Thread: Re-writing Communism

Kromoh is right about the rich getting richer and the poor getting poorer thing. But then, we don't live in a fully capitalist society. In American society in particular, we have many scholarships and financial aid programs that help the children of less fortunate folk.

Originally Posted by Black_Eagle

Kromoh is right about the rich getting richer and the poor getting poorer thing.

How so?

UM, don't ignore all the other things I've said. Your analogy is improper, because it doesn't consider the pre-existing rich of each of the people in the house. Something I've already explained.

Reply to my last post. Then, we can go on.

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@ Blueline:

If you are born rich, you have access to better education, to better opportunities, and to financial support when starting a career. I think I do not have to explain to a capitalist that profit is proportional to investment. If you are, however, born in a poor family, you have access to bad education, have little opportunities, and no financial support at all when you become economically active. High chances are you'd end up in a lousy job. That's why it's a vicious cycle, and that is why social inequality has only been getting worse. It's not an opinion, it's a fact - all studies show social inequality is on exponential rise.

That is why capitalism isn't a meritocracy. If everyone started their economical activity with the same amount, and had the same opportunities, it would be a meritocracy, but that's not how it works. You probably don't see this because you're at the superior end on the social pyramid. If you were poor, you'd realize this presto.

Originally Posted by Kromoh

@ Blueline:

If you are born rich, you have access to better education, to better opportunities, and to financial support when starting a career. I think I do not have to explain to a capitalist that profit is proportional to investment. If you are, however, born in a poor family, you have access to bad education, have little opportunities, and no financial support at all when you become economically active. High chances are you'd end up in a lousy job. That's why it's a vicious cycle, and that is why social inequality has only been getting worse. It's not an opinion, it's a fact - all studies show social inequality is on exponential rise.

That is why capitalism isn't a meritocracy. If everyone started their economical activity with the same amount, and had the same opportunities, it would be a meritocracy, but that's not how it works.

Would you agree that the definition of "meritocracy" is a system in which the talented are chosen and moved ahead on the basis of their achievement, or something of that sort?

Originally Posted by Kromoh

UM, don't ignore all the other things I've said. Your analogy is improper, because it doesn't consider the pre-existing rich of each of the people in the house. Something I've already explained.

Reply to my last post. Then, we can go on.

I know there are differences, as there are with all analogies. The point of an analogy is not to be identical. It is the relevant parallel that matters. The relevant parallel concerning the house and a nation is the level of efficiency and effectiveness in a system that lacks individual incentive. See the parallel? Now tell me how that house system would work. Then tell me why I know people who went from rags to riches in a capitalist system. I also want the answer to my question of why people would climb the ladder if they are not rewarded for it. You have dodged that question of mine repeatedly in several threads now. I am not going to keep chasing every tangent you bring up. Answer my questions, and then we can move on to your next topic changes.

Originally Posted by Universal Mind

I know there are differences, as there are with all analogies. The point of an analogy is not to be identical. It is the relevant parallel that matters. The relevant parallel concerning the house and a nation is the level of efficiency and effectiveness in a system that lacks individual incentive. See the parallel? Now tell me how that house system would work. Then tell me why I know people who went from rags to riches in a capitalist system. I also want the answer to my question of why people would climb the ladder if they are not rewarded for it. You have dodged that question of mine repeatedly in several threads now. I am not going to keep chasing every tangent you bring up. Answer my questions, and then we can move on to your next topic changes.

Oh well. You just don't wanna admit you have no answer for what I brought up. It's not tangent, it's the one single reason Capitalism doesn't work. It's the core of my arguments.

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BLUELINE, my definition of meritocracy is a different one. But still, Capitalism is not a meritocracy, even in your terms. A genius in Cambodia will never be rich. A genius in a rich family in England probably will.

Im sorry, it is easy to generalize the rich getting richer and the poor getting poorer in capitalism, but apparently thats not what goes on or there wouldnt be a middle class that poor can go up to, or that from the middle can move to upper.

As I see it, both pure communism and pure capitalism do not work. One because of no guiding forces for the successful businesses to have to follow, the other because it does not take human greed in to account. A balance of the two principles is needed. Id write a detail of how but its late ><

Originally Posted by tkdyo

Im sorry, it is easy to generalize the rich getting richer and the poor getting poorer in capitalism, but apparently thats not what goes on or there wouldnt be a middle class that poor can go up to, or that from the middle can move to upper.

Just a remark here. Social inequality has been getting worse day in and day out. The middle class starts to merge with the working class everywhere. The generalization here isn't improper at all. If there is anyone born poor that got rich, or born rich that got poor, you just know it's one rare exception.

Originally Posted by Kromoh

Oh well. You just don't wanna admit you have no answer for what I brought up. It's not tangent, it's the one single reason Capitalism doesn't work. It's the core of my arguments.

You dodged all of my questions, some of which were points about new issues you brought up in order to dodge the previous questions, and you accuse me of dodging? Kromoh, I am not going to follow you on subject change after subject change. I made initial points and then asked you stump questions on your dodges. Now answer what I brought up, or we are through here. I guess you are stumped.

Originally Posted by Universal Mind

You dodged all of my questions, some of which were points about new issues you brought up in order to dodge the previous questions, and you accuse me of dodging? Kromoh, I am not going to follow you on subject change after subject change. I made initial points and then asked you stump questions on your dodges. Now answer what I brought up, or we are through here. I guess you are stumped.

More dodging.

You should be a politician. I mean, look at post #16. Six lines of text and no answer at all. You take more time not-answering than it would take to answer me. You remind me of this local politician named Paulo Maluf. He was involved in a billionaire corruption scheme, just for the record.

Or perhaps you just don't have an answer.

I'm assuming you're speaking of the global scale?

Just because social inequality is on the rise doesn't mean the poor are getting poorer.

Originally Posted by BLUELINE976

How so?

My parents couldn't afford to buy me a car. And being the youngest, my older siblings had more rights to the family car. I always knew that any car in my life would be paid out of my own pocket. Catch 22. How do I go to work without a vehicle? How do I afford a car without work? The public transportation here sucks real balls, and mostly only takes you to min. wage jobs anyways. Good luck affording any car with that kind of job...

My parents paid the bills and were already chaperoning as much as they could without sacrificing work. My mom made a choice. Take my sister to school, or take me to work? She deemed school was more important. I focused on school as well.

Finally I got a lucky break. My moms friend gave us a car for pennies. Having access to a car for the first time in my life, I can now get my license. I was 23 years old. Getting my license was perfect timing, because my new job requires one. It paid about $9 an hour, and lo and behold, it was not on the bus route.

Only six months later the car taking me to work breaks down. Mom sat and spoke with me and told me that night, I would have to quit my job because she can't afford to take me to work. She told me she would save up the money as much as she can so she can buy me a car in the future. My whole life fell apart in that moment. I knew that my mom, who's never been able to buy a car for herself, would never be able to buy a car for me. No car. No job. I would be stuck living with my parents indefinitely. I COULDN'T ACCEPT THIS!!

I told my mom that night that tomorrow I was going to buy a NEW car. She told me to grow up because not even my sister could afford a new car and her income was higher than mine. That night I research cars, I choose my car. And I swore to God it was bloody fucking mine because my life fucking depended on it. SERIOUSLY IT DOES!

The next day mom takes me to the dealership, just to muse me. Mom and the salesman both agree that because of my income level I should try looking at some of their used cars. But living with my parents for the past 23 years, I knew that USED CARS COST MORE and are unreliable. I wanted the ten year warranty. I told the salesman I wanted a NEW car.

By the end of the day everyone knew me by name because I was the little fish that got away . Not only was the salesman stunned that a bank qualified me, the banks actually started fighting over me so I got the best deal as possible.

When I drove home with my new car, no one in the family congratulated me. Dad had never been able to buy a new car, so it took almost a week for him to register that the car was mine, and brand spanking new.

I'm happy to have an awesome car, with awesome mileage, ten year warranty and other perks. I KNOW WHAT A LUXURY IT IS. She's my little golden chariot. More importantly I'm happy that I'm ABLE to go to work. What's the point of my story? The point is this liberty came into my life at the age of 23!! Other people knew this liberty at the age of 16.

Now imagine a 16 year old who was given a car, even a hand me down. Fast forward into the future. They are now 23 years old. Who has more job experience? Whose resume looks better because they have more job experience? Who has more disposable income because their car is virtually free?

Is it too hard to imagine how that 23 year old is better off than I was at 23??

I'm the only one at my job currently making a car payment. With the exception of my old boss, everyone else has a vehicle that mom or dad gave them. Having the extra income allows them to put the extra money into other things, like apartment bills. I think being able to pay the apartment bills is a luxury. I luxury I very much look forward to doing soon.

congrats on your hard work and acheivement...thats not really an example of the poor getting poorer though seeing as you became better off. You have a nice new car that will last a long time, long enough to pass down to your kids, then they will be on par with the others in their generation.

my story

My parents pulled themselves up from lower to middle class as well. When they got married, they had both just gotten out of high school. My dad worked while going to school and my mom got her associates as well as took care of the kids. (they had 3 during this). After getting out of college they were very careful how they spent and how they saved. They kept an emergency fund, and simply paid bills. My mom was a dentist nurse (not a rich dentist office by any means) and my dad was an accountant for a small company and did taxes in the winter as well. Now they are in their 60s, house paid off, cars paid off, my dad is about to retire, my mom did when I was born. They are solid middle class and are proud of it. My siblings are on the upper side of middle class thanks to being able to go to college because of my parents (as will I after college) and, following the same method, I plan to further climb the ladder. Hard work is still rewarded in our society, you just have to plan ahead.