, and I don't believe you're looking for a random person's validation on this but I do think with your software solution seems like it could potentially be quite useful in general for lucidity induction and I'd certainly be willing to try it if I had the hardware for it. I do hope that your project goes well and that people can use it as a gateway for frequent lucidity.

Thank you! I do indeed intend it to be a "lucid-dreaming portal", or website with everything useful related to lucid dreaming, such as induction tools, sleep session recording/history, collaborative dream research, dream journaling, LD competitions (hopefully integrating with those on this forum), etc. There's a ton I have planned, but the first and most important step is to try to develop a lucid-dream induction procedure which at least works well for me personally. I can then share that procedure with others, and see if it works for them as well. If it does, then I'd be off to the races, to build the rest of the site around that core.

Of course, that "core" is the crucial component which no one has been able to crack yet -- so there's no guarantee I'll be able to. [well, some have individually, but I mean in a way that is widely effective]

But nonetheless, I think it's well worth seeking. (and if it turns out that the core component fails, there's still benefit to be had in creating software that helps with dream recording/history, collaborative dream research, etc.)

Anyway, I'm having fun working on the software, and have made some solid progress. Let's hope the things I'm learning from it end up being of some assistance down the road.