Thread: WILD According to Sageous Q & A

Originally Posted by Sageous

Sure, for now. I'll be setting up a thread for posting, and discussing, experiences in a while, but I was holding off on doing so until after I reached the point where I specifically ask you guys to attempt a WILD (still a few weeks off). I'd really like the discussion to be focused -- or at least distantly based -- on my suggestions.

In the meantime sure, post your experiences here; seems like a good spot! Also, as already discussed, notebooks aren't necessary for this class.

Sorry if this is confusing -- I'm apparently doing things a bit differently than normally here. I hope that's okay.

Oh no, it's no problem at all! I just didn't want to post in the wrong thread or anything, thank you!

Sageous, it looks great so far. I enjoyed the read on 'reverse reality check.' I am not sure I have heard of this before. I will be adding it into my day for awhile.

Originally Posted by RareCola

I did have a question though. Now we're a few days in i'm noticing that when I do the "reverse reality check" I'm finding it hard to find new things to see how I'm impacting them and how they're impacting me. Particularly when i'm doing a similar thing to what I was when I previously done a reverse reality check. Things i've already processed begin to lose their wonder. I've remedied this in some circumstances by looking at the situation differently than before, but I see it becoming an issue further down the line in a week, two weeks, etc.

If you think about things in a big picture way it may help. Sageous mentions things swirling around. That describes things in the biggest (and smallest) nature. Think about how every heart beat is going on and causing the blood to swirl, how the universe is moving, and so on. I am not implying Sageous ment only things that swirl around, but those things are amazing and should hold your awe. Maybe try altering the scale or scope of how you do the 'reverse reality check' so that even if you are in the same place, doing the same thing you wonder about your existence on different level. Like at the moment my own stomach is rumbling, so it may form the core of what I may wonder at. Tomorrow maybe it would be my place as a human, and the day after my relation to some scientific thought. I really just took a paragraph to say nothing. Oh well. You had already mentioned looking at it different.
Sageous, if I am off base I don't mind any corrections; I am unfamiliar with the technique. Thanks for teaching!

^^ Sivason:

Thanks for the advice, but I'm afraid you were a bit off-base. I'm not looking for awe with this exercise, as awe tends to belittle the self, and therefore can potentially diminish the self-awareness I'm looking to build. Awe and wonder sound closely related, but there is a significant difference.

The wonder I'm talking about is indeed big picture, and that image of comparing your blood moving through your system to the "swirling" of the universe is a fine one, as it will cause you to wonder. But I'm really just looking for wonder in terms of considering that there's something real here, and you are a part of it. Period. To me it is very important, once in the dream, to include your self in awareness, since in the dream it's all you.

Also, I should have been more clear about one thing: that swirling reality is the reality directly around you; for this exercise you really don't need to look much further than your own environs -- there's enough going on in them as it is, I think. Plus keep in mind that in a dream the entire universe is simply your immediate environs -- start thinking there's more during the dream and, without practice, you run the risk of losing lucidity. With practice, of course, expanding your universe with a creative thought during an LD is most excellent! (Of course that has nothing to do with WILD)

So I'd recommend not holding too much awe in the universe (in this exercise -- that stance is certainly important elsewhere, as you know), as it could cause you to hold too much awe in a dream, and thus threaten lucidity, as well as making the late phases of WILD more difficult. Right now only the level of interaction between your self and the world and people around you is what matters.

Also, it is very important not to intellectualize, to give too much thought to any of this, as that might welcome answers that both are not there and that might cloud the purity of the moment.

I did like your suggestion of using things like stomach rumblings as a source for "looking around" if you're standing still; that's an interesting "change up"! But keep in mind that even if you are in the same place you can perform at least one of the tasks I noted above (know that everything you’re doing right now has an effect on everything and everyone around you, and everything and everyone around you has an effect on you ) without feeling silly, and have a genuine experience of wonder every time, even with repetition. This is all about simply understanding that you exist, and your existence has impact -- to think too much about it, in this case, might have the wrong effect.

That said, everyone be assured that Sivason's advice is very good, and should generally be heeded. I'm just presenting something a little different that I hope will ease your way through WILD and elevate your lucid experience. I hope you'll continue to give it a chance.

As usual, if anything I said here is unclear just ask -- I'm better at explaining what I said than I am at saying it in the first place, I think!

Two small questions.

I think I understand what you want us to do with the reverse RC, but i don't understand why you call it reverse RC. How is it reversed?

I find that the absolutely most difficult thing about this is to actually remember to do it. Any good ideas on this?

^^ There are no small questions, Strit.

Originally Posted by Strit

I think I understand what you want us to do with the reverse RC, but i don't understand why you call it reverse RC. How is it reversed?

I think because a state test (RC) specifically asks the question, "is this a dream?" and the answer is based on tests like checking clocks, etc, to confirm that the world around you is or is not a dream, and it is ultimately meant to be done in the dream. The exercise I offer basically asks, "Am I a part of this reality, and is it part of me?" regardless of whether the "reality" is a dream or waking reality, and is ultimately meant to be done in waking life. This to me is a different enough stance to describe it as "reverse," relative to the standard RC.

More mechanically, the beginning of the pause you are taking could well be the RC itself (asking if this is a dream), and the rest is sort of confirming that this is reality and bringing you back to it in a "real" way. That is indeed how I do them myself these days.

I suppose you could call it something like an "RC Extension," or "Derivative RC," but I think "Reverse" fits best, if only because it drops a slightly clearer hint into your mind when you remember to do one that you are doing something different than an RC. Speaking of that:

I find that the absolutely most difficult thing about this is to actually remember to do it. Any good ideas on this?

Me too. My short-term memory is incredibly bad, especially with things like this, so I've tried many different methods over the years, from elastic bands on my wrist up to LaBerge's Personal Electronic State Tester (P.E.S.T. -- which worked very well until it broke for good a year ago). Currently I carry a small wood fetish in my pocket at all times, and remember to do a state test + Reverse RC whenever I happen to feel it.

So there are many ways to remind yourself. I think they have watches and iPhone apps available on line that give random alarms, if you want to buy a machine. Asking a friend to remind you or text you now and then can work (it's an odd thing, but when given the responsibility of the task, your friend might be more reliable than you in remembering to remind you). Setting aside a cue that recurs during your waking life is also effective, like pausing every time you hear a truck pass by, or a dog bark, or a neighbor yell at her kids, or maybe just whenever you're passing through a specific doorway in your home. These are just a few suggestions; there are many tricks to remind you to do what you were supposed to remember; you might just keep browsing them until you find one that works for you...oh, and be prepared to change reminders every few weeks, because you will get used to them quickly and learn to ignore their significance.

I'm sorry Sageous, but the Reverse RC is still kind of confusing to me. I'm not really sure how that helps to be thinking about how yourself is a part of this world.
Sorry if I worded that weirdly; haha I'm just kinda confused.

Originally Posted by Sydney

I'm sorry Sageous, but the Reverse RC is still kind of confusing to me. I'm not really sure how that helps to be thinking about how yourself is a part of this world.
Sorry if I worded that weirdly; haha I'm just kinda confused.

He did say you're not supposed to know how it helps! Trust him, I'm sure it'll all come together in later lessons

Originally Posted by Sydney

I'm sorry Sageous, but the Reverse RC is still kind of confusing to me. I'm not really sure how that helps to be thinking about how yourself is a part of this world. Sorry if I worded that weirdly; haha I'm just kinda confused.

It's okay to be confused, Sydney, especially because that means at least you're doing the checks! In fact, confusion is not far from wonder, so that is not a very bad thing at all.

I hope you'll take RareCola's excellent advice and bear with me on this by just continuing the exercise. It really does matter, because it helps build your self-awareness, which to me is the most important part of LD'ing. I could be wrong, I suppose, but I don't think so.

See, if you have strong self-awareness and really know, almost instinctively, that everything you do has an effect on everything around you, and everything around you has an an effect on you, then when in the dreaming lucidity will be much easier to attain and to sustain, because you'll instinctively know that everything in your dream is effected by you because it all comes from you -- which is the very core of lucid dreaming (whew! Long sentence! Sorry!).

Also, the tough parts of WILD, like hypnagogic imagery or "SP," will be much easier to navigate because, if fully self-aware, you'll literally be unable to fear them because you'll know, without having to think about it, that they are simply things generated by you, and not some scary outside force.

I hope that made sense. If not, I hope you'll trust me and give it a chance...

Originally Posted by Sageous

It's okay to be confused, Sydney, especially because that means at least you're doing the checks! In fact, confusion is not far from wonder, so that is not a very bad thing at all.

I hope you'll take RareCola's excellent advice and bear with me on this by just continuing the exercise. It really does matter, because it helps build your self-awareness, which to me is the most important part of LD'ing. I could be wrong, I suppose, but I don't think so.

See, if you have strong self-awareness and really know, almost instinctively, that everything you do has an effect on everything around you, and everything around you has an an effect on you, then when in the dreaming lucidity will be much easier to attain and to sustain, because you'll instinctively know that everything in your dream is effected by you because it all comes from you -- which is the very core of lucid dreaming (whew! Long sentence! Sorry!).

Also, the tough parts of WILD, like hypnagogic imagery or "SP," will be much easier to navigate because, if fully self-aware, you'll literally be unable to fear them because you'll know, without having to think about it, that they are simply things generated by you, and not some scary outside force.

I hope that made sense. If not, I hope you'll trust me and give it a chance...

I think this will definitely help me a lot. In my lucid dreams I always tend to "slip out" of the lucidity because I seemingly forget that it's a dream and get carried away in myself. Knowing instinctively that it's all a dream definitely seems like a great idea.

Thanks Sageous. Yeah, I think I'm thinking about this too much! I'll stick with, I guess, my confusion. Maybe it'll click in a few days.

Originally Posted by Sydney

Thanks Sageous. Yeah, I think I'm thinking about this too much! I'll stick with, I guess, my confusion. Maybe it'll click in a few days.

That's nice to hear, Sydney. Hang in there, and let it click when it does! I won't tell you how long it took me...

Originally Posted by Sageous

^^ So I'd recommend not holding too much awe in the universe (in this exercise -- that stance is certainly important elsewhere, as you know), as it could cause you to hold too much awe in a dream, and thus threaten lucidity, as well as making the late phases of WILD more difficult. Right now only the level of interaction between your self and the world and people around you is what matters.

Also, it is very important not to intellectualize, to give too much thought to any of this, as that might welcome answers that both are not there and that might cloud the purity of the moment.

Excellent! Thanks for the clarificationns. It makes a lot of sense. I had started off with a little misunderstanding, and that clarifies it. Thanks.

Awe in the dream? Wow. Good point, one I never really concidered yet. New ideas! Great!


...Oh, and I will give a heart felt second to Sageous' comment "It really does matter, because it helps build your self-awareness, which to me is the most important part of LD'ing." Self awareness is step one and should not be under explored.

Is a good way to do it, to visualize it as something simple like everything and everyone being made of dust or little particles and they all flow around freely through everything, that way you can know what you're affecting and what is affecting you or is it more of a general questioning of what is going on with you and existence? I think I have the basic premise down and I just have to remember to do it more.

Yes, you clearly have the basic premise down (and yes indeedy try to remember to do it more!), and your dust metaphor seems like it might work nicely, but can I suggest adding another dimension to it? As you imagine those little particles, maybe also imagine the "little" thoughts or actions made by you and those around you, and think about what they have to do with each other. That way you won't fall into an existential trap of eventually assuming that we're all just a bunch of particles being blown about by forces (like the Wind) completely outside of you and beyond your control. The little thoughts bit adds import to your "swirling," I think, without really messing up your image. I hope that helped!

And yes, your dust image is probably more to my point than not, because you really want to avoid "general questioning of what is going on with you and existence," as that implies a vastness that will dwarf your sense of self come dreamtime, and that is exactly what you do not want to happen if you want to be lucid. I want you to try to think more locally than universally -- and your dust image does that nicely!

While I was answering enak101's question I had the following thought. It had nothing really to do with his question, but I thought it might be worth sharing:

I know I keep harping on this, and will continue to do so, but it is a central theme both to my class and my view of WILD: Try to think of this Reverse RC (can I call it RRC yet? are we ready for another acronym?) as a flexing of your sentience muscles, or perhaps as refining your sense of position in your little corner of the world. It's as simple and local as that. Yes, it's a wholistic attitude, but there's no need to include the whole universe in your RRC's up to three times an hour, as things can get very crowded.

...just a thought.

Hi Sageous!

I had a lucid dream this morning that lasted a few minutes, and I definitely think that self-awareness is the key like you said. The dream was most vivid when I felt my body with my hands to get a sense of myself, but the dream got fuzzy when I tried to rush ahead and subsequently lost focus of myself. Thanks for all the information you have shared so far, as I think it is making a difference.

I do have a question for you though: After you establish your sense of location and sense within the dream, do you ever have to remind yourself of your place in the dream, or is it easy to go on without losing this sense?

Thanks

I was doing my daily attempts with the CANWILD technique, and I woke up to the alarm I had set up to use as an anchor to prepare for a WILD. Everything was perfect, kept my eyes closed, remained still, but the challenge for me was that I was a bit too tired to become conscious for too long.

Actually, I take that back, I was conscious the whole time, but I had some difficulty just trying to think about some basic thoughts. I tried telling to myself, "I'm awake! I'm awake! I'm awake!" but I couldn't find myself to be concentrated long enough before thinking that I would have to wake up early anyway.

I guess I have to work on the visualization more, or at least do an autosuggestion where I remind myself to imagine a dream scene when I wake up from the alarm.

Originally Posted by DinoSawr

Hi Sageous!

I had a lucid dream this morning that lasted a few minutes, and I definitely think that self-awareness is the key like you said. The dream was most vivid when I felt my body with my hands to get a sense of myself, but the dream got fuzzy when I tried to rush ahead and subsequently lost focus of myself. Thanks for all the information you have shared so far, as I think it is making a difference.

That's good news, glad to hear it!

I do have a question for you though: After you establish your sense of location and sense within the dream, do you ever have to remind yourself of your place in the dream, or is it easy to go on without losing this sense?
Thanks

Good question. Yes, if your self-awareness is strong in a dream, the struggle to maintain waking awareness is minimized -- It is still there, but not much of a problem. As a matter of (anecdotal) fact, after you make self- awareness an integral part of waking life, you may find that it is present in most if not all of your dreams: in other words you will know innately that this place you are in is a dream, and waking awareness is always just a decison away. In a sense, you'll potentially have a very low-level of lucidity going on all the time. Don't expect that right away, mind you, such a state might only come after years of practice!

Also, keep in mind that you are not reminding yourself of your place in the dream as much as you are reminding yourself that the dream is your place...it is you. There'll be more on that later, when we talk about the final stage of WILD.

Originally Posted by Linkzelda

I was doing my daily attempts with the CANWILD technique, and I woke up to the alarm I had set up to use as an anchor to prepare for a WILD. Everything was perfect, kept my eyes closed, remained still, but the challenge for me was that I was a bit too tired to become conscious for too long.

Actually, I take that back, I was conscious the whole time, but I had some difficulty just trying to think about some basic thoughts. I tried telling to myself, "I'm awake! I'm awake! I'm awake!" but I couldn't find myself to be concentrated long enough before thinking that I would have to wake up early anyway.

It is a very good idea to be sure you have enough time available for complete dreaming sessions, to prevent this sort of thing from happening -- that'll be noted in this Tuesday's session, as a matter of fact.

I guess I have to work on the visualization more, or at least do an autosuggestion where I remind myself to imagine a dream scene when I wake up from the alarm.

Later, we'll be talking about mantras and visualization-related mental prep meant to help you assemble a dream during WILD; I think you might find those sessions helpful.

Any ideas on why only a few WILD attempts work, even when everything seems to go right? Just a general question, it may not be time to ask general questions, but if so, let the question simmer for awhile and I will ask again another time. Last night I did WBTB. Every state evolved correctly and I fell asleep in a few minutes. I chanted mantras in my sleep, I examined my sensory awareness in my sleep, I enjoyed fantastic and interesting HIs. I had to shift a bit as I WILD on my back so I snuck enough awareness to peak at the clock. Thirty minutes, then next time 1.5 hours. I finally gave in and moved to a side position and lost awareness.
I do not expect an answer, but just if you shared your opinion it may help. Everything was in place, but 1.5 hours and no REM even though I waited for an interrupted REM cycle to begin.
I must confess that prior to bed I had 2 glasses of wine, do you have any opinion on how much the wine may have messed this up?

Originally Posted by sivason

Any ideas on why only a few WILD attempts work, even when everything seems to go right? Just a general question, it may not be time to ask general questions, but if so, let the question simmer for awhile and I will ask again another time. Last night I did WBTB. Every state evolved correctly and I fell asleep in a few minutes. I chanted mantras in my sleep, I examined my sensory awareness in my sleep, I enjoyed fantastic and interesting HIs. I had to shift a bit as I WILD on my back so I snuck enough awareness to peak at the clock. Thirty minutes, then next time 1.5 hours. I finally gave in and moved to a side position and lost awareness.
I do not expect an answer, but just if you shared your opinion it may help. Everything was in place, but 1.5 hours and no REM even though I waited for an interrupted REM cycle to begin.
I must confess that prior to bed I had 2 glasses of wine, do you have any opinion on how much the wine may have messed this up?

Well alcohol inhibits REM sleep for a start

Hey Sageous, I have a couple of questions.
This was taken from a post I did a couple of minutes ago in the WILD forum of DV:

Hi all. Last night I tried to WILD, after a long time; about 2 months or so. I got up (naturally) for WBTB I think a little too late (about 7 hours). I then went to the bathroom and got back in bed. I layed on my back with my arms at my sides. I then just focused on not letting my mind wander too much. After a minute or so, I started to focus on the sound of my fan blowing. I did this until I got really uncomfortable (about 5-7 minutes in), but tried to bear with it. Eventually I don't know what happened. I think I fell asleep, but I woke up for the day in the same position. I was really stiff, so I hadn't moved. Just thought I would add that bit in.

I guess I need help with being focused. Any tips?
Oh and also, how long does it usually take you to transition? I've never gone through the transition, actually only once. But it was so hazy.

Oh and, any tips on how I can form my WILDing technique into something more helpful? (ie, something that'll boost the success of my WILD)

Thanks!

I'm confused on how it didn't work - but I think the late WBTB is what caused it. Do you know what could have happened?
Sorry.... I'm just desperate for some answers. I'm ready to get WILDing

Sivason and Sydney:

Okay, here's the thing:

I assume that you are attending this class because you either do not know how to do a WILD, or think you know but can't seem to get them to work. If you are already proficient at WILD'ing, then I imagine you would not be here. So I have to ask: why are you attempting WILD's when we've only completed one brief session, and haven't even started talking about WILD's themselves yet, much less how to do them?

That to me doesn't make sense. I highly recommend that you give my course a chance, be patient, and let me try to lay out for you a route to successful WILD'ing.... that's why I'm doing this. I even more highly recommend that you do not do any WILD's at all until we get to the point in the class where it makes sense to do so. We will reach that point soon enough, and when we do I'll set up a separate thread dedicated to discussion and examination of your attempts. Attempting WILD at this point is like a flight student stealing the plane and attempting to solo before he's even been instructed on taxiing; that is never a good thing. Please be patient, guys; by the time we get to actual WILD attempts you'll likely be able to answer all the questions you asked today yourselves. That, I thought, was the point of the course.

So for now, if anyone must attempt WILD's before we've reached that point in the course, please don't tell me you tried, or ask for advice on them here. There are about 19 gazillion threads on this site alone offering advice on failed WILD's to people who have not learned how to do them. Go there. My goal here is to teach you how to do WILD, and I really must do so one step at a time, and not by answering questions relating to things I haven't even told you yet. I hope you understand.

That said...

Sivason: The simple answer to your question is that WILD's are not easy. There are many factors that must go right for them to work, and one or two factors are regularly missed -- even by experts. I spotted three in your post offhand: Timing, attention, and physical prep. We're talking about timing on Tuesday, so you'll likely get an answer about that bit then; yes, that simple glance at the clock may have been enough to totally screw you up because any lapse in attention could blow the whole session -- and the lapse was not the glance at the clock, but the thought that generated the glance; finally, yes, alcohol can effect REM, so it's not a great idea to imbibe the night before a session.

Sydney: I highly recommend that you try to be patient and follow the course. It will answer all of your questions in due time, and tell you things you hadn't thought to ask; please give it a chance. For instance, WILD's can take a very long time to finish -- sometimes I'm "still" for well over an hour before I get in or give up. An important detail like that will definitely be talked about, along with tips on how to stay focused if things go long. I understand that you're excited and want to get at it, but this is a very difficult technique, especially when done incorrectly. Again, please be patient.


Bottom line/tl;dr: I really want to address everything in an order that works best for all of us, and it is simply not time to advise on your WILD attempts yet. When WILD time comes, and it will, I'll address all I can, with interest. I hope you understand. I also hope you are able to be patient and put off any attempts -- even if you are sure you know how to WILD -- until we get to the "attempt" part. You likely will not regret it.

Thanks for your patience!

Originally Posted by Sageous

Sivason and Sydney:

Okay, here's the thing:

I assume that you are attending this class because you either do not know how to do a WILD, or think you know but can't seem to get them to work. If you are already proficient at WILD'ing, then I imagine you would not be here. So I have to ask: why are you attempting WILD's when we've only completed one brief session, and haven't even started talking about WILD's themselves yet, much less how to do them?

That to me doesn't make sense. I highly recommend that you give my course a chance, be patient, and let me try to lay out a route to successful WILD'ing.... that's why I'm doing this. I even more highly recommend that you do not do any WILD's at all until we get to the point in the class where it makes sense to do so. We will reach that point soon enough, and when we do I'll set up a separate thread dedicated to discussion and examination of your attempts. Attempting WILD at this point is like a flight student stealing the plane and attempting to solo before he's even been instructed on taxiing; that is never a good thing. Please be patient, guys; by the time we get to actual WILD attempts you'll likely be able to answer all the questions you asked today yourselves. That, I thought, was the point of the course.

So for now, if anyone must attempt WILD's before we've reached that point in the course, please don't tell me you tried, or ask for advice on them here. There are about 19 gazillion threads on this site alone offering advice on failed WILD's to people who have not learned how to do them. Go there. My goal here is to teach you how to do WILD, and I really must do so one step at a time, and not by answering questions relating to things I haven't even told you yet.

Thanks for your patience!

I'm glad you brought this up and I particularly like your "flight student stealing the plane and attempting to solo before he's even been instructed on taxiing" analogy. Sometimes I fear people forget that lucid dreaming is a skill, and like any skill getting ahead of yourself before learning the basics is silly and not going to get you anywhere!

Back on topic though. Today I've noticed that, since getting into the habit of performing the RRC every hour, I'm starting to naturally have moments where I get this same "awe" feeling in my surroundings. Just a short while ago I was slicing an apple and even something as simple as that I was habitually observing it that I was bending the world around me as I split apart the atoms making up the apple. Interesting how your perspective changes.