Thread: WILD According to Sageous Q & A

Originally Posted by RareCola

As for what to do during the WBTB. I tend to get up, use the bathroom, grab a drink of water and then either chill out in bed visualising or reading a book (though not one about dreaming). Would it matter to read a book other than one that's about dreaming? I always read at bed time anyway so it's not exactly a "day time activity" for me.

Sure, reading something else is fine...but you might want to make sure it isn't something that works your mind too much. If it's not a dream-related book, I would stick to something like simple fiction.

Also, how about checking DreamViews, for example? It ticks the dreaming mindset by reading it, but I fear looking at a screen may be detrimental.

All apologies to the DV guys, but going on the site, or any site, might not be a good idea. This is for a couple of reasons, the primary one being just what you said: turning on that computer/pad/phone alone starts firing neurons meant for waking life, and you might not be able to shut them off. In other words, yeah, just looking at that screen might be enough to shelf your dreaming mind for the day. Also, reading DV itself could cause some problems in the form of distraction -- you might, for instance, start reading someone else's DJ and lose complete track of the dreams you were just having, or, worse, you might get involved in a thread about, say, the problems with WILD, and hand yourself those problems by the sheer strength of suggestion. There are more reasons, but I think you get the idea -- the internet is a mental engine on its own, and connecting to it might interrupt the performance of your own mental engine in terms of dreaming.

What about minimum time to stay up? I noticed you mentioned maximum time, but I didn't see a minimum.

I don't think there is a minimum, as long as you rouse yourself enough to step out of bed, if only for a quick trip to the bathroom. The important thing is to wake up for a bit, just to gather your waking consciousness for your upcoming trip into WILDland. If you can gather it quickly, that's just fine!

Stepping out of bed is important though, because it can be very easy to sleepily say, "No problem, I'm awake; I'll just stay right here where it's warm," only to fall right back to sleep before having a chance to start WILD. (As I mentioned in the session, there is an exception to this, in the form of DEILD, which we'll talk about should we get to it).

Originally Posted by Ctharlhie

I know exactly what you mean about alarm clocks 'shocking' you awake. Hell, my alarm shocks me awake in the morning, let alone during WBTB.

However, I've been unsuccessful in convincing myself to recognise my brief awakenings in the past and when I have been successful I woke constantly through the night, leading to poor sleep. I'm a very heavy sleeper.

That is a problem. I can think of a few solutions off-hand, which I'm guessing you have already considered:

First, they do make "gentle" alarm clocks designed to wake deep sleepers gradually... I guess if you have to be woken up by a machine, at least you can have it happen as gently as possible.

If there is someone else in your house who is a lighter sleep than you, you might convince them to waken you at a time you think best...this doesn't always end well, though, and could get expensive.

Finally, and most likely your best solution: you might consider simply doing your WBTB after you wake up naturally in the morning. If you're a good sleeper you'll likely be able to get back to sleep, and the late application could lead to some extended REM activity.

Originally Posted by Sageous

That is a problem. I can think of a few solutions off-hand, which I'm guessing you have already considered:

First, they do make "gentle" alarm clocks designed to wake deep sleepers gradually... I guess if you have to be woken up by a machine, at least you can have it happen as gently as possible.

If there is someone else in your house who is a lighter sleep than you, you might convince them to waken you at a time you think best...this doesn't always end well, though, and could get expensive.

Finally, and most likely your best solution: you might consider simply doing your WBTB after you wake up naturally in the morning. If you're a good sleeper you'll likely be able to get back to sleep, and the late application could lead to some extended REM activity.

Yes I think the last solution is best. I seem to be getting very vivid dream imagery when I wake up in the morning and just snooze. I suppose I could experiment with cycle adjustment?
I'll try the auto-suggestion Rarecola suggested, the only reason I'm resistant is that it may interfere with my regular MILD practice. Then again, if it's successful it will help my MILD practice out a bunch.

Oh and by the way I think this topic was definitely worthy of its own lesson

Also, I'm really looking forward to the next lesson, 'physical sensations', it's such an area of mystery and (in my humble opinion) where most people get it wrong: "Oh look my left big toe is somewhat numb, I'M GOING INTO SLEEP PARALYSIS"*

*How my first 10 or so WILD attempts went.

I always had it easy with waking up for WBTBs, never used alarms. I just use auto-suggestion and it works great, in fact, it is something that I have been using for a very long time ago before I even became interested in dreams, just as a way to wake up early in the mornings with no alarm.
Anyway, I still have a lot RRC to do O: , just hope I'm doing it right. I just think of my existence and how things around me are being affected simply because I'm there. And I also think of where I was, where I'll be and where I am. Problem (or non-problem? :p) is that most of the time I'm in front of the computer, since I study, work and do everything here, haha, I get up every hour or so to stretch and sometimes meditate though, and other bodily functions of course :p

Thanks for that lesson, Sageous! That makes me think more about timing and how it is so important for the building of a WILD.

I do have a question though. How would I know where to start in finding the right time to wake up for WBTB? And can you give an example?
I'm sorry if that has already been mentioned here and I missed it. :/

Originally Posted by Ctharlhie

Yes I think the last solution is best. I seem to be getting very vivid dream imagery when I wake up in the morning and just snooze. I suppose I could experiment with cycle adjustment?

If you mean by "cycle adjustment" something like going to bed earlier to buy yourself more post-sleep dream time in the morning then yes, that might be a good idea. It would likely help your MILD's to, by changing things up a bit on the other end. If you meant something else and I misunderstood, let me know.

I'll try the auto-suggestion Rarecola suggested, the only reason I'm resistant is that it may interfere with my regular MILD practice. Then again, if it's successful it will help my MILD practice out a bunch.

Good idea, and I don't think it would hurt -- you might even be able to build a "wake up" suggestion right into your MILD prep, if that makes any sense. And yes, such an addition would likely help, or at worst complement your MILD's with additional focus.

Originally Posted by Bakuryu

I still have a lot RRC to do O: , just hope I'm doing it right. I just think of my existence and how things around me are being affected simply because I'm there. And I also think of where I was, where I'll be and where I am. Problem (or non-problem? :p) is that most of the time I'm in front of the computer, since I study, work and do everything here, haha, I get up every hour or so to stretch and sometimes meditate though, and other bodily functions of course :p

Seems like you have a good enough understanding of the RRC You might think more about your presence in reality, rather than your existence; thinking about things like "existence" tends to prompt "deep" thoughts that might lead your mind on to intellectual adventures that could threaten the simple sense of wonder about your presence in reality -- self-awareness -- that the RRC should inspire.

Your time before the computer is only a problem for RRC's if you let become one. After all, your body may not have moved, but your mind was certainly somewhere five minutes earlier, and will be somewhere else five minutes later. In a sense, we potentially travel through -- and manufacture -- far more "reality" when working at a computer than when standing in a room. You might have an advantage, RRC-wise!

And on a practical note, be careful of inadvertently doing your RRC's only during "bodily function" moments. Since those "quiet" times seem to welcome actions like RRC's, you might find yourself checking on reality whenever you're indisposed, and that could lead to some curious day residue in your dreams!

Originally Posted by Sydney

I do have a question though. How would I know where to start in finding the right time to wake up for WBTB? And can you give an example?

The best way to find the right time, I think, is by looking at your sleep schedule during days off, when nothing is planned for that day (otherwise known as days you can wake up without an alarm, and have no obligations to interfere with dreams that might run long).

Think about when you go to bed and when you normally wake up on those days. For instance, if you normally go to bed by midnight on a Friday and get out of bed at 9am on a Saturday, you may find yourself naturally rousing from REM sleep now and then after about 6am -- we all do it; but tend to ignore it. So, consider catching the first arousal you notice after 6am to do WBTB; that way you'll have had 6 hours of regular sleep behind you, and the REM cycles are probably getting close enough together.

Or you might know that on Saturdays you always seem to wake up at dawn, and usually roll over and go back to sleep. If that's the case, don't roll over; do WBTB instead.

Keep in mind that you'll need to tailor this to your own habits --for instance, if you always get up at dawn on Saturdays, you'll need to start WBTB much earlier.

I just thought of this, too: you could also figure out (perhaps by checking your dream journal) when your dreams are most lucid, vivid, or both (that's late morning for me), and do your WBTB just before that time. Just a thought...

I find I always seem to wake from lucid dreams at 4:30. On the dot.

should I aim to wbtb around then? (I go to bed from 10-11pm)

Originally Posted by Ctharlhie

I find I always seem to wake from lucid dreams at 4:30. On the dot.

should I aim to wbtb around then? (I go to bed from 10-11pm)

That sounds like a good plan: Not only are you getting a needed 5+ hours of sleep, but you're also going to be doing WBTB at right around the time your REM cycles and awareness tend to be in natural sync. So yes, to be finishing WBTB and starting WILD at just after 4am seems like the time for you.

Now you just need a way to comfortably wake up at around 4am. But then again who knows? Maybe just the planning and expectation of the event will help you to wake up at that time naturally...

Another question I forgot to ask. At the moment in my life I'm on a pretty backwards schedule. I'm a freelance graphic designer and doing a lot of work for people living in the US, so to accommodate my sleep schedule usually revolves around going to bed about 3-4am. This obviously means that, by the time I do my WBTB it's already light outside and sadly I don't have completely blackout curtains. I think I remember reading somewhere that having daylight can be detrimental to the WBTB and becoming lucid. Is there any truth in this, does it matter?

Originally Posted by RareCola

Another question I forgot to ask. At the moment in my life I'm on a pretty backwards schedule. I'm a freelance graphic designer and doing a lot of work for people living in the US, so to accommodate my sleep schedule usually revolves around going to bed about 3-4am. This obviously means that, by the time I do my WBTB it's already light outside and sadly I don't have completely blackout curtains. I think I remember reading somewhere that having daylight can be detrimental to the WBTB and becoming lucid. Is there any truth in this, does it matter?

Light is indeed the enemy of sleep, and a genuine distraction in LD'ing, given the dreamer's proximity to physical consciousness ('scuse me: actual wakefulness).

How about investing in a decent sleep mask? That's what I do, given that my best time for LD'ing is usually late morning...I do have blackout curtains, but they're awful. Another consideration, if possible, would be to take a couple of days off and schedule your WILD attempt on the 2nd day, but I know that might be remarkably impractical.

If you get a sleep mask, you might wear it for a couple of nights to get used to it so you don't spend your whole WILD attempt thinking about it.

Originally Posted by Sageous

I assume that you are attending this class because you either do not know how to do a WILD, or think you know but can't seem to get them to work. If you are already proficient at WILD'ing, then I imagine you would not be here.

Ok, sorry, you of course know I already know how to. I did not mean any offense. I have been praticipating, as a form of comradary and to be supportive. That said, my question was blatently out of place and I can not imagine what I was thinking posting it here. I should have PMd you. You are the only other person I know with a similar amount of experience, so I figured I would get your opinion, but I must have still been half asleep to post it here instead of in a PM. Sorry for my poor behavior and I will leave you to teach these fine students. Every one seems to be enthusiastic.

^^ No worries, Sivason...I should have been more receptive to your good support, especially considering how abysmal my support of your class has been (I have been lurking, for what that's worth). Don't worry also about offending...I've got a fairly thick skin, and wasn't bothered on a personal level at all. Besides, it turns out your question was most helpful because you gave me a good opportunity to say a few words about not jumping the gun and bearing with the pace of my class, which I had wanted to do anyway. So indeed your timing was most helpful, thank you!

At least you got my opinion about your question, snarky as its tone may have been!

So, first night taking the advice for the WBTB, done it completely naturally and I achieved a DILD!

It wasn't just the WBTB though, I believe I have thanks to give to the RRC and general awareness too, because initially my reality check failed and I was beginning to assume it was real life but general awareness lead me to believe otherwise, after forcing my mind to think about RRC and keeping a high state of awareness, I realised it was a dream and finally a noseplug reality check succeeded.

It wasn't the best of lucid dreams, I was still somewhat sceptical I was dreaming after so many failed reality checks so I couldn't really will myself to do anything in fear that it may actually be real life, despite knowing that it must be a dream. After this I quickly lost the dream when I was testing the boundaries of my world. The point is though, it seems the WBTB worked well, as well as the RRC and awareness!

EDIT: Just made a dream journal entry about it with more detail here.

^^ That's good news, RareCola! Not giant steps, maybe, but at least you could see the potential of self-awareness and the RRC... Now you can remind yourself thatnext time it'll be even better!

I just read Lesson 2 and have a few questions, Sageous:

1. I have had a few WILDs in my life and all have occurred by accident at the onset of sleep. Do you think it is harmful to attempt a WILD at the onset of sleep in addition to the WBTB WILD?

2. For the WBTB, for a while I was doing a WBTB after every sleep cycle (about every two hours), by waking, writing down my dreams, then attempting an LD. This would usually mean 2-3 of waking every night. Are multiple WBTBs ok, or is it better to stick with just one?

3. You mentioned selecting a specific day to WILD, would it be ok to attempt a WILD every night?

4. Right now I am in the middle of a big life change involving moving to another state. Days where I can sleep in and have nothing to do are almost nonexistent right now, plus my sleep schedule is all over the place. Not surprisingly, my LD count has gone from 1-2 a week to nothing. Is it even possible for me to work new routines into my chaotic sleep schedule, or will WILDing success have to wait until I am sufficiently settled into a new routine?

Weird because last night i had three dreams (pretty good for me) and the last of the three was my very first lucid dream!

I have to thank Sageous though because of the RCC's and new found awareness i have gotten from this class is what made me become lucid. It all started because i wanted to figure out my perfect timing to WILD. I set my alarm at 3 45 and went to bed at like 10. I find that my most vivid dreams are after about 5 and a half hours of sleep. But instead of using the alarm clock to wake me up, i was focusing on waking up before my alarm clock and use it as a failsafe just in case i don't wake up. I repeated "I am going to wake up before my alarm and remember a dream quite vividly." (i've also been working on DR). I repeated it in my mind before i fell asleep and at one point i told myself to wake up at 3 30 instead of 3 45. What do ya know, I woke up at exactly 3 34 before my alarm clock! Amazing how my mind did that just from me telling myself i can. I remembered the dream i was dreaming quite well and fell back asleep afterwards. i then woke up after a second dream and remembered that dream quite vividly also! I recorded that dream in my DJ once again and fell back asleep shortly after.

This next dream though was different. . . it was my very first lucid dream! The first half was a normal non-lucid dream until i am at some shopping center with a girl DC. I notice a car driving by that instead of having wheels, it had the sort of stone wheel things from the Flintstones! I immediately realized it because of the new found awareness i have learned from Sageous and the RCC's have helped also. Once i realized i may just be in a dream and not in waking life, i count my fingers and count 7. I now officially knew i was lucid! But i maintained my emotions and did not let it destabilize. I then looked at my left wrist which usually has a wrist watch on it. It wasn't on it so i shut my eyes and thought about the feelings of it being there and imagined looking at it on my wrist. I then opened my eyes and there it was! My first ever summoning of an object in my first ever lucid dream. I then wanted to extend what powers i may be able to do in this lucid dream. I ditch the girl DC that i was with and three good looking DC walk by. I say hi, but they all give me the cold shoulder. Huh, my own sub-conscious giving me the cold shoulder hahahha. I then will one of them to turn around and start talking to me and the best looking one turns around and starts talking to me. There ya go, my first ever DC manipulation in the first lucid dream. I then did a few other things which are irrelevant and woke up after about what i thought was 5 minutes. I woke up and was excited from the get go!


I know none of this is a question, but i just wanted to share my first ever lucid experience and how this class has helped me achieve the DILD. So thanks Sageous!

Thanks for your answer on my last question. It really helps to have a little thingy i my pocket all the time. Even when I don't "find it" I still sometimes remember that it's there and that it means that I should be doing a RRC. Funny that it's easier for me to remember that I have something in my pocket that to simply remember to do the check.

So for lesson 2: Is it really necessary to get out of bed, or would it suffice to sit up for some time? I already wake up naturally (at least whenever I remember to tell myself to) but normally I do nothing but grab a pen and write in my dream journal. My main reason for not wanting to actually get out of bed is my light-sleeper-boyfriend who has trouble falling back to sleep if I wake him up. For the same reason I am very happy that you do not advise us to use alarms 'course I would not be able to

You are doing a wonderful job. I'm honored to be able to call you my teacher

Originally Posted by TheGrimRose

Weird because last night i had three dreams (pretty good for me) and the last of the three was my very first lucid dream!

I have to thank Sageous though because of the RCC's and new found awareness i have gotten from this class is what made me become lucid. It all started because i wanted to figure out my perfect timing to WILD. I set my alarm at 3 45 and went to bed at like 10. I find that my most vivid dreams are after about 5 and a half hours of sleep. But instead of using the alarm clock to wake me up, i was focusing on waking up before my alarm clock and use it as a failsafe just in case i don't wake up. I repeated "I am going to wake up before my alarm and remember a dream quite vividly." (i've also been working on DR). I repeated it in my mind before i fell asleep and at one point i told myself to wake up at 3 30 instead of 3 45. What do ya know, I woke up at exactly 3 34 before my alarm clock! Amazing how my mind did that just from me telling myself i can. I remembered the dream i was dreaming quite well and fell back asleep afterwards. i then woke up after a second dream and remembered that dream quite vividly also! I recorded that dream in my DJ once again and fell back asleep shortly after.

This next dream though was different. . . it was my very first lucid dream! The first half was a normal non-lucid dream until i am at some shopping center with a girl DC. I notice a car driving by that instead of having wheels, it had the sort of stone wheel things from the Flintstones! I immediately realized it because of the new found awareness i have learned from Sageous and the RCC's have helped also. Once i realized i may just be in a dream and not in waking life, i count my fingers and count 7. I now officially knew i was lucid! But i maintained my emotions and did not let it destabilize. I then looked at my left wrist which usually has a wrist watch on it. It wasn't on it so i shut my eyes and thought about the feelings of it being there and imagined looking at it on my wrist. I then opened my eyes and there it was! My first ever summoning of an object in my first ever lucid dream. I then wanted to extend what powers i may be able to do in this lucid dream. I ditch the girl DC that i was with and three good looking DC walk by. I say hi, but they all give me the cold shoulder. Huh, my own sub-conscious giving me the cold shoulder hahahha. I then will one of them to turn around and start talking to me and the best looking one turns around and starts talking to me. There ya go, my first ever DC manipulation in the first lucid dream. I then did a few other things which are irrelevant and woke up after about what i thought was 5 minutes. I woke up and was excited from the get go!


I know none of this is a question, but i just wanted to share my first ever lucid experience and how this class has helped me achieve the DILD. So thanks Sageous!

It's great how this class is helping with every aspect of lucid dreaming and not just WILDs! Congratulations on your first lucid dream

Originally Posted by hermine_hesse

I just read Lesson 2 and have a few questions, Sageous:

1. I have had a few WILDs in my life and all have occurred by accident at the onset of sleep. Do you think it is harmful to attempt a WILD at the onset of sleep in addition to the WBTB WILD?

Not at all. If you have the unusual ability (usually a result of narcolepsy) to go straight to REM upon sleeping at night, then sure, do WILD's then as well. And sure, I can't see any harm or confusion resulting from doing both. In fact, I tend to do just that myself: though my bedtime WILD attempts are more related to sleep yoga than LD'ing, the activity is similar, and I'm still reasonably sane.

2. For the WBTB, for a while I was doing a WBTB after every sleep cycle (about every two hours), by waking, writing down my dreams, then attempting an LD. This would usually mean 2-3 of waking every night. Are multiple WBTBs ok, or is it better to stick with just one?

For mental prep reasons (about which we'll talk later), it is probably better to have just one WBTB session a night, preferably at the time your dreams and/or lucidity are usually most profound. That way you can focus your conscious efforts on one, hopefully most likely, target. But again, if you can apply all the mental prep you did the day(s) before into every WBTB, with equal focus for each then sure, go for it. I do recommend concentrating on one cycle, though.

3. You mentioned selecting a specific day to WILD, would it be ok to attempt a WILD every night?

Of course..practice makes perfect! Maybe though, if you find that some days are better than others, you can ramp your efforts up a bit for that day, maybe with special goals or more time allotted.

4. Right now I am in the middle of a big life change involving moving to another state. Days where I can sleep in and have nothing to do are almost nonexistent right now, plus my sleep schedule is all over the place. Not surprisingly, my LD count has gone from 1-2 a week to nothing. Is it even possible for me to work new routines into my chaotic sleep schedule, or will WILDing success have to wait until I am sufficiently settled into a new routine?

It sounds like you're definitely going to have trouble finding the right WBTB "quality" time for successful WILD's right now. Simply because your schedule right now seems to imply that there is no place for routines, you might have to put off WBTB, as I described it, for a while. That doesn't mean you can't do the rest of the stuff, though, because things like RRC and upcoming sessions on physical effects and more mental prep will hopefully still be with you after you settle down and learn your new schedules. Assuming of course you have time to read the sessions...

Oh, and since you have had bedtime WILD's, Hermine, there's no reason why you can't just try the WILD technique (that I promise I will one day get to ) at night when you go to bed...you might find it a nice break from your hectic days.

Originally Posted by TheGrimRose

This next dream though was different. . . it was my very first lucid dream!

I know none of this is a question, but i just wanted to share my first ever lucid experience and how this class has helped me achieve the DILD. So thanks Sageous!

That's great news,TheGrimRose! Thanks for sharing!

Originally Posted by Strit

So for lesson 2: Is it really necessary to get out of bed, or would it suffice to sit up for some time? I already wake up naturally (at least whenever I remember to tell myself to) but normally I do nothing but grab a pen and write in my dream journal. My main reason for not wanting to actually get out of bed is my light-sleeper-boyfriend who has trouble falling back to sleep if I wake him up.

I do think it is necessary to get up, in order to reinforce your waking consciousness and avoid accidentally falling back to sleep. But since I understand your boyfriend's plight (I'm an incredibly light sleeper, much to the chagrin of my deep-sleeping and fairly active wife), I suppose there must be an exception to the rule if you are unable to to sneak out of bed:

So, for the sake of your boyfriend's rest: If you are sitting up and writing down your dreams, and that takes a few minutes, then maybe if you stay sitting for a few minutes after you finish jotting in your journal, and just think about the dreams -- or your next WILD attempt, you might be able to get WBTB to work for you...And you can remind your boyfriend a few times that you're making an extra effort just for him!

That was good. I have been doing a little too short a period of time lately I think. Should we attempt each time of sleeping for one night. How do you tell if it is 'good' or not?

I was going to try out DEILD before and on one night I do remember waking up several times. So, I'll try and focus on that again and see if I can realise when I awake during the night.