Thread: WILD According to Sageous Q & A

Another question I forgot to ask. At the moment in my life I'm on a pretty backwards schedule. I'm a freelance graphic designer and doing a lot of work for people living in the US, so to accommodate my sleep schedule usually revolves around going to bed about 3-4am. This obviously means that, by the time I do my WBTB it's already light outside and sadly I don't have completely blackout curtains. I think I remember reading somewhere that having daylight can be detrimental to the WBTB and becoming lucid. Is there any truth in this, does it matter?

Originally Posted by RareCola

Another question I forgot to ask. At the moment in my life I'm on a pretty backwards schedule. I'm a freelance graphic designer and doing a lot of work for people living in the US, so to accommodate my sleep schedule usually revolves around going to bed about 3-4am. This obviously means that, by the time I do my WBTB it's already light outside and sadly I don't have completely blackout curtains. I think I remember reading somewhere that having daylight can be detrimental to the WBTB and becoming lucid. Is there any truth in this, does it matter?

Light is indeed the enemy of sleep, and a genuine distraction in LD'ing, given the dreamer's proximity to physical consciousness ('scuse me: actual wakefulness).

How about investing in a decent sleep mask? That's what I do, given that my best time for LD'ing is usually late morning...I do have blackout curtains, but they're awful. Another consideration, if possible, would be to take a couple of days off and schedule your WILD attempt on the 2nd day, but I know that might be remarkably impractical.

If you get a sleep mask, you might wear it for a couple of nights to get used to it so you don't spend your whole WILD attempt thinking about it.

^^ No worries, Sivason...I should have been more receptive to your good support, especially considering how abysmal my support of your class has been (I have been lurking, for what that's worth). Don't worry also about offending...I've got a fairly thick skin, and wasn't bothered on a personal level at all. Besides, it turns out your question was most helpful because you gave me a good opportunity to say a few words about not jumping the gun and bearing with the pace of my class, which I had wanted to do anyway. So indeed your timing was most helpful, thank you!

At least you got my opinion about your question, snarky as its tone may have been!

So, first night taking the advice for the WBTB, done it completely naturally and I achieved a DILD!

It wasn't just the WBTB though, I believe I have thanks to give to the RRC and general awareness too, because initially my reality check failed and I was beginning to assume it was real life but general awareness lead me to believe otherwise, after forcing my mind to think about RRC and keeping a high state of awareness, I realised it was a dream and finally a noseplug reality check succeeded.

It wasn't the best of lucid dreams, I was still somewhat sceptical I was dreaming after so many failed reality checks so I couldn't really will myself to do anything in fear that it may actually be real life, despite knowing that it must be a dream. After this I quickly lost the dream when I was testing the boundaries of my world. The point is though, it seems the WBTB worked well, as well as the RRC and awareness!

EDIT: Just made a dream journal entry about it with more detail here.

^^ That's good news, RareCola! Not giant steps, maybe, but at least you could see the potential of self-awareness and the RRC... Now you can remind yourself thatnext time it'll be even better!

I just read Lesson 2 and have a few questions, Sageous:

1. I have had a few WILDs in my life and all have occurred by accident at the onset of sleep. Do you think it is harmful to attempt a WILD at the onset of sleep in addition to the WBTB WILD?

2. For the WBTB, for a while I was doing a WBTB after every sleep cycle (about every two hours), by waking, writing down my dreams, then attempting an LD. This would usually mean 2-3 of waking every night. Are multiple WBTBs ok, or is it better to stick with just one?

3. You mentioned selecting a specific day to WILD, would it be ok to attempt a WILD every night?

4. Right now I am in the middle of a big life change involving moving to another state. Days where I can sleep in and have nothing to do are almost nonexistent right now, plus my sleep schedule is all over the place. Not surprisingly, my LD count has gone from 1-2 a week to nothing. Is it even possible for me to work new routines into my chaotic sleep schedule, or will WILDing success have to wait until I am sufficiently settled into a new routine?

Originally Posted by hermine_hesse

I just read Lesson 2 and have a few questions, Sageous:

1. I have had a few WILDs in my life and all have occurred by accident at the onset of sleep. Do you think it is harmful to attempt a WILD at the onset of sleep in addition to the WBTB WILD?

Not at all. If you have the unusual ability (usually a result of narcolepsy) to go straight to REM upon sleeping at night, then sure, do WILD's then as well. And sure, I can't see any harm or confusion resulting from doing both. In fact, I tend to do just that myself: though my bedtime WILD attempts are more related to sleep yoga than LD'ing, the activity is similar, and I'm still reasonably sane.

2. For the WBTB, for a while I was doing a WBTB after every sleep cycle (about every two hours), by waking, writing down my dreams, then attempting an LD. This would usually mean 2-3 of waking every night. Are multiple WBTBs ok, or is it better to stick with just one?

For mental prep reasons (about which we'll talk later), it is probably better to have just one WBTB session a night, preferably at the time your dreams and/or lucidity are usually most profound. That way you can focus your conscious efforts on one, hopefully most likely, target. But again, if you can apply all the mental prep you did the day(s) before into every WBTB, with equal focus for each then sure, go for it. I do recommend concentrating on one cycle, though.

3. You mentioned selecting a specific day to WILD, would it be ok to attempt a WILD every night?

Of course..practice makes perfect! Maybe though, if you find that some days are better than others, you can ramp your efforts up a bit for that day, maybe with special goals or more time allotted.

4. Right now I am in the middle of a big life change involving moving to another state. Days where I can sleep in and have nothing to do are almost nonexistent right now, plus my sleep schedule is all over the place. Not surprisingly, my LD count has gone from 1-2 a week to nothing. Is it even possible for me to work new routines into my chaotic sleep schedule, or will WILDing success have to wait until I am sufficiently settled into a new routine?

It sounds like you're definitely going to have trouble finding the right WBTB "quality" time for successful WILD's right now. Simply because your schedule right now seems to imply that there is no place for routines, you might have to put off WBTB, as I described it, for a while. That doesn't mean you can't do the rest of the stuff, though, because things like RRC and upcoming sessions on physical effects and more mental prep will hopefully still be with you after you settle down and learn your new schedules. Assuming of course you have time to read the sessions...

Oh, and since you have had bedtime WILD's, Hermine, there's no reason why you can't just try the WILD technique (that I promise I will one day get to ) at night when you go to bed...you might find it a nice break from your hectic days.

Thanks, Sageous! The instruction I'm getting both from your and Sivason's classes is really invaluable. Up until now, I feel like I've been stumbling forward in the dark...

Originally Posted by Sageous

Not at all. If you have the unusual ability (usually a result of narcolepsy) to go straight to REM upon sleeping at night, then sure, do WILD's then as well. And sure, I can't see any harm or confusion resulting from doing both. In fact, I tend to do just that myself: though my bedtime WILD attempts are more related to sleep yoga than LD'ing, the activity is similar, and I'm still reasonably sane.

Well, I definitely don't have narcolepsy. I am a natural LDer (though only a few times a year without any effort) and had extreme cases of Isolated Sleep Paralysis (the disorder, not regular sleep paralysis) in the past, so maybe that makes me a bit unusual with REM cycles.

Originally Posted by Sageous

It sounds like you're definitely going to have trouble finding the right WBTB "quality" time for successful WILD's right now. Simply because your schedule right now seems to imply that there is no place for routines, you might have to put off WBTB, as I described it, for a while. That doesn't mean you can't do the rest of the stuff, though, because things like RRC and upcoming sessions on physical effects and more mental prep will hopefully still be with you after you settle down and learn your new schedules. Assuming of course you have time to read the sessions...

Oh, and since you have had bedtime WILD's, Hermine, there's no reason why you can't just try the WILD technique (that I promise I will one day get to ) at night when you go to bed...you might find it a nice break from your hectic days.

I do have time for DV, since I use this as my relaxation/downtime. So, I will keep following the sessions and continuing with the practices as best I can, but will just keep in mind not to feel discouraged if I don't have results until after I'm settled. I have been continuing with the RRC's. It has definitely been interesting practicing RRCs during things like an nine hour drive! I actually think this practice is helping to keep me grounded in calm rather than feeling unsettled.

Weird because last night i had three dreams (pretty good for me) and the last of the three was my very first lucid dream!

I have to thank Sageous though because of the RCC's and new found awareness i have gotten from this class is what made me become lucid. It all started because i wanted to figure out my perfect timing to WILD. I set my alarm at 3 45 and went to bed at like 10. I find that my most vivid dreams are after about 5 and a half hours of sleep. But instead of using the alarm clock to wake me up, i was focusing on waking up before my alarm clock and use it as a failsafe just in case i don't wake up. I repeated "I am going to wake up before my alarm and remember a dream quite vividly." (i've also been working on DR). I repeated it in my mind before i fell asleep and at one point i told myself to wake up at 3 30 instead of 3 45. What do ya know, I woke up at exactly 3 34 before my alarm clock! Amazing how my mind did that just from me telling myself i can. I remembered the dream i was dreaming quite well and fell back asleep afterwards. i then woke up after a second dream and remembered that dream quite vividly also! I recorded that dream in my DJ once again and fell back asleep shortly after.

This next dream though was different. . . it was my very first lucid dream! The first half was a normal non-lucid dream until i am at some shopping center with a girl DC. I notice a car driving by that instead of having wheels, it had the sort of stone wheel things from the Flintstones! I immediately realized it because of the new found awareness i have learned from Sageous and the RCC's have helped also. Once i realized i may just be in a dream and not in waking life, i count my fingers and count 7. I now officially knew i was lucid! But i maintained my emotions and did not let it destabilize. I then looked at my left wrist which usually has a wrist watch on it. It wasn't on it so i shut my eyes and thought about the feelings of it being there and imagined looking at it on my wrist. I then opened my eyes and there it was! My first ever summoning of an object in my first ever lucid dream. I then wanted to extend what powers i may be able to do in this lucid dream. I ditch the girl DC that i was with and three good looking DC walk by. I say hi, but they all give me the cold shoulder. Huh, my own sub-conscious giving me the cold shoulder hahahha. I then will one of them to turn around and start talking to me and the best looking one turns around and starts talking to me. There ya go, my first ever DC manipulation in the first lucid dream. I then did a few other things which are irrelevant and woke up after about what i thought was 5 minutes. I woke up and was excited from the get go!


I know none of this is a question, but i just wanted to share my first ever lucid experience and how this class has helped me achieve the DILD. So thanks Sageous!

Originally Posted by TheGrimRose

Weird because last night i had three dreams (pretty good for me) and the last of the three was my very first lucid dream!

I have to thank Sageous though because of the RCC's and new found awareness i have gotten from this class is what made me become lucid. It all started because i wanted to figure out my perfect timing to WILD. I set my alarm at 3 45 and went to bed at like 10. I find that my most vivid dreams are after about 5 and a half hours of sleep. But instead of using the alarm clock to wake me up, i was focusing on waking up before my alarm clock and use it as a failsafe just in case i don't wake up. I repeated "I am going to wake up before my alarm and remember a dream quite vividly." (i've also been working on DR). I repeated it in my mind before i fell asleep and at one point i told myself to wake up at 3 30 instead of 3 45. What do ya know, I woke up at exactly 3 34 before my alarm clock! Amazing how my mind did that just from me telling myself i can. I remembered the dream i was dreaming quite well and fell back asleep afterwards. i then woke up after a second dream and remembered that dream quite vividly also! I recorded that dream in my DJ once again and fell back asleep shortly after.

This next dream though was different. . . it was my very first lucid dream! The first half was a normal non-lucid dream until i am at some shopping center with a girl DC. I notice a car driving by that instead of having wheels, it had the sort of stone wheel things from the Flintstones! I immediately realized it because of the new found awareness i have learned from Sageous and the RCC's have helped also. Once i realized i may just be in a dream and not in waking life, i count my fingers and count 7. I now officially knew i was lucid! But i maintained my emotions and did not let it destabilize. I then looked at my left wrist which usually has a wrist watch on it. It wasn't on it so i shut my eyes and thought about the feelings of it being there and imagined looking at it on my wrist. I then opened my eyes and there it was! My first ever summoning of an object in my first ever lucid dream. I then wanted to extend what powers i may be able to do in this lucid dream. I ditch the girl DC that i was with and three good looking DC walk by. I say hi, but they all give me the cold shoulder. Huh, my own sub-conscious giving me the cold shoulder hahahha. I then will one of them to turn around and start talking to me and the best looking one turns around and starts talking to me. There ya go, my first ever DC manipulation in the first lucid dream. I then did a few other things which are irrelevant and woke up after about what i thought was 5 minutes. I woke up and was excited from the get go!


I know none of this is a question, but i just wanted to share my first ever lucid experience and how this class has helped me achieve the DILD. So thanks Sageous!

It's great how this class is helping with every aspect of lucid dreaming and not just WILDs! Congratulations on your first lucid dream

Originally Posted by TheGrimRose

This next dream though was different. . . it was my very first lucid dream!

I know none of this is a question, but i just wanted to share my first ever lucid experience and how this class has helped me achieve the DILD. So thanks Sageous!

That's great news,TheGrimRose! Thanks for sharing!

Thanks for your answer on my last question. It really helps to have a little thingy i my pocket all the time. Even when I don't "find it" I still sometimes remember that it's there and that it means that I should be doing a RRC. Funny that it's easier for me to remember that I have something in my pocket that to simply remember to do the check.

So for lesson 2: Is it really necessary to get out of bed, or would it suffice to sit up for some time? I already wake up naturally (at least whenever I remember to tell myself to) but normally I do nothing but grab a pen and write in my dream journal. My main reason for not wanting to actually get out of bed is my light-sleeper-boyfriend who has trouble falling back to sleep if I wake him up. For the same reason I am very happy that you do not advise us to use alarms 'course I would not be able to

You are doing a wonderful job. I'm honored to be able to call you my teacher

Originally Posted by Strit

So for lesson 2: Is it really necessary to get out of bed, or would it suffice to sit up for some time? I already wake up naturally (at least whenever I remember to tell myself to) but normally I do nothing but grab a pen and write in my dream journal. My main reason for not wanting to actually get out of bed is my light-sleeper-boyfriend who has trouble falling back to sleep if I wake him up.

I do think it is necessary to get up, in order to reinforce your waking consciousness and avoid accidentally falling back to sleep. But since I understand your boyfriend's plight (I'm an incredibly light sleeper, much to the chagrin of my deep-sleeping and fairly active wife), I suppose there must be an exception to the rule if you are unable to to sneak out of bed:

So, for the sake of your boyfriend's rest: If you are sitting up and writing down your dreams, and that takes a few minutes, then maybe if you stay sitting for a few minutes after you finish jotting in your journal, and just think about the dreams -- or your next WILD attempt, you might be able to get WBTB to work for you...And you can remind your boyfriend a few times that you're making an extra effort just for him!

That was good. I have been doing a little too short a period of time lately I think. Should we attempt each time of sleeping for one night. How do you tell if it is 'good' or not?

I was going to try out DEILD before and on one night I do remember waking up several times. So, I'll try and focus on that again and see if I can realise when I awake during the night.

Originally Posted by enak101

That was good. I have been doing a little too short a period of time lately I think. Should we attempt each time of sleeping for one night. How do you tell if it is 'good' or not?

I'm not sure I understand, but I think you don't need to go as far as testing time periods or time spans. For our purposes here, you need not look deeper than thinking about what time of night/day seems to you to be best for being aware of dreaming, and then try to have an extra hour or two before and after that time, as a sort of cushion...I hope that made sense!

I was going to try out DEILD before and on one night I do remember waking up several times. So, I'll try and focus on that again and see if I can realise when I awake during the night.

That sounds like a good plan, because DEILD gives you a good sense of when you are at peak consciousness/dreaming moment.

For some reason I never woke up last night I'm wondering if I should use mantras or just rely on my own body to wake me up at the best times for WBTB?

Originally Posted by Sydney

For some reason I never woke up last night I'm wondering if I should use mantras or just rely on my own body to wake me up at the best times for WBTB?

If you're looking for the best times for WBTB, which in this case you are, then yes, just rely on your body to cut you some slack and "wake" you. Try again for a couple more nights.

Setting up and using mantras (which we will be discussing shortly) has its purpose, but in this case doing so could create an "artificial" wake time that won't come in too handy come dream time. So for now just do your best for a couple more nights to see if and when you tend to wake up at night.

If that turns out to be impossible -- there are certainly people who "sleep right through," meaning that their reticular systems and memories completely ignored those brief moments of waking during sleep -- then you might need to settle for noting the times you tend to first wake ip in the morning, and hope that you can get back to sleep after then...

Originally Posted by Sageous

If you're looking for the best times for WBTB, which in this case you are, then yes, just rely on your body to cut you some slack and "wake" you. Try again for a couple more nights.

Setting up and using mantras (which we will be discussing shortly) has its purpose, but in this case doing so could create an "artificial" wake time that won't come in too handy come dream time. So for now just do your best for a couple more nights to see if and when you tend to wake up at night.

If that turns out to be impossible -- there are certainly people who "sleep right through," meaning that their reticular systems and memories completely ignored those brief moments of waking during sleep -- then you might need to settle for noting the times you tend to first wake ip in the morning, and hope that you can get back to sleep after then...

Ah, okay. What if my body wakes me up to use the restroom? Could that be counted as when I "wake up naturally" during the night? Like do you think that could be one of the reliable times for WBTB?
Or is it just totally random?

Originally Posted by Sydney

Ah, okay. What if my body wakes me up to use the restroom? Could that be counted as when I "wake up naturally" during the night? Like do you think that could be one of the reliable times for WBTB?
Or is it just totally random?

Not totally random...

If your body wakes you up for any reason, you could count that as natural. So yeah, an alert for a trip to the restroom would work fine. In fact, it works a little finer than you might think, as those kinds of wakings, unless there's a real emergency unfolding, tend to occur just after REM cycles anyway, which is optimal for WBTB. Also, as nature tends to "call" later in the night (if you're still young and healthy, of course), that recent REM might be a late cycle, after those few needed hours of sleep, which is also good.

So, since it's not so totally random if you look at it just right, waking to use the restroom is a doable time for WBTB.

You should still keep an eye out for other times, perhaps later in the morning, when you wake up naturally. They're there, if tough to notice!

I've become lucid on the last 3 consecutive nights and I can't help but think it has something to do with the RRCs I seem to take to them better than other ways of state testing.

Well, last night I remember waking up about 4 hours after I fell asleep, and then again after about 5 hours and 30 minutes.. and then I think again after 6 hours and 30 minutes.
So should I just keep trying and see which awakening comes most naturally? (I mean like, the one I wake up most for)

I think you should let it happen naturally and see which one yields the most vivid dream recall and also lets you return to sleep easily.
Now it's approaching summer, 4 o'clock is starting to get quite light and the dawn chorus is pretty loud. I almost felt like going for a walk when I woke for WBTB last night .

Well, I woke up once last night after about 6 or 7 hours of sleep. I ended up just going back to sleep but I'm either going to WBTB or DEILD. Not sure yet.

I had another interesting experience with RRC last night. I did a RRC while laying in bed immediately before falling asleep (though I'm not sure why it had never occurred to me to RRC at this time before). I lightly considered where I was 5mins ago, where I am, and where I will be in 5min. I realized in 5min, I would be in a dream. I suddenly got the sense of being fully aware of...well, my being and also that I was stationary and my realities where swirling and forming around me.

Today as I did my RRCs, I attempted to conjure the same feeling I experienced last night. I did this once while walking briskly and felt for a moment that I was not moving forward, but that everything was moving past me. It felt disorienting and much like when you are sitting in a stationary train, another train going the opposite way next to starts to move and for a moment you are not sure if the train you are on is the one that's moving (not sure if that makes sense...). I've seen someone mention the way they travel in LDs is to roll the landscape past them, rather than walking. So, I can see how my experience can lend itself directly to an LD skill.

As for Lesson 2, in the past when I did WBTB's, I always used an alarm and thought it would be very difficult without one. Last night, I actually woke up without and alarm what seemed like every sleep cycle! I woke up 2hrs after first falling asleep, 1hour after that, then again 1.5 hours after that.

Originally Posted by hermine_hesse

I had another interesting experience with RRC last night. I did a RRC while laying in bed immediately before falling asleep (though I'm not sure why it had never occurred to me to RRC at this time before). I lightly considered where I was 5mins ago, where I am, and where I will be in 5min. I realized in 5min, I would be in a dream. I suddenly got the sense of being fully aware of...well, my being and also that I was stationary and my realities where swirling and forming around me.

Today as I did my RRCs, I attempted to conjure the same feeling I experienced last night. I did this once while walking briskly and felt for a moment that I was not moving forward, but that everything was moving past me. It felt disorienting and much like when you are sitting in a stationary train, another train going the opposite way next to starts to move and for a moment you are not sure if the train you are on is the one that's moving (not sure if that makes sense...). I've seen someone mention the way they travel in LDs is to roll the landscape past them, rather than walking. So, I can see how my experience can lend itself directly to an LD skill.

... And that, in a nutshell, is what the RRC is all about; nice work, Hermine!

As for Lesson 2, in the past when I did WBTB's, I always used an alarm and thought it would be very difficult without one. Last night, I actually woke up without and alarm what seemed like every sleep cycle! I woke up 2hrs after first falling asleep, 1hour after that, then again 1.5 hours after that.

See? Just put your mind to it, or at least get your mind interested in it, and some things just work!