Thread: WILD According to Sageous Q & A

Originally Posted by Sageous

It is interesting, isn't it? Nice to see that the RRC is working well for you, and indeed seems to be putting your self-awareness into a very good place. Just be sure you keep doing the RRC's anyway, as things tend to fade, or, worse, become ignored habit...

Oh, of course. I read your advice earlier in the thread about attaching the RRC onto your normal RCs. It's a nice extension to "solidify" your place in reality after initially questioning your reality. I'd assume this would help in dreams too, once reality checking in a dream and becoming lucid, then reverse reality checking to truly understand what it means to be in a dream.

Originally Posted by RareCola

Oh, of course. I read your advice earlier in the thread about attaching the RRC onto your normal RCs. It's a nice extension to "solidify" your place in reality after initially questioning your reality. I'd assume this would help in dreams too, once reality checking in a dream and becoming lucid, then reverse reality checking to truly understand what it means to be in a dream.

You assumed right; nice observation as well, thanks!

Originally Posted by Sageous

Sydney: I highly recommend that you try to be patient and follow the course. It will answer all of your questions in due time, and tell you things you hadn't thought to ask; please give it a chance. For instance, WILD's can take a very long time to finish -- sometimes I'm "still" for well over an hour before I get in or give up. An important detail like that will definitely be talked about, along with tips on how to stay focused if things go long. I understand that you're excited and want to get at it, but this is a very difficult technique, especially when done incorrectly. Again, please be patient.

Bottom line/tl;dr: I really want to address everything in an order that works best for all of us, and it is simply not time to advise on your WILD attempts yet. When WILD time comes, and it will, I'll address all I can, with interest. I hope you understand. I also hope you are able to be patient and put off any attempts -- even if you are sure you know how to WILD -- until we get to the "attempt" part. You likely will not regret it.

Thanks for your patience!

I'm sorry Sageous. I shouldn't have gotten ahead of myself - I should have been patient. Thanks for that post - it give me a "reality check" that I should be learning the basics before getting into the actual attempt. Thanks again, and I can't wait for the rest of the course!

On my recent experiences and meditation,
My awareness seems more supple, that is, plastic, something I can mold based on the situation, it seems like it is more my own choice how I react to situations that occur in my day-to-day life. When I am overcome by a particular motion, there still remains some element that is external, observant and aware.
This seems to arise from my efforts to remain aware not just from sensory inputs, but importantly from remaining awareness of the fact that my experience creates the world I perceive (or rather, vice versa).

The practice of reverse RC has though revealed just why you are not a fan of meditation. I have found that the rigours and dogma of meditation have taken precedent, not just over the induction of lucidity, but even over effective meditative practise. It's not that meditation and the concomitant benefits aren't desirable (I greatly admire the buddhist lifestyle), it's just that the buddhist practice takes priority over all other concerns and is not directly fostering of lucidity in dreams. Steadily my practices have become 'all about technique again', induction rate, and even recall, has plummeted.
So through my own blunders I have arrived at the conclusion you were telling me all along.

Not sure if I'm using the RRC correctly. I think about my place in the world and how I affect others as well as how others affect me, but I never get that "aha!" moment others in this thread say they have. Maybe it just comes with time?

Originally Posted by Taffy

Not sure if I'm using the RRC correctly. I think about my place in the world and how I affect others as well as how others affect me, but I never get that "aha!" moment others in this thread say they have. Maybe it just comes with time?

Definitely comes with time. I've been practising day time awareness and dream yoga for months and only relatively recently have I 'got it'. And getting it is just the starting point, when you get it you realise exactly what you're aiming for, you also realise it's some distance off from where you are right now.
Then again I wasn't following a Sageous led class in all those prior months.

Originally Posted by Taffy

Not sure if I'm using the RRC correctly. I think about my place in the world and how I affect others as well as how others affect me, but I never get that "aha!" moment others in this thread say they have. Maybe it just comes with time?

Personally, I got it when thinking about how prominent I am in the world. Just by "being" you're doing so many things. The air around you is flowing with your movement, you're breathing and exhaling it. I imagine the air as atoms and envision it flowing as I move and how it affects me and how I affect it. You're blocking light and creating shadows with your body. And there are so many more things you can look at. Of course, though, I'm not a master at this by any stretch so it may be best to wait until Sageous replies before taking my word for it.

Originally Posted by RareCola

Personally, I got it when thinking about how prominent I am in the world. Just by "being" you're doing so many things. The air around you is flowing with your movement, you're breathing and exhaling it. I imagine the air as atoms and envision it flowing as I move and how it affects me and how I affect it. You're blocking light and creating shadows with your body. And there are so many more things you can look at. Of course, though, I'm not a master at this by any stretch so it may be best to wait until Sageous replies before taking my word for it.

It's weird because literally right before I went onto my computer to check the forums and Q and A, I performed a reverse reality check. I thought of how I affect everything around me and literally thought of the same thing you just stated, without reading it or hearing anything of the sort ever. I thought of all the air coming in and out as i breathe. I also put my hand up to the window creating a shadow i saw and thought about how that shadow changes the environment around me and I have never even realized it before. This really is crazy how I thought of the same exact thing you stated without ever reading about it or seeing it before.

Originally Posted by Taffy

Not sure if I'm using the RRC correctly. I think about my place in the world and how I affect others as well as how others affect me, but I never get that "aha!" moment others in this thread say they have. Maybe it just comes with time?

Don't be concerned about "aha" moments, Taffy; nothing singularly important or enlightening need happen to you during RRC's. If "aha" moments do happen, that's most excellent, but the RRC is meant as a simple tool to help build your self-awareness to better prepare you for WILD and LD'ing in general.

So keep them up, and simply try to periodically consider where you just were, where you're going to be soon, and where you are right now taking special care throughout to wonder about that effect you have on everything, and it on you. Don't expect anything big to happen -- that is a possible side-effect, and not the purpose of this exercise.

Originally Posted by RareCola

Personally, I got it when thinking about how prominent I am in the world. Just by "being" you're doing so many things. The air around you is flowing with your movement, you're breathing and exhaling it. I imagine the air as atoms and envision it flowing as I move and how it affects me and how I affect it. You're blocking light and creating shadows with your body. And there are so many more things you can look at. Of course, though, I'm not a master at this by any stretch so it may be best to wait until Sageous replies before taking my word for it.

A quick warning, RareCola (and any others here who share his results):

You seem to be advancing nicely in this technique, but you must be careful not to put too much importance on the "nature" portion of the RRC pause.

Sure, the nature portion of the RRC matters, especially in the early phases of your WILD's, and should be included -- it also sets the mood in a concrete way for further wonder. But if you put too much emphasis on your physical body's participation in the world around you, you run the risk of creating expectations of physical conditions within your LD which do not exist.

I'm concerned that I might have led a few of you a bit off the path. The RRC pause is essentially a moment for you to remember your interaction with reality, and that "your" includes your consciousness, your spirit, your sentience -- the very important bits of you that have little to do with nature. Indeed, the "self" in self-awareness is just that, and it is not your physical body. That's why I asked you to also wonder about your interactions with other people as well as other stuff.

Remember that there is no physical body in dreams, so there is little need to elevate its import in the RRC. Sure, it matters, and its the thing that's carrying your self from place to place and person to person, but in this context it is what your mind is telling it to do that matters more than what nature is doing to it.

Once more: to elevate the natural stuff going on around you above the activities of the conscious stuff that is going on within you could cause a real problem when you LD, simply because you might find yourself elevating the environs of the dream into something "real" over which you have no control, which could cause you to forget that that dream world is you, and in no way a product of nature... which would in turn put a real damper on your lucidity. So when you do RRC's (or RC's in general), try to find a balance that favors your mental and spiritual self over your physical body.

So what you're doing isn't wrong -- indeed, from a meditation standpoint I would imagine you're doing great! But for our purposes I hope you'll try to understand and try to get your entire self caught up in your RRC's.

I hope that made sense. If not, please ask again -- this is important.

Originally Posted by Sageous

A quick warning, RareCola (and any others here who share his results):

You seem to be advancing nicely in this technique, but you must be careful not to put too much importance on the "nature" portion of the RRC pause.

Sure, the nature portion of the RRC matters, especially in the early phases of your WILD's, and should be included -- it also sets the mood in a concrete way for further wonder. But if you put too much emphasis on your physical body's participation in the world around you, you run the risk of creating expectations of physical conditions within your LD which do not exist.

I'm concerned that I might have led a few of you a bit off the path. The RRC pause is essentially a moment for you to remember your interaction with reality, and that "your" includes your consciousness, your spirit, your sentience -- the very important bits of you that have little to do with nature. Indeed, the "self" in self-awareness is just that, and it is not your physical body. That's why I asked you to also wonder about your interactions with other people as well as other stuff.

Remember that there is no physical body in dreams, so there is little need to elevate its import in the RRC. Sure, it matters, and its the thing that's carrying your self from place to place and person to person, but in this context it is what your mind is telling it to do that matters more than what nature is doing to it.

Once more: to elevate the natural stuff going on around you above the activities of the conscious stuff that is going on within you could cause a real problem when you LD, simply because you might find yourself elevating the environs of the dream into something "real" over which you have no control, which could cause you to forget that that dream world is you, and in no way a product of nature... which would in turn put a real damper on your lucidity. So when you do RRC's (or RC's in general), try to find a balance that favors your mental and spiritual self over your physical body.

So what you're doing isn't wrong -- indeed, from a meditation standpoint I would imagine you're doing great! But for our purposes I hope you'll try to understand and try to get your entire self caught up in your RRC's.

I hope that made sense. If not, please ask again -- this is important.

Thanks for the advice! I understand what you're saying, only could you give some examples of what you do just to be sure?

Originally Posted by RareCola

Thanks for the advice! I understand what you're saying, only could you give some examples of what you do just to be sure?

Of course...in fact, I was just about to edit my last post with this thought, so I'll throw it in here first:

The RRC is not about drawing conclusions, or imagining the import of what is going on around you -- it is all about simply acknowledging that something is going on around you, at all times, and you (meaning all of your body, mind, and spirit) are involved. At all times.

Now...

What do I do? Pretty much exactly as the RRC is described in the session. But here, let me try to give you an example of what happens with me when I do a RRC:

As often as I can remember to do so (I have no set schedule, but it seems to be about once an hour, sometimes more), I simply stop whatever I'm doing and ask a version of those three questions. I don't use the words any more, but instead very quickly remind myself where I just was, where I'll be soon, and what I'm doing right now.

Then I simply wonder: I wonder about the impact all this has on me, my world immediately around me, including anyone I might be with. And vise-versa. How? I guess I try to pry open the gates of my mind, just for a few seconds, and let the world I'm living in wander freely through it, forming a reminder that I am a part of it, and it of me.

I only open the gates, though; I offer myself no explanation for what I feel or remember, and try not to imagine things that I know are not there -- this is not a state test for the power of self; it is a state test for the presence of self; it is extremely important not to add concepts or intellectualizations to the moment of the test.

Finally I gather myself and move on. These days the entire pause lasts just a few seconds, unless I'm involved in an argument with someone, or perhaps working on a trying art project or a particularly difficult bit of writing -- then I let the moment linger, perhaps for inspiration, or for the calming sensation it offers, or just so I don't have to go back to arguing or work for just a moment more.

What does all this look like physically, from someone else's point of view? Pretty much nothing at all -- I rarely even stand still during an RRC pause anymore, and only my wife really notices when I'm in the middle of one. So all I "do" is hold mentally still for a moment, eyes open or closed, standing, walking, lying down, or sitting, and just wonder.

I know it doesn't sound like much to describe but you know what? In the end an RRC shouldn't be much...that may be its whole point!


P.S. Keep in mind that this is only how I do an RRC... it does not need to be the way you do it. All that really matters is asking the questions, remembering your self, and wondering about it all...

Originally Posted by Sageous

Of course...in fact, I was just about to edit my last post with this thought, so I'll throw it in here first:

The RRC is not about drawing conclusions, or imagining the import of what is going on around you -- it is all about simply acknowledging that something is going on around you, at all times, and you (meaning all of your body, mind, and spirit) are involved. At all times.

Now...

What do I do? Pretty much exactly as the RRC is described in the session. But here, let me try to give you an example of what happens with me when I do a RRC:

As often as I can remember to do so (I have no set schedule, but it seems to be about once an hour, sometimes more), I simply stop whatever I'm doing and ask a version of those three questions. I don't use the words any more, but instead very quickly remind myself where I just was, where I'll be soon, and what I'm doing right now.

Then I simply wonder: I wonder about the impact all this has on me, my world immediately around me, including anyone I might be with. And vise-versa. How? I guess I try to pry open the gates of my mind, just for a few seconds, and let the world I'm living in wander freely through it, forming a reminder that I am a part of it, and it of me.

I only open the gates, though; I offer myself no explanation for what I feel or remember, and try not to imagine things that I know are not there -- this is not a state test for the power of self; it is a state test for the presence of self; it is extremely important not to add concepts or intellectualizations to the moment of the test.

Finally I gather myself and move on. These days the entire pause lasts just a few seconds, unless I'm involved in an argument with someone, or perhaps working on a trying art project or a particularly difficult bit of writing -- then I let the moment linger, perhaps for inspiration, or for the calming sensation it offers, or just so I don't have to go back to arguing or work for just a moment more.

What does all this look like physically, from someone else's point of view? Pretty much nothing at all -- I rarely even stand still during an RRC pause anymore, and only my wife really notices when I'm in the middle of one. So all I "do" is hold mentally still for a moment, eyes open or closed, standing, walking, lying down, or sitting, and just wonder.

I know it doesn't sound like much to describe but you know what? In the end an RRC shouldn't be much...that may be its whole point!


P.S. Keep in mind that this is only how I do an RRC... it does not need to be the way you do it. All that really matters is asking the questions, remembering your self, and wondering about it all...

Alright I think I've pretty much got it down, I especially liked the "this is not a state test for the power of self; it is a state test for the presence of self". I need to remember that. The only thing I think I'm having problems with is how my presence affects other people and how they affect me, i'll need to work on that one.

Thanks for taking your time to elaborate! Much appreciated.

Originally Posted by RareCola

Alright I think I've pretty much got it down, I especially liked the "this is not a state test for the power of self; it is a state test for the presence of self". I need to remember that. The only thing I think I'm having problems with is how my presence affects other people and how they affect me, i'll need to work on that one.

Thanks for taking your time to elaborate! Much appreciated.

That's great, and happy to help!

And for all of you: rest assured that I'm doing this for a reason, and it'll all be clear later. Thanks for keeping up the effort!

Hi Sageous & good luck with the class.

Hope you don't mind me lurking about here. I would participate only I have had to put the practicing of LD onto the back burner for the short forseeable future due to stress and bereavement issues.

Regards Robstar.

Originally Posted by RobStar

Hi Sageous & good luck with the class.

Hope you don't mind me lurking about here. I would participate only I have had to put the practicing of LD onto the back burner for the short forseeable future due to stress and bereavement issues.

Regards Robstar.

Lurk away, Robstar, and thanks for paying what attention you can during your difficult time.

Okay so basically to clear things up for me, nature should be somewhat part of a RCC but not be the main focus. It should be more about how there is an equal impact of the presence of your own triangle of life (mind, body, and spirit) that impacts everything around you and how you, yourself, is present in it. Am I right? And that is why you wonder about your impact on everything else and how the different parts of your triangle of life effect all that surrounds you. I may be wording this weird but just trying to wrap my head around this concept hahah. Hope I am not a bother to you and take up too much time.

And for my RRC, I made a phrase: I was there, will be there, and am here now (i dont actually say 'there' but replace it with the thoughts of where I was and where i'll be). I then try to open my mind up to everything that is around me and wonder about how the world is a part of me as much as I am a part of the world.

Would this be an effective RCC in your eyes. Any critiquing would be greatly appreciated. Thanks soo much once again

Originally Posted by TheGrimRose

Okay so basically to clear things up for me, nature should be somewhat part of a RCC but not be the main focus.

Yup.

It should be more about how there is an equal impact of the presence of your own triangle of life (mind, body, and spirit) that impacts everything around you and how you, yourself, is present in it. Am I right?

Yes, you are!

And that is why you wonder about your impact on everything else and how the different parts of your triangle of life effect all that surrounds you. I may be wording this weird but just trying to wrap my head around this concept.

Yup again. Careful about that word, "wonder," though: don't attach too much credence to the word itself. It should mean no more than a simple open-minded consideration of your presence in your world... literally "wonder." I know I know: now I mention that!

And for my RRC, I made a phrase: I was there, will be there, and am here now (i dont actually say 'there' but replace it with the thoughts of where I was and where i'll be). I then try to open my mind up to everything that is around me and wonder about how the world is a part of me as much as I am a part of the world.

Would this be an effective RCC in your eyes. Any critiquing would be greatly appreciated. Thanks soo much once again

That seems like a good RRC, as long as you are sure to consider all three phases (past/future, now) clearly. The rest is excellent!

Originally Posted by Sageous

Don't be concerned about "aha" moments, Taffy; nothing singularly important or enlightening need happen to you during RRC's. If "aha" moments do happen, that's most excellent, but the RRC is meant as a simple tool to help build your self-awareness to better prepare you for WILD and LD'ing in general.

So keep them up, and simply try to periodically consider where you just were, where you're going to be soon, and where you are right now taking special care throughout to wonder about that effect you have on everything, and it on you. Don't expect anything big to happen -- that is a possible side-effect, and not the purpose of this exercise.

Great, I'll keep practicing.

Just letting you all know that Session #2 - Timing, has been posted.

Before you know it, we'll actually be doing WILD's!

I always stayed up for a really short time before attempting WILD, maybe I needed to stay up longer. I'll work on waking up naturally for now, though.

I just finished reading Session #2!

Wow, thank you so much for emphasizing the importance of timing. I knew that it was important, but I never really thought much about it before, especially the technical side of it. I've been doing WBTB (+MILD) ever since, and I've always relied on an alarm to wake me up in the middle of the night since I am a very heavy sleeper. I'm fairly used to it already, however since I'm trying to learn more about WILD, I will try to change it up a bit.

And waddya know! My classes just ended today! Which means more time for practice! I will get rid of my alarms for now, keep studying my sleeping patterns, and try my best to determine the ideal time for me to wake up naturally in the middle of the night. I've also been practicing the RRC, and I find it very easy to remember to do them since I've sorta been doing ADA -- the only thing I need to learn now is the self-awareness part of it which I'm starting to understand and carry out

Yay for session 2!

I've too been using an alarm to wake me up for my WBTB, I've already been thinking about cutting it out because of how much it shocks me awake though. This basically just confirmed that for me. From what I've already discovered I think a good time for my WBTB is roughly between 5hrs and 5hrs30m after going to sleep, but I really need to figure that out. Sometimes I wake up and I'm way too tired.

As for what to do during the WBTB. I tend to get up, use the bathroom, grab a drink of water and then either chill out in bed visualising or reading a book (though not one about dreaming). Would it matter to read a book other than one that's about dreaming? I always read at bed time anyway so it's not exactly a "day time activity" for me.

Also, how about checking DreamViews, for example? It ticks the dreaming mindset by reading it, but I fear looking at a screen may be detrimental.

What about minimum time to stay up? I noticed you mentioned maximum time, but I didn't see a minimum.

I know exactly what you mean about alarm clocks 'shocking' you awake. Hell, my alarm shocks me awake in the morning, let alone during WBTB.

However, I've been unsuccessful in convincing myself to recognise my brief awakenings in the past and when I have been successful I woke constantly through the night, leading to poor sleep. I'm a very heavy sleeper.