Thread: Laws of the Dream Plane, Dream Battle Theory

Nice info.

I'd have to agree that there is an inner and outer world and your description about the planes and types of entities seems mostly accurate. However, I'm not sure I agree with your concept of stealing energy. No matter who I'm fighting I never lose any energy, unless they are trying to steal my life force directly. If thoughts are energy, how can you lose energy, you would be losing thoughts? thoughts are continuous unless you are good at stopping them which means a continuous supply of energy does it not?

Originally Posted by Eonnn

Nice info.

I'd have to agree that there is an inner and outer world and your description about the planes and types of entities seems mostly accurate. However, I'm not sure I agree with your concept of stealing energy. No matter who I'm fighting I never lose any energy, unless they are trying to steal my life force directly. If thoughts are energy, how can you lose energy, you would be losing thoughts? thoughts are continuous unless you are good at stopping them which means a continuous supply of energy does it not?

Thoughts are energy, but so is everything.

As far as stealing energy, here is an example. Someone starts arguing with you out of the blue. You argue back. They use circular logic and ad hominem attacks, yet you still try to be logical and rational. After a while, you start to get really pissed off. After the argument, you feel depleted and grouchy, but you were just in a good mood ten minutes ago.

That's good that you don't get tired from dream battling.

As for ignoring dream characters to see if they are real, it's obviously not a foolproof method. Because after you ignore, you have check to see if they're still there, which is the opposite of ignoring them. (Well, you don't have to check, and it's best if you don't, but to verify a suspect dreamer, it's hard not to) But ignoring annoying DCs is an invaluable tool for lucid dreamers. It lets you avoid unnecessary distractions and get on with what you really want to do. Once you get the hang of doing this, you know how it works and what to expect. Having knowledge of how this works, when you encounter a DC that won't go away despite your efforts, then you have to admit that's some suspect behavior. Not definite proof, but you have to start somewhere.

Originally Posted by Eonnn

I'm not sure I agree with your concept of stealing energy. No matter who I'm fighting I never lose any energy, unless they are trying to steal my life force directly. If thoughts are energy, how can you lose energy, you would be losing thoughts? thoughts are continuous unless you are good at stopping them which means a continuous supply of energy does it not?

I don't like the energy analogy for dream combat. That term gets thrown around too loosely. It's more like each dreamer has a finite amount of attention, and dream combat involves tying to tie up as much of the other person's attention as possible.

When I was encountering Gimpy, who Nomad calls Tooth, I was running away a lot. At one point I ran and jumped into some crazy white water rapids, and Gimpy said "Nice one!". He followed me in and I lost him after that. It wasn't until later that I understood that the intense white water and currents overwhelmed his senses. So much that he wasn't able to focus on me anymore.

Originally Posted by The Cusp

When I was encountering Gimpy, who Nomad calls Tooth, I was running away a lot. At one point I ran and jumped into some crazy white water rapids, and Gimpy said "Nice one!". He followed me in and I lost him after that. It wasn't until later that I understood that the intense white water and currents overwhelmed his senses. So much that he wasn't able to focus on me anymore.

Exactly... being lucid is like a mushroom trip almost... in that it's easy to get lost in detail and forget everything instead of staying focused. Staying focused takes true awareness.

Originally Posted by GMoney

The only way to prove shared dreaming to Oneironaut is to enter Oneironaut's dream and tell him what happened before he posts his dream journal. He's the only one who would know that you didn't collude beforehand and he would know for sure that you weren't just influenced and had coincidentally similar dreams. Maybe shared dreaming will have to be proven individually to each separate person.

I don't know about separate entities, as they can't be empirically proven and there's no way to really know for sure. But with shared dreaming, it can be proven and should be, if it's real.

Oneironaut's a really intelligent guy and one of, if not the most rational poster on the forum. I think proving SDing to him would be a huge shot in the arm for shared dreaming and really, the only way to prove it to him for sure would be to send him his dreams before he posts them. Fair enough? Nomad, I really think you should share a dream with him to back up what you're saying. If he experiences it for himself over a large enough sample period (maybe 10 dreams would be enough to eliminate any chance of coincidence?) I'm sure he'll become a supporter of it and search for rational explanations.

I'd do it myself, but I still don't know how to LD yet.

PS: I'm trying this experiment with a few other dreamers on the forum. I'll let you guys know my results, as I'm having four people try to enter my dreams and see if any of them match up with mine.

That may not be the only way to convince him. I agree that Oneironaut is a very rational intelligent person, though. On the other hand, I am not interested in convincing anyone of anything. I state my ideas and opinions, and if people are interested, we discuss, if not, we don't.

The best way for people to be convinced of shared dreaming is for them to do it themselves. Shared dreams are often confirmed randomly through two non-lucid dreamers initially without setting intent.

One dreamer going into another's dream to make them lucid, to make them remember their dreams, or to convince them of shared dreaming doesn't work very well.

***

When Raven and I first started doing confirmed shared dreaming, someone asked us to go into his dream and make him lucid. (About 30 or 40 people have asked us to do this since then.) It didn't work. Raven and I both remembered the dream, but he did not remember anything. In the dream, he kept insisting it was waking life, and asking for a drink of water. Even Walms, who has amazing dream recall, did not remember our first shared dream. I battled him while Raven watched. Raven and I both remembered the dream. It's in the first shared dreaming DJ. Walms did not, even though his recall is excellent, and he remembers many dreams every night, often being lucid.

Walms and I have never really sync'ed up really well so that the dreams match as well as they do with Raven and I, or others. So, just because Oneironaut and I are both proficient lucid dreamers, it does not mean that we could easily have a confirmed shared dream. The most important dream skill is Recall, then Lucidity, then Control.

If anyone wants to find out for themselves if shared dreaming is real, they should pick a partner (or partners) who's DJ they love reading, and try to meet up with that person at a certain place in dreams.

That being said.... I had a dream of Oneironaut.

Originally Posted by WakingNomad

I am not interested in convincing anyone of anything. I state my ideas and opinions, and if people are interested, we discuss, if not, we don't.

Why not?? If what you're saying is true, it's incredibly radical and a major breakthrough in modern science. If you don't want to become famous/rich for discovering something potentially useful and universal, I'm not sure what to say. If you really can share dreams, why don't you do it with the people who don't believe you? Why would you rather argue over theories than actually go into their dreams and prove them wrong?

Originally Posted by WakingNomad

One dreamer going into another's dream to make them lucid, to make them remember their dreams, or to convince them of shared dreaming doesn't work very well.

Why is that? There's absolutely no reason why that should be the case. So you're trying to tell me that if you try to have a shared dream you can't, but if you don't try it will happen naturally? That makes no sense whatsoever. Why can Raven remember your shared dreams but Walms/Hukif can't? If shared dreaming is real it has to be universal. You can't share dreams with some people but not others - it's everyone or no one.

You consistently decline challenges to prove your point and avoid actually providing evidence for what you're claiming. If you were arguing something impossible or invisible, I would understand why. But you're advocating a viewpoint that can be easily proven!! Why are you hiding and evading any rational explanations? If you're not going to back up your statements when you (supposedly) have the ability to, you need to stop trying to get others to believe what you're saying. Provide evidence or stop talking about it.

I like the conflicting ideas presented in this thread . Was the dream character the subconscious or another entity? How could you ever possibly know if it is another entity? If it isn't, what does it mean if your own subconscious attacks you without you even expecting any form of attack? Why would the subconscious seem to be against the dreamer?

Either way, I find any conscious dream character *whether the manifestation of your subconscious or not* really interesting!

And GMoney, Nomad doesn't have to prove anything to anyone. On this forum, we like to share our subjective experiences and encourage others to experience the same.

Originally Posted by WakingNomad
I am not interested in convincing anyone of anything. I state my ideas and opinions, and if people are interested, we discuss, if not, we don't.

GMoney
Why not??
Because it's impossible to convince someone. They have to experience it for themselves.
If what you're saying is true, it's incredibly radical and a major breakthrough in modern science. If you don't want to become famous/rich for discovering something potentially useful and universal, I'm not sure what to say.
I am not interested in riches and fame.

If you really can share dreams, why don't you do it with the people who don't believe you?
I have. They don't remember.

Why would you rather argue over theories than actually go into their dreams and prove them wrong?
see above.

Originally Posted by WakingNomad
One dreamer going into another's dream to make them lucid, to make them remember their dreams, or to convince them of shared dreaming doesn't work very well.

GMoney
Why is that?
I don't know. I have tried many times. It's nearly impossible for Raven to make me lucid when I don't want to be. Apparently Dream Recall and Lucidity are two skills people must do for themselves.

There's absolutely no reason why that should be the case. So you're trying to tell me that if you try to have a shared dream you can't, but if you don't try it will happen naturally?
No. I am saying under optimal conditions, both dreamers have some degree of mastery of the two most important dream skills.

That makes no sense whatsoever. Why can Raven remember your shared dreams but Walms/Hukif can't?

I don't know. Walms and I remember each other, but not too well. I don't know who Hukif is. Raven and I shared dreams as kids, so that's one reason why it's easy for us.

If shared dreaming is real it has to be universal. You can't share dreams with some people but not others - it's everyone or no one.
Correct.

You consistently decline challenges to prove your point and avoid actually providing evidence for what you're claiming. If you were arguing something impossible or invisible, I would understand why. But you're advocating a viewpoint that can be easily proven!!

No, it can't easily be proven. You are suggesting I enter the dreams of skeptics to convince them shared dreaming is real. Raven and I tried that. I am not going to do it again. It's a waste of energy. 1) They may not remember the dream. 2) They may not recognize me. 3) I may not remember the dream. The only way to prove scientifically that shared dreaming is real, is for two shared dreamers to go into a sleep lab where they are isolated from each other. Then, they can be given a place to meet up in dreams by a third party, and write their dreams down the next morning.

However, there are only about six sleep labs on the continent of North America. I actually have tried to contact Stephen Laberge, and various sleep and dream scientists. They are all either flaky, or don't return my calls or emails. Mainstream Western science is uninterested in shared dreaming.

Why are you hiding and evading any rational explanations?
Rational explanation for what? Shared dreaming? Here's the explanation. The Dream Plane is another plane of existence, greater than the meeting of minds. Our dream bodies go there when we dream.

If you're not going to back up your statements when you (supposedly) have the ability to, you need to stop trying to get others to believe what you're saying.

I am not trying to get others to believe what I am saying. People can believe whatever they want.

Provide evidence or stop talking about it.
No.

Originally Posted by The Cusp

I don't like the energy analogy for dream combat. That term gets thrown around too loosely. It's more like each dreamer has a finite amount of attention, and dream combat involves tying to tie up as much of the other person's attention as possible.

I have to agree with that too. In dreams, I never get tired in or after a fight like Eonnn. Landing a blow causes an opponent to pay attention to the pain, and the more you stagger and attack the them, the more attention goes to their pain. After a while, the can't pay attention to anything else except for the pain.