Thread: A level above lucid dreaming ?

2 weeks ago i had my first lucid dream in which i was lucid but at a low level, just sometimes

few days after that i had a lucid dream and the lucid part was way greater

last night tho, it felt like i was above dreams, i saw a dream comming to me like a video getting bigger and bigger, i instantly knew that it was a lucid dream and my brain denied it and it dissapeared quickly

after that it was like i was on youtube, i could see different dreams in little rectangle and browse through them

so i see it like this :

- level 0 : normal dream
- level 1 : lucid dreaming
- level 2 : "above" dreams
- level 3 : ???

anybody have experienced this kind of thing ?

note that it was after partying hard

Haha, that's cool. Maybe you are spending some part of your day immersed on youtube, and so your mind is dreaming like that sometimes?
I've certainly had semi-lucid dreams that feel more like a video game, than a lucid. And I even think I've had experiences like yours, "video-like" dreams, and even "instagramy" dreams, lol

Anyway, what do you mean when you say "above" dream? Because I, for one, know that lucid dreams can feel so incredibly vivid (and even "more real" than waking life, at times) that it's hard to pin down what something "above" lucid dreaming would be.

Originally Posted by PRtitohp5

Haha, that's cool. Maybe you are spending some part of your day immersed on youtube, and so your mind is dreaming like that sometimes?
I've certainly had semi-lucid dreams that feel more like a video game, than a lucid. And I even think I've had experiences like yours, "video-like" dreams, and even "instagramy" dreams, lol

Anyway, what do you mean when you say "above" dream? Because I, for one, know that lucid dreams can feel so incredibly vivid (and even "more real" than waking life, at times) that it's hard to pin down what something "above" lucid dreaming would be.

Actually I don't spend hours on youtube, and I didn't in the days prior to that dream.

I took MDMA at that party and i read on the internet it leads to incredible lucid dreams.

I don't think I was simply dreaming of youtube of whatever, I could see the dreams comming to my mind, like if I had a out of body experience but sleeping. That's why i'm talking about being "above" dreams

When I had enough of what I saw I made me wake up because i just wanted to be awake and say what the fuck so bad lol

About levels, i'm not necessary talking about the difficulty, it wasn't difficult, it just happened on its own, I wanted to express the fact that you have different % of lucidness in dreams but this time it seemed to me like i went further than 100%, like i went a step higher

Originally Posted by b1smark

About levels, i'm not necessary talking about the difficulty, it wasn't difficult, it just happened on its own, I wanted to express the fact that you have different % of lucidness in dreams but this time it seemed to me like i went further than 100%, like i went a step higher

Yes, there are levels to how aware you are that you are actually dreaming, and to how many of your higher cognitive abilities show up while you are lucid. But like I said, it's hard to pin down what something above a dream would be. What I mean is, just because it feels trippier or you feel that you are out-of-body, doesn't mean that it's not a dream (or that you are more lucid), it just means that it's a cool dream -plus you probably where still a little high on psychedelics, haha.

I figure a higher level dream means one that is more difficult to attain?

I think, if it were possible, the next level above a lucid dream would be a dream were the dreamer intentionally enters somebody else's dream that the other person is actually having at that time.

Originally Posted by dolphin

I figure a higher level dream means one that is more difficult to attain?

Oh yeah! A dream yoga or sleep yoga type experience, I suppose, would count as above dream. It definitely takes more discipline to attain. And dream sharing would be very cool if it were possible. It may even be within the confines of science, although probably it would take the use of technology to do it. But who knows!

It wouldn't matter if you spend hours or minutes on something If you are like me, it will eventually show up in your dream. For me, if I hear something or see something it even a day or years, I would most like be in my dreams regardless.

It is not possible to go beyond 100% lucidity. However, if somebody thought 90% percent lucidity was actually 100% lucidity and they went over 90% percent lucidity, they would think that they went over 100% lucidity, even if they simply got closer to what indeed is 100%. For example, somebody may think they are 100% lucid, even if the dream characters aren't lucid. If the dream characters aren't lucid, then the dreamer isn't 100% lucid because 100% percent lucidity is 100% knowing, both consciously and subconsciously, that it is a dream. Dream characters are manifestations of what it is conscious and subconscious, so it follows if the dreamer is subconsciously 100% lucid then the dream characters will also be 100% lucid. Same goes with dream control. A dreamer may think they are 100% lucid but still not completely be able to control the dream. Since dream control involves both conscious and subconscious expectation, if somebody does not subconsciously expect that they can control the dream because of a subconscious doubt that they are dreaming, they may not be able to control the dream.

Think of other subconscious aspects of lucidity to have a greater understanding of what is indeed 100% lucidity.

Originally Posted by dolphin

It is not possible to go beyond 100% lucidity. However, if somebody thought 90% percent lucidity was actually 100% lucidity and they went over 90% percent lucidity, they would think that they went over 100% lucidity, even if they simply got closer to what indeed is 100%. For example, somebody may think they are 100% lucid, even if the dream characters aren't lucid. If the dream characters aren't lucid, then the dreamer isn't 100% lucid because 100% percent lucidity is 100% knowing, both consciously and subconsciously, that it is a dream. Dream characters are manifestations of what it is conscious and subconscious, so it follows if the dreamer is subconsciously 100% lucid then the dream characters will also be 100% lucid. Same goes with dream control. A dreamer may think they are 100% lucid but still not completely be able to control the dream. Since dream control involves both conscious and subconscious expectation, if somebody does not subconsciously expect that they can control the dream because of a subconscious doubt that they are dreaming, they may not be able to control the dream.

Think of other subconscious aspects of lucidity to have a greater understanding of what is indeed 100% lucidity.

I understand this but what I meant is that I went further than being lucid in a dream because i was lucid before the dream existed. I saw it comming like a screen getting bigger and bigger.

And then I had 3 dreams below me and I could fall in one of the three and be a character of it

Originally Posted by b1smark

I understand this but what I meant is that I went further than being lucid in a dream because i was lucid before the dream existed. I saw it comming like a screen getting bigger and bigger.

And then I had 3 dreams below me and I could fall in one of the three and be a character of it

You can be lucid before a dream exists. When you go from being in your bed awake to lucid dreaming -never losing consciousness-, it's called a WILD (wake induced lucid dream) You can also induce a lucid from Sleep Paralysis or some other non-waking state. A DEILD is when you induce one right after you wake from another. The point is, you can be lucid before a dream is formed.

The place you were in, the one where you could see dreams forming, is sometimes called "the void" by some oneironauts. It's a state in which you are awake but your body is asleep, it's pure unformed potential. Either way, it's still a dream hallucination of some sort- you're not beyond anything.

Anyway, being "further than being lucid" doesn't make sense to me. The definition of lucid, as far as I can tell, is that you are aware of your present situation (you are conscious that you are in fact dreaming or that you are not awake, e.g. you are in sleep paralysis, or in "the void", etc). Maybe your definition of "being lucid" is different than mine and that's why I'm not understanding you.

Originally Posted by b1smark

I understand this but what I meant is that I went further than being lucid in a dream because i was lucid before the dream existed. I saw it comming like a screen getting bigger and bigger.

And then I had 3 dreams below me and I could fall in one of the three and be a character of it

When I started lucid dreaming, I had visual HH (Hypnagogic hallucination) every time I was WILDing. HH are images or even movies that could be a beginning of a dream. When we are asleep but aware, we are able to witness forming of a dream.

I frequently saw images, that later turned into videos. They could have been in front of me as on a TV screen, or I would be flying in the air and I would be looking down at different dream scenes. When I liked one, I would transport myself into it.

So, what I think happened, you were lucid, and those were dreams or dreamlets and you were on the verge of entering one after you witnessed their creation.

It sounds like you guys have sorted out the OP's question pretty well, but I couldn't resist this, even if it is off-topic at this point:

Originally Posted by dolphin

It is not possible to go beyond 100% lucidity.

Sure it is.

Dreams of transcendence are all about going beyond 100% lucidity, about becoming more aware (or aware of more) than you are naturally able to be; about moving your awareness to new levels from a starting point of 100% lucidity.

So yes, I know it wasn't really what you meant in your post (which I think was spot-o, BTW), but I guess I was having a "Just sayin'" moment, so I just said.

Originally Posted by Sageous

Dreams of transcendence are all about going beyond 100% lucidity, about becoming more aware (or aware of more) than you are naturally able to be; about moving your awareness to new levels from a starting point of 100% lucidity.

Oh, that's cool!!

Originally Posted by dolphin

It is not possible to go beyond 100% lucidity. However, if somebody thought 90% percent lucidity was actually 100% lucidity and they went over 90% percent lucidity, they would think that they went over 100% lucidity, even if they simply got closer to what indeed is 100%. For example, somebody may think they are 100% lucid, even if the dream characters aren't lucid. If the dream characters aren't lucid, then the dreamer isn't 100% lucid because 100% percent lucidity is 100% knowing, both consciously and subconsciously, that it is a dream. Dream characters are manifestations of what it is conscious and subconscious, so it follows if the dreamer is subconsciously 100% lucid then the dream characters will also be 100% lucid. Same goes with dream control. A dreamer may think they are 100% lucid but still not completely be able to control the dream. Since dream control involves both conscious and subconscious expectation, if somebody does not subconsciously expect that they can control the dream because of a subconscious doubt that they are dreaming, they may not be able to control the dream.

Think of other subconscious aspects of lucidity to have a greater understanding of what is indeed 100% lucidity.

Hn,kind of abit mind blown there. Lol Thanks, never thought about that,when it comes to dream characters. But along with everything that everyone has said,drugs or not,which could be playing a role ,experience is maybe the biggest factor here? If my first lucid dream wasn't among my highest lucidity,and stability. I'd assume I hit a higher level if I experienced it as my third LD later on instead.

If I had caught this thread a bit earlier, I would have also suggested that maybe you had become lucid before the dream started and witnessed the dream forming. I've encountered this quite a few times.

Also, just to say something that I don't think anybody said yet (unless I missed it): It might even be possible that you had a level of self-awareness (lucidity) such that you became a bit more conscious than usual of what the underlying unconscious parts of your mind were doing in the process of forming a dream. I've had a few rare experiences that felt a bit like this, and they can be rather hard to describe. There was one LD some time ago I remember where it seemed like just before I “fully” became conscious and lucid I was having some sort of deep-down “below the surface” thoughts that seemed almost as if I was unconsciously arranging for and planning the process of becoming lucid a moment later. It was hard to remember and rather vague. Perhaps this was just a side-effect of the NLD plot of the dream, but maybe it was actually something deeper than that. I've had a few other cases where I was able to remember having a specific, complex (despite happening within only the space of a second or two) path of thoughts leading to lucidity, originating deep down on an almost unconscious level and then spreading out and upward, eventually leading to full conscious realization of lucidity. It was a rather interesting process to be able to observe and actually remember upon awakening. So, it certainly seems plausible to me that something like actually becoming conscious of normally-unconscious mental activity can occur in some cases.

Whether there's a such thing as 100% lucidity is something I could never say for certain and perhaps never will. I somehow suspect that no matter high a level of lucidity I attain, it could always be possible to go even higher. I've heard of people accomplishing some amazing mental feats that I never would have imagined possible, so it seems unwise to dictate a particular upper possible limit. This does mean I always tend to describe my LDs as low-level lucidity, though, because I have no idea how high it can truly go.