Thread: Where do these images come from?

Images in dreams are often generated by expectation. As soon as I think, 'There's a wolf nearby', I'll see a wolf (or perhaps something less terrifying...). But in lucid dreaming I have enjoyed moments when my subconscious surprises me. I've recently been generating ideas for a book cover in my lucid dreams, and it's fascinating to look at a canvas and try to work out why you have been presented with that collection of images? Where do they come from? Are they all memory fragments, or a synthesis? Will we ever know?

Robert Waggoner would say that this is the work of the 'bricoleur' -- a French word meaning someone who 'tinkers' .

Even in dreams where you appear to have extensive or even "full" control of the dream itself, you'll notice that you aren't consciously creating 99% of the whole experience -- every blade of grass or tree, every building or structure, every item in every room you explore, nor every person or their behaviors.

At best you seem to only be directing the dream (like a film director) perhaps actively creating a few things here and there, but the bulk is designed and made manifest by something else. That's the bricoleur's craft.

In the fine arts, Bricolage is art made by using found objects, and so 'bricoleur' seems like an apt name to give this creator. It has what I can only imagine to be a massive junkyard of sensory experiences, memories, and feelings to work with, and can use these 'found objects' to collage together whole worlds down to the smallest detail. Then continues to rework the canvas, moment to moment, as you explore and the dream unfolds.

It's truly amazing, and one of the things that gives me humility as a lucid dreamer with 20+ years of experience. I can't say with honesty that I control the dream anymore than a sailor can say he controls the sea. I appear to have influence, but really I'm just working in concert with something much larger and more powerful than my conscious self. And it's beautiful.

Many thanks for this detailed response, TheUncanny. You make a similar point as found in Charlie Morley's 'Dreams of Awakening', concerning who is really in control in a dream. I have read some of Waggoner's work a while back, but had not come across (or perhaps forgotten) the 'bricoleur' - I love it. What fascinates me is if, say, you see in a rose in a dream, and this rose has been generated by your subconscious (or bricoleur), I wonder whether this is a rose that you have seen at some point in your life, or whether it is a synthesis of memories. In the same way that a child need not see a blue monkey to combine the concepts of monkey and blue before drawing one. It makes me wonder how much is drawn from memory, and how much from a combination of these ideas... or for those who believe in a collective consciousness, even somewhere else!

I'm inclined to think it's sort of the case of blue monkeys, where our minds can disassociate qualities from real experiences we've had and mix/match them up in new ways.

That said, a long time ago in a galaxy far far away, I did an experiment where I would draw a random card from a deck of cards and tape it to my windows facing outwards (all without looking at what the card was). Id then LD, fly outside of my house and to the window to see what the dream card was, then compare the results with the actual card after waking up -- I was interested in whether it was possible to see real things accurately while in a lucid dream.

I believe I did this 5 or 10 times, and got some interesting results. I don't think I got a 100% match in any of those trials, but did get several close matches, for example:

Dream: Queen of Spades, real card: Queen of Clubs
Dream: 5 of Diamonds, real: 4 of Diamonds

They were close enough, often enough, for me to legitimately suspect that there might be something to this, especially considering how unstable small details can be in dreams.

I tried to do the math on these "near misses" by looking at the odds of getting just the suit right, or just the value, or being just one-off, but it got muddy. I searched for help with the math from someone who knew how to do this right, and ultimately my overall results were something like 1 out of 100 of getting the results I did. Not mind-blowing, but still somewhat compelling.

Ah, found it (circa 2005)

"The first number represents the number seen in the OBE, the second represents the actual number of the card:

T1. 2 clubs, 7 spades
T2. Queen clubs, Queen spades
T3. Jack (red suit), Jack clubs
T4. 3 hearts, 2 clubs
T5. Ace hearts, 3 hearts
T6. (1)Ace clubs, Queen spades
T7. 7 hearts, 3 spades
T8. Queen hearts, Jack diamonds
T9. King (red suit), King diamonds
T10. 9 hearts, 6 Hearts
(and two more trails later)
T11. Ace hearts, Ace clubs
T12. King clubs, Jack clubs"

After struggling with the math on the first 10, someone named Tom came in to help:

Spoiler for Read details here:

First of all I believe you experiement is not luck only but that there is something going on, secondly, I'm sorry to say it as well, but your calculation is crap. (dont get angry or dissapointed now!) but believe me, it is totally wrong.

...

This is calculated as follows:
Probability to guess 0 out of 10 is (12/13)^10 = 45%
Probability to guess 1 out of 10 is (12/13)^9*(1/13)*10 = 37% (one needs to multiple by 10 because there are 10 different ways to score 1 hit and 9 misses out of 10 trails!)
Probability to guess 2 out of 10 is (12/13)^8*(1/13)^2 *45 = 14% (one needs to multiple by 45 because there are 45 different ways to score 2 hits and 8 misses out of 10 trails!)
This adds up to about 96% which means 96% of the time a computer would score 2 or less hits if he performs 10 trails, which means if one is guessing one will only score 3 or more hits in 4 % of the attempts, which means it is pretty likely you did not just guess the cards but perceive some info about the real cards while out of body.
The chance you did not leave you body is below 4%! That’s it! That’s the result! It’s a success, I would say! But, 10 trails are way too few to say much anyway!

...

o.k. I'm know I'm crazy..........
I calculated the colors as well. 7 hits out of 10, doing this by chance will happen on 17,2% of the trails. The symbols can not be considered since the colors and the symvols are not independent Variables. The colors and the values(from above) can be multiplied though, since they are independent.
0.172*0.04=0.00688=0.688%
This means that there is a chance below 1% that you just guessed the cards!
If you want more prove, you need to do another 10 trails.......

Originally Posted by TheUncanny

Ah, found it (circa 2005)

"The first number represents the number seen in the OBE, the second represents the actual number of the card:

T1. 2 clubs, 7 spades
T2. Queen clubs, Queen spades
T3. Jack (red suit), Jack clubs
T4. 3 hearts, 2 clubs
T5. Ace hearts, 3 hearts
T6. (1)Ace clubs, Queen spades
T7. 7 hearts, 3 spades
T8. Queen hearts, Jack diamonds
T9. King (red suit), King diamonds
T10. 9 hearts, 6 Hearts
(and two more trails later)
T11. Ace hearts, Ace clubs
T12. King clubs, Jack clubs"

After struggling with the math on the first 10, someone named Tom came in to help:

Spoiler for Read details here:

First of all I believe you experiement is not luck only but that there is something going on, secondly, I'm sorry to say it as well, but your calculation is crap. (dont get angry or dissapointed now!) but believe me, it is totally wrong.

...

This is calculated as follows:
Probability to guess 0 out of 10 is (12/13)^10 = 45%
Probability to guess 1 out of 10 is (12/13)^9*(1/13)*10 = 37% (one needs to multiple by 10 because there are 10 different ways to score 1 hit and 9 misses out of 10 trails!)
Probability to guess 2 out of 10 is (12/13)^8*(1/13)^2 *45 = 14% (one needs to multiple by 45 because there are 45 different ways to score 2 hits and 8 misses out of 10 trails!)
This adds up to about 96% which means 96% of the time a computer would score 2 or less hits if he performs 10 trails, which means if one is guessing one will only score 3 or more hits in 4 % of the attempts, which means it is pretty likely you did not just guess the cards but perceive some info about the real cards while out of body.
The chance you did not leave you body is below 4%! That’s it! That’s the result! It’s a success, I would say! But, 10 trails are way too few to say much anyway!

...

o.k. I'm know I'm crazy..........
I calculated the colors as well. 7 hits out of 10, doing this by chance will happen on 17,2% of the trails. The symbols can not be considered since the colors and the symvols are not independent Variables. The colors and the values(from above) can be multiplied though, since they are independent.
0.172*0.04=0.00688=0.688%
This means that there is a chance below 1% that you just guessed the cards!
If you want more prove, you need to do another 10 trails.......

That's very interesting TheUncanny! I did a similar experiment when I was younger with a set of colored balls, of which I would randomly select one of the six colors (eyes closed the whole time), put it into a box, close it, then try to see or ask for the color in a lucid dream.

The first two attempts were hits! The odds of this occurring by chance would thus be (1/6)^2 (2.77%).

However, after that I started getting misses, and lost motivation to continue:

1) Guess: Green. Real: Green.
2) Guess: Blue. Real: Blue.
3) Guess: Purple. Real: Yellow.
4) Guess: Purple. Real: Yellow.

It was interesting, but in the end inconclusive.

Fast forward years later, and I ended up doing a more advanced experiment using a hardware random number generator hooked up to a "psi trial" program I coded myself, where I would try to "will" the results toward a given target using "psychokinesis".

End results:

Target series
==========
Final deviation: +1762
Final ratio: 1.1508174270307283 to 1 (ie. target bucket received 15.08% more hits)
Final rarity: 1 in 2808.99 (0.035599984%)

Peak deviation: +1905
Peak rarity: 1 in 32258.1 (0.003099996%)

Control series
==========
Final deviation: +112
Final ratio: 1.008981555733761137 to 1 (ie. target bucket received 0.89% more hits)
Final rarity: 1 in 1.22 (81.967213114%)

Peak deviation: -392
Peak rarity: 1 in 5.96 (16.778523489%)

You can see the details about it here: https://www.dreamviews.com/beyond-dr...ml#post2235280
Summary of the results (in graph form) can be seen here: https://imgur.com/a/iKkSxKn

Anyway, I thought you might find it interesting since you did some trials yourself. The experiment above is one of the reasons I now consider psi "more likely than not" to be real, although I'm not fully convinced yet. (Since the state of the field overall has "mixed results" -- with some spectacular successes, but also plenty of failures, including for seemingly earnest replication attempts. And regarding my experiment specifically, there's a possibility for some flaw in my code or experiment design that I didn't notice, since I haven't had much outside feedback on it.)

It's also worth mentioning that I'm planning to start an additional, more expansive trial in the upcoming weeks/months, which I describe the procedure for here: https://www.dreamviews.com/research/...phase-2-a.html

I haven't started yet since I'm still writing the code for it, but it should be ready in a few weeks. That said, the "partial results" I'll eventually be sharing will be delayed after that -- probably for a long time -- due to the specifics of the protocol I'm following (details in the linked thread).

Assuming that I get positive results for this second phase of "psi experiments", would you be interested in having me send you the software someday for you to try as well? What's nice is that you can do it while awake, so there's no need to induce lucid dreams to perform the experiment.

-Stephen

I'm sorry for the delay in replying - I've only just checked back on here. This is very interesting for two reasons: the first is that I tried almost exactly the same experiment about three years ago. I did not carry it all the way through with repeat observations, but I put a playing card face down on a glass table, and then in a lucid dream checked the card and compared it with the original! Sadly the cards did not match, and I gave up. But that's strange that we tried the same method. Secondly it is so interesting to see that Tom helped you to calculate only a 1% chance that the cards were guessed. It makes me want to repeat the experiment...

You should, my first trial was a total miss after all.

As I get older, a lot of the magic that I used to see in the world has slowly faded. I've experienced more, understand more, am wiser, and more capable than ever...and yet a part of me longs for 'true' wonder. This particular idea is one of the few things I know about that gives me this feeling again. Of all hundreds/thousands of lucid dreams I've had, these trials still stand out in my memory.

My life now is not conducive to WBTB like it used to be, and this was my primary means of LDing. I've aquired a new device called the Zmax, which is a lab-grade EEG of whom the creator has made a 'lucid dreaming' variant. I'm hoping of using it to find a more reliable way of having lucid dreams, in part, so I can further my inquiry into this exact experiment.

I often tend to be disappointed by environments behind doors which contradict my goals. Often, it takes a second attempt before I get what I want—as the very first attempt tends produce what would make more sense rather than the desired thing that blatantly defies reality, for example: In a lucid dream, I open the kitchen door hoping to step on the moon with an earthrise displayed on a black sky, instead, I find an inaccurate replica of my kitchen in the real world.

I guess the fact that it looks like a 'kitchen' door, and perhaps on some subconscious level I think of it that way out of habit, has something to do with what initially tends to manifest in the dream world. Sometimes, if what is desired is a dream character, I knock on a door and expect it to be opened by said goal. Me and MoonageDaydream both attempted meeting Morpheus in a lucid dream. In her experience, she passed through a door expecting to find him in the next environment, but he was nowhere to be found and she soon woke up. On the other hand, I had success by doing what I did:

'I'm lying in bed in darkness but manage to vigorously rub my hands in front of my eyes until I see luminous digits. I keep rubbing them until the dark void materialises a scenery behind fully-fledged hands. I walk through a mountain pass, as though travelling through a Transylvanian mountain range, with dark green foliage on either side, leading to a little castle. I run towards the medieval structure until I reach its entrance.

'There are two massive doors and I knock on both. I step away for a second to examine a wooden gate with my fingers, I notice that a patch of ground by the entrance to the castle displays a chesslike pattern which feels like marble to the touch. Looking up, in the distance, the horizon is concealed by a foggy, nighttime landscape redolent of Minecraft, with a hint of lunar light but no moon in sight.

'I draw my attention back to the doors and focus on the left one because its wooden surface is now displaying a vibrant red. I bang on the red door whilst shouting, "Morpheus! Morpheus! Are you there? Morpheus!" My voice echoes. The door finally opens to reveal a towering character resembling a cross between an Arthurian knight and a jester. His head and neck are covered by a helmet and his pale, friendly countenance is marked by a distinct proboscis. "Are you Morpheus?" I ask him as I rub my hands to prevent a premature end to this experience. "Well, yes, my child!" Comes the British reply in the sound of an old man's calm voice. "Come in."

'I step inside to find a humble abode with some pottery and strange objects on shelves. Morpheus heads for an open kitchen. I notice that his outfit is now displaying more white fabric than before. What an extravagant lord of dreams! I think that he looks and sounds nothing like Lawrence Fishburne from*The Matrix, but regard him as my Morpheus nonetheless, so I request the obvious for a reaction by saying, "You got any pills for me?"

'Morpheus opens a refrigerator, reaches for what I presume to be pills, and hands me two little sweets of a pale blue and red colouration. I take both. As I chew them, the taste reminds me of sugary tablets that my kids have offered me before. "Come and sit, my child", he says, leading me to a round table semi-surrounded by a padded couch. He sits down first and I reluctantly follow, suddenly becoming aware that remaining still for prolonged periods might end the phase experience. I rub my hands to maintain the realism but feel like expressing my concern to what now feels like a profoundly wise character: "Morpheus, maybe I shouldn't sit. I could wake up!"

'But Morpheus seems unconcerned. Instead, after briefly regarding me with oddly pale-blue eyes and a furrowed brow betraying slight incredulity, the oneiric lord gives me a cryptic reply: "You know, child ... Your sympathy knows no bounds." He looks away and begins to fade. I stop rubbing my hands as I begin to lack confidence in maintaining the phase state. I wake up satisfied with having met Morpheus.'

Morpheus, as eccentric as he looked, was there to open the door, greet me and invite me in. It is worth noting that the environment was completely unknown as opposed to ostensibly being based on known structures in the real world. How much this plays a role on how what is desired manifests I don't know. My guess is that it depends on the psychology, predispositions and the level of expectation of the lucid dreamer in specific scenarios.

I know what you mean about the frustration in opening the door and not finding what you were looking for Summerlander. I feel as if the lucid dream is this constant struggle between will and expectation. You can't simply will something into being there, but have to trick yourself into thinking that is exactly what you would expect to find... almost as if this gives the brain the right narrative to go along with! I love your success with Morpheus!



Hi Sivason... it is funny isn't it how the same images can reoccur, and often childhood ones. Some people believe (I say some people, forgetting where I read it!) that we dream of things that we are about to forget... kind of like that memory that is about to fade has one final burst! And I suppose the childhood years were so formative, that so much of what we learn/experience now is linked back to these older memories. When I see something in a lucid dream, it can drive me nuts trying to work out why... where did it come from? Fascinating.

I wonder about dream images that keep reoccurring through out the years. I have had some dream fragments that happen maybe years apart that seem related to stuff I saw as a kid. There was a show "Land of the Lost" when I was in pre-school and I saw images from that for maybe 20 years.