WILD According to Sageous Q & A

Thanks, Sageous! The instruction I'm getting both from your and Sivason's classes is really invaluable. Up until now, I feel like I've been stumbling forward in the dark...

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Originally Posted by Sageous

Not at all. If you have the unusual ability (usually a result of narcolepsy) to go straight to REM upon sleeping at night, then sure, do WILD's then as well. And sure, I can't see any harm or confusion resulting from doing both. In fact, I tend to do just that myself: though my bedtime WILD attempts are more related to sleep yoga than LD'ing, the activity is similar, and I'm still reasonably sane.

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Well, I definitely don't have narcolepsy. I am a natural LDer (though only a few times a year without any effort) and had extreme cases of Isolated Sleep Paralysis (the disorder, not regular sleep paralysis) in the past, so maybe that makes me a bit unusual with REM cycles.

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Originally Posted by Sageous

It sounds like you're definitely going to have trouble finding the right WBTB "quality" time for successful WILD's right now. Simply because your schedule right now seems to imply that there is no place for routines, you might have to put off WBTB, as I described it, for a while. That doesn't mean you can't do the rest of the stuff, though, because things like RRC and upcoming sessions on physical effects and more mental prep will hopefully still be with you after you settle down and learn your new schedules. Assuming of course you have time to read the sessions...

Oh, and since you have had bedtime WILD's, Hermine, there's no reason why you can't just try the WILD technique (that I promise I will one day get to ;)) at night when you go to bed...you might find it a nice break from your hectic days.

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I do have time for DV, since I use this as my relaxation/downtime. So, I will keep following the sessions and continuing with the practices as best I can, but will just keep in mind not to feel discouraged if I don't have results until after I'm settled. I have been continuing with the RRC's. It has definitely been interesting practicing RRCs during things like an nine hour drive! I actually think this practice is helping to keep me grounded in calm rather than feeling unsettled.

For some reason I never woke up last night :P I'm wondering if I should use mantras or just rely on my own body to wake me up at the best times for WBTB?

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Originally Posted by enak101

That was good. I have been doing a little too short a period of time lately I think. Should we attempt each time of sleeping for one night. How do you tell if it is 'good' or not?

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I'm not sure I understand, but I think you don't need to go as far as testing time periods or time spans. For our purposes here, you need not look deeper than thinking about what time of night/day seems to you to be best for being aware of dreaming, and then try to have an extra hour or two before and after that time, as a sort of cushion...I hope that made sense!

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I was going to try out DEILD before and on one night I do remember waking up several times. So, I'll try and focus on that again and see if I can realise when I awake during the night.

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That sounds like a good plan, because DEILD gives you a good sense of when you are at peak consciousness/dreaming moment.

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Originally Posted by Sydney

For some reason I never woke up last night :P I'm wondering if I should use mantras or just rely on my own body to wake me up at the best times for WBTB?

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If you're looking for the best times for WBTB, which in this case you are, then yes, just rely on your body to cut you some slack and "wake" you. Try again for a couple more nights.

Setting up and using mantras (which we will be discussing shortly) has its purpose, but in this case doing so could create an "artificial" wake time that won't come in too handy come dream time. So for now just do your best for a couple more nights to see if and when you tend to wake up at night.

If that turns out to be impossible -- there are certainly people who "sleep right through," meaning that their reticular systems and memories completely ignored those brief moments of waking during sleep -- then you might need to settle for noting the times you tend to first wake ip in the morning, and hope that you can get back to sleep after then...

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Originally Posted by Sageous

If you're looking for the best times for WBTB, which in this case you are, then yes, just rely on your body to cut you some slack and "wake" you. Try again for a couple more nights.

Setting up and using mantras (which we will be discussing shortly) has its purpose, but in this case doing so could create an "artificial" wake time that won't come in too handy come dream time. So for now just do your best for a couple more nights to see if and when you tend to wake up at night.

If that turns out to be impossible -- there are certainly people who "sleep right through," meaning that their reticular systems and memories completely ignored those brief moments of waking during sleep -- then you might need to settle for noting the times you tend to first wake ip in the morning, and hope that you can get back to sleep after then...

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Ah, okay. What if my body wakes me up to use the restroom? Could that be counted as when I "wake up naturally" during the night? Like do you think that could be one of the reliable times for WBTB?
Or is it just totally random?

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Originally Posted by Sydney

Ah, okay. What if my body wakes me up to use the restroom? Could that be counted as when I "wake up naturally" during the night? Like do you think that could be one of the reliable times for WBTB?
Or is it just totally random?

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Not totally random...

If your body wakes you up for any reason, you could count that as natural. So yeah, an alert for a trip to the restroom would work fine. In fact, it works a little finer than you might think, as those kinds of wakings, unless there's a real emergency unfolding, tend to occur just after REM cycles anyway, which is optimal for WBTB. Also, as nature tends to "call" later in the night (if you're still young and healthy, of course), that recent REM might be a late cycle, after those few needed hours of sleep, which is also good.

So, since it's not so totally random if you look at it just right, waking to use the restroom is a doable time for WBTB.

You should still keep an eye out for other times, perhaps later in the morning, when you wake up naturally. They're there, if tough to notice!

I've become lucid on the last 3 consecutive nights and I can't help but think it has something to do with the RRCs :) I seem to take to them better than other ways of state testing.

Well, last night I remember waking up about 4 hours after I fell asleep, and then again after about 5 hours and 30 minutes.. and then I think again after 6 hours and 30 minutes.
So should I just keep trying and see which awakening comes most naturally? (I mean like, the one I wake up most for)

I think you should let it happen naturally and see which one yields the most vivid dream recall and also lets you return to sleep easily.
Now it's approaching summer, 4 o'clock is starting to get quite light and the dawn chorus is pretty loud. I almost felt like going for a walk when I woke for WBTB last night :lol:.

Well, I woke up once last night after about 6 or 7 hours of sleep. I ended up just going back to sleep but I'm either going to WBTB or DEILD. Not sure yet.

I had another interesting experience with RRC last night. I did a RRC while laying in bed immediately before falling asleep (though I'm not sure why it had never occurred to me to RRC at this time before). I lightly considered where I was 5mins ago, where I am, and where I will be in 5min. I realized in 5min, I would be in a dream. I suddenly got the sense of being fully aware of...well, my being and also that I was stationary and my realities where swirling and forming around me.

Today as I did my RRCs, I attempted to conjure the same feeling I experienced last night. I did this once while walking briskly and felt for a moment that I was not moving forward, but that everything was moving past me. It felt disorienting and much like when you are sitting in a stationary train, another train going the opposite way next to starts to move and for a moment you are not sure if the train you are on is the one that's moving (not sure if that makes sense...). I've seen someone mention the way they travel in LDs is to roll the landscape past them, rather than walking. So, I can see how my experience can lend itself directly to an LD skill.

As for Lesson 2, in the past when I did WBTB's, I always used an alarm and thought it would be very difficult without one. Last night, I actually woke up without and alarm what seemed like every sleep cycle! I woke up 2hrs after first falling asleep, 1hour after that, then again 1.5 hours after that.

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Originally Posted by hermine_hesse

I had another interesting experience with RRC last night. I did a RRC while laying in bed immediately before falling asleep (though I'm not sure why it had never occurred to me to RRC at this time before). I lightly considered where I was 5mins ago, where I am, and where I will be in 5min. I realized in 5min, I would be in a dream. I suddenly got the sense of being fully aware of...well, my being and also that I was stationary and my realities where swirling and forming around me.

Today as I did my RRCs, I attempted to conjure the same feeling I experienced last night. I did this once while walking briskly and felt for a moment that I was not moving forward, but that everything was moving past me. It felt disorienting and much like when you are sitting in a stationary train, another train going the opposite way next to starts to move and for a moment you are not sure if the train you are on is the one that's moving (not sure if that makes sense...). I've seen someone mention the way they travel in LDs is to roll the landscape past them, rather than walking. So, I can see how my experience can lend itself directly to an LD skill.

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... And that, in a nutshell, is what the RRC is all about; nice work, Hermine!

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As for Lesson 2, in the past when I did WBTB's, I always used an alarm and thought it would be very difficult without one. Last night, I actually woke up without and alarm what seemed like every sleep cycle! I woke up 2hrs after first falling asleep, 1hour after that, then again 1.5 hours after that.

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See? Just put your mind to it, or at least get your mind interested in it, and some things just work!

That's funny, I did nearly the same thing as Hermine Hesse, except as I lay in bed ready to fall asleep, I tried to go through as many moments of the day as I could remember and imagined them all as a dream. I had the fourth LD in four nights. :D Really, this RRC business has invigorated my dreaming practice alone, I can't wait to get to actual WILD :lol:

I'm sure others said this already, but i want to thank you Sageous for this Reverse RC :)

Since i'm doing it (and ADSA) i got lucid more easier in my dreams. Even while it only helped with DILD so far, that's also a really good thing ^^
My awareness is higher than it was before, that's for sure :)

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Originally Posted by Ctharlhie

I can't wait to get to actual WILD :lol:

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It's coming, it's coming!

Funny thing though, is that you're doing the real work right now...get all this stuff down and the actual WILD will be little more than lying down and waiting...

But more on that later. :cheeky:

I keep forgetting to do the RRC :(
I guess I just need to discipline myself!

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Originally Posted by Ctharlhie

I can't wait to get to actual WILD :lol:

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I can't either! :D

Actual WILD's are coming soon, Sydney...just remember all this stuff were slogging through now will make them easier to do, and more likely to work! :)

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Originally Posted by Sydney

I keep forgetting to do the RRC :(
I guess I just need to discipline myself!

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Me too. :/

^^ Discipline, or just some simple reminder, like a rubber band on your wrist or maybe an object in your pocket... Every time you feel the object, do your RRC... Just a thought...

I don't know whether it's the new WBTB schedule or the RRCs or something else all together, but recently I've been going to bed and waking up maybe an hour or two later and remembering dreams even then. Pretty big milestone for me as a few weeks ago I couldn't remember any dreams until after my alarmed WBTB. My dreams overall also seem a lot more "detailed", in the sense that I'm feeling a lot more physical sensations like exhaustion, inability to breathe underwater, smell, etc.

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Originally Posted by RareCola

I don't know whether it's the new WBTB schedule or the RRCs or something else all together, but recently I've been going to bed and waking up maybe an hour or two later and remembering dreams even then. Pretty big milestone for me as a few weeks ago I couldn't remember any dreams until after my alarmed WBTB. My dreams overall also seem a lot more "detailed", in the sense that I'm feeling a lot more physical sensations like exhaustion, inability to breathe underwater, smell, etc.

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Maybe it is the RRC's, and the WBTB schedule, and, above all, your focused attention on all this. Ultimately successful LD'ing is a result of nothing more than simply paying attention -- and all the things we're doing here, even though they seem to have nothing to do with WILD, are driving us toward doing just that.

But it does go away quickly, so be sure to keep up the RRC's and, if possible, the overall curiosity, expectation, attention, that you're currently paying to your dreams and your self-awareness.

Nice work, RareCola!

Well, i took the time to read the Timing thread finally :) I agree with all points in it, WILD seems to work best for me after WBTB as well...

Althrough i wanted to mention that i succeeded with WILD twice immediately after going to sleep for the first time during the night. Althrough the dreams during this time were white-black and really blurry, they also had no sounds... They felt somewhat like the "prototype" of lucid dreams....
All i want to say with this is that it's really not worth it to try WILD during these times, i can back that up with these experiences :S

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Originally Posted by littlezoe

Well, i took the time to read the Timing thread finally :) I agree with all points in it, WILD seems to work best for me after WBTB as well...

Althrough i wanted to mention that i succeeded with WILD twice immediately after going to sleep for the first time during the night. Althrough the dreams during this time were white-black and really blurry, they also had no sounds... They felt somewhat like the "prototype" of lucid dreams....
All i want to say with this is that it's really not worth it to try WILD during these times, i can back that up with these experiences :S

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It could be, Littlezoe, that you didn't totally succeed at WILD during those two attempts -- what you described sounds to me like hypnagogic imagery, which is basically unformed dreamlets that occur as you are drifting between wake and sleep (I'll actually be mentioning this on Tuesday, so your timing is good), and in your state of heightened awareness you were able to take deeper note of them. I guess, also, that hypnagogic imagery could easily be defined as prototype lucids, if you're carrying some waking awareness with you -- and you were. Of course I could be wrong, so if you're sure they were LD's then just ignore me... you, after all, were there!

Thanks for sharing -- I think it's important, timing-wise, to not bother with WILDs at bedtime; and I also like it very much when someone other than me notes just that! :)

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Originally Posted by Sageous

It could be, Littlezoe, that you didn't totally succeed at WILD during those two attempts -- what you described sounds to me like hypnagogic imagery, which is basically unformed dreamlets that occur as you are drifting between wake and sleep (I'll actually be mentioning this on Tuesday, so your timing is good), and in your state of heightened awareness you were able to take deeper note of them. I guess, also, that hypnagogic imagery could easily be defined as prototype lucids, if you're carrying some waking awareness with you -- and you were. Of course I could be wrong, so if you're sure they were LD's then just ignore me... you, after all, were there!

Thanks for sharing -- I think it's important, timing-wise, to not bother with WILDs at bedtime; and I also like it very much when someone other than me notes just that! :)

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I'm certainly sure that they were dreams, i know the difference between them and hypnagogic imagery :)
I could move around freely and even fly a little, but it was just soo depressive and lifeless... not like the LDs that i usually have and it didn't even last long either times. At first i thought that maybe i got into a NREM dream and that's why it was so dull... but i'm not sure if that's possible with WILD :)

^^ Okay, then! As I said, you were there, so you would know better than me!

I guess I jumped to the hypnagogic imagery conclusion because it tied in nicely with Tuesday's session; selfish of me to presume, sorry!

Now that you mention it, what you describe was likely an NREM experience. Which is not a bad thing, BTW: NREM (aka delta sleep, for when I forget later and call it that) dreams are definitely accessible via a version of WILD, and in my opinion well worth exploring...in fact, the Tibetan sleep yogis believe that the deepest truths are found in NREM, and not REM.

So if you master WILD, it'll work just as well for you in NREM...and then it'll make sense to WILD at bedtime! But for our "standard" LD'ing purposes now I think you're correct in saying bedtime is not the right time for WILD.