Thread: Lucid Dreaming Fundamentals -- With Q & A

^^ That sounds very similar to the P.E.S.T., indeed! And you didn't have to drop $150 for the app, I'd bet... times do change.; for what it's worth, my phone still hangs on my kitchen wall.

Two times per hour is probably good, but it's also good to change up occasionally, just to keep the cues random.

Toastr sounds like a good idea, as long as that message always makes you smile!

This was a very informative thread and I want to thank you for it Sageous, it helped me get my mind in a correct setting again. It got lost in the 'technique jungle'.

I think I grasp the idea of self-awareness by now but I need a little more help.

I would really appreciate it if you could give a personal example of how you do your self-awareness exercise. I still have a little trouble with it.

Thanks in advance.

Hi Arazia:

I guess the simplest self-awareness exercise I do is what came during my WILD class to be called a RRC, for Reverse Reality Check. Originally the routine was to pause every now and then and remember where I was a few minutes ago, where I was right now, where I would be in a few minutes, and then wonder, really wonder, how my presence was effecting my immediate reality, and how my immediate reality was effecting me.

A simpler version of that still is to just pause every few minutes and really think about where you are, that you're taking up real space, and you are influencing that space just as it influences you. This doesn't help with memory, though, which is also very important in LD'ing (being a fundamental, and all ).

Ultimately I guess the basic plan for self-awareness development is teaching yourself to habitually wonder, with real sincerity, about the fact that everything you do has an effect on reality, and other people, and everything reality and other people do has an effect on you. Making this sense of wonder a part of your waking life, and understanding that you have a position in reality, always, will help you have a strong sense of self-awareness in the dream, along with a real understanding about the nature of your dream (that this reality is yours).

I hope that made sense; it always sounds so clear in my head... if not, ask again!

Thanks for the quick reply, it definitely became clearer for me.

Originally Posted by Sageous

Ultimately I guess the basic plan for self-awareness development is teaching yourself to habitually wonder, with real sincerity, about the fact that everything you do has an effect on reality, and other people, and everything reality and other people do has an effect on you.

In the post you said that I should habitually wonder. After reading this entire thread, I thought that this self-awareness exercise shouldn't become a habit, and whenever it became a habit, you should change it. I didn't really understand how you actually changed this exercise, I didn't understand it, mainly because self-awareness is a specific part of awareness. So how do you change and refresh your self-awareness exercises?

Sorry. I wrote that quickly and should have thought of better words.

When I say habitually here, I mean that it should be done regularly, as a part -- an important part -- of your waking-life daily activities. What I did not mean, and what I've said before, is that things like these exercises (and RC's) should never become rote, or just a thing you do because you're supposed to, and you ask your questions dutifully but without even thinking about the answers, much less wondering... that kind of habit is a bad thing.

Yes, it is a difficult thing to change, because the question and mood is so general. But, thanks to that general nature, changing what you're doing is not that important. I think you can keep the RRC fresh by adding or subtracting the amount of time you consider, or forming a question relative to whatever you might be thinking about right now -- for example, if you just had a fight with a family member, your RRC might include that, and would be much different than, say, you just left a party with your family (unless the fight was at the party, of course!). Indeed, given its focus, and the fact that reality is always changing -- even when at first glance you're sure it isn't -- your RRC's will likely be different each time, if you're doing them in good conscience. RC's, on the other hand, need to be changed regularly to keep them fresh, but that's something much different.

One quick exception I must take, though: in your question, you affirmed that "self-awareness is a specific part of awareness." That is not the case, I think. Awareness is a natural survival function that every living thing practices to some degree, many of them doing so far more expertly than humans. Self-awareness on the other hand is a product of sentience, which could well be a very unnatural accident of the developing power of the human brain. Self-awareness may and must include awareness, but awareness arguably never includes self-awareness. Though self-awareness functionally may draw from a few (but not all) of the same brain cells that produce awareness, it is by no means the same thing, and definitely not a subset of awareness. ... this is important, so if I didn't make any sense let me know and I'll try again.

That made sense, very much actually.

I have to let the notion about self-awareness sink in, but I think I understood!

Thanks.

Originally Posted by Sageous

They've given me pause.

Aside from the obvious stuff, like the fact that my decades of mental calisthenics for the sake of readying me to LD have helped establish a sense of “self” that I would never have had if I weren't interested in LD'ing (my memory still sucks, though I blame genetics and age for that!), I find myself taking a moment, usually without noticing I did so, to step back and look carefully at situations I might be in, decisions I might be making, or just what I'm really doing as I waste hours in front of the TV. In other words, I have a tendency to remove myself from reality for just a second, a pause, to give it a good once-over -- just like I do in almost all of my dreams. I'm not sure that made sense, but it is the most interesting influence this work has had on my waking life.

Also, my time in LD's has given me an opportunity to wonder if there really is something more out there, something beyond this mortal coil. This opportunity has no counterpart in waking life, period. And, as an added bonus, LD'ing is a hands-on method for exploring that something more, whenever I think I've seen it, rather than just imagining what it could be, or, worse, choosing to believe what someone else told me it is. That, I think, may have changed me, right down to the core of my being, in ways that would never have happened had I never "woken up" in those dreams when I was a teenager. And, when the core of your being is changed, so too I imagine is your view of everyday life!

My wife insists that LD’ing has affected me in other ways, among them my unwavering optimism -- countered by a cynical skepticism of pretty much everything shown me; my infinite patience; the fact that I will not get mad at annoying people or situations that cross our path, because they just don’t matter; and that I have a habit of putting myself in other people’s shoes and defending them, even when they’ve hurt us. But I’m not sure if I would have been that way had I never LD’d, so I can’t say for sure that my dreaming life influenced me. She would say it did, though!

I’m sure there’s more but I’m afraid I’m a wee bit too close to the subject to really know.

Great question, fOrceez; you’ve given me something to think about for the rest of the day. Thanks…I think.

I am still working my way through this thread, but wow...So many good things here! I am nowhere near your level but find it heartening that I see some tidbits of what you described above seemingly starting to happen to me. I hope I keep it up and build it up! Reading some of the things your wife would say about you made you sound like a kindred spirit. The thing about putting yourself in other people's shoes...I do that also and it unfortunately annoys my wife and son..so I am working on balancing that and making sure I put myself in my wife and son's shoes as well when this happens.

I have read the entire thread. So much great information! Thank you Sageous!! I may go back through it at a leisurely pace again as I imagine some things earlier in the thread will sink in even more after the initial full read. May I also draw upon your many years of lucid dreaming and ask some questions? (after finishing this post I realize I have listed way too many questions..no need to answer all of them - or any of them for that matter). Some of the questions may have been for myself to consider, but any input is welcome!

I am wondering if you think I should tweak anything with my current self awareness and memory exercises or if I am doing anything all wrong or too much. I am using the mindfulness bell app that I mentioned at the top of this page(page 8 of the thread) to randomly remind me to check in to self awareness (bell is not truly random I found, but I am manually switching the settings to randomize when it rings). I am using the Toastr app mentioned in that same earlier post for 2 things: 1. as another way to remind me whenever I reach for my phone and unlock it and 2. it flashes up a custom message showing my 6 different exercises and I plan to pick one to use that day but also throw in items *A & F daily (at least that is what I did yesterday, still looking for tweaks). I have been doing my self awareness check-ins about 10-12 times a day on average.

in no particular order..exercises to choose from:

*A. RC (proposing to do daily)
B. Ask "is this a dream?" and then occasionally imagine that it is (imagining RC showing dream) and incubating that "aha" feeling and remembering that my sleeping body is back in bed but my mind can do anything and everything.
C. Ask "What was I just doing?" (maybe add what I am doing now and what will I be doing in 2-5 minutes? but while at work that could be too repetitive!) Save other two questions for weekends?
D. Ask "What was I doing 15 minutes ago?" (too much like last one? or just enough of a change up to keep things from becoming rote?)
E. Working on perspective...seeing things from different points of view, like the humming bird's view in my back yard looking back at me & beyond.
*F. I AM HERE with my surroundings and "we" have an effect on each other. (When you are in common settings: sitting at work, sitting on couch, laying in bed, is it important to keep finding new ways that you and your surroundings have an effect on each other? Or maybe just do that every once in a while and the rest of the times acknowledging more passively the things you have noticed in the past? My example laying in bed: I have an effect on the bed-the mattress gives in to my weight & I wear it out a little at a time, the sheets I am warming them and leaving skin cells on them, my wife-various examples; and each of them with an effect on me. The air in the room- I warm it up and it also affects my body temperature. I take in the oxygen and exhale carbon dioxide that benefits the plants and vice versa... (proposing to do daily)
G. this comes up separately and I use it around 3-4 times a day. It is through an app called "Conscious" that has a daily activity and a community of people who participate and reflect on how the activity went. Recent activities have been "Be aware of existence" "Watch how you judge yourself" and "Be aware of distractions." Not sure if this may be adding too much...

In reading how some have gotten bored with LDs it made me feel, well, no need to rush into frequent LDs...on the other hand I am in my early 40's and may need to heed the caution on age's effect on memory/LDs you mentioned in the latter part of this thread. I had some LDs as a boy but got away from them or even recalling most dreams at some point while still young. I am coming back, and having success, but hopefully not too late to make some great advancements..

You read the whole thread? Bless your heart, fogelbise, and I hope it helped.

Here's a couple of responses to our questions; sorry for their brevity, but time is short; ask again if you want more.

Originally Posted by fogelbise

... I am wondering if you think I should tweak anything with my current self awareness and memory exercises or if I am doing anything all wrong or too much. I am using the mindfulness bell app that I mentioned at the top of this page(page 8 of the thread) to randomly remind me to check in to self awareness (bell is not truly random I found, but I am manually switching the settings to randomize when it rings). I am using the Toastr app mentioned in that same earlier post for 2 things: 1. as another way to remind me whenever I reach for my phone and unlock it and 2. it flashes up a custom message showing my 6 different exercises and I plan to pick one to use that day but also throw in items *A & F daily (at least that is what I did yesterday, still looking for tweaks). I have been doing my self awareness check-ins about 10-12 times a day on average.

Be wary of all those machines (aka, Apps), fogelbise! They may seem handy tools and good reminder engines, but ultimately self-awareness is an introspection that must occur naturally and regularly (if not all the time), so the Apps and aids are not permanent solutions to gain you self-awareness but temporary supports while you build your own independent systems. I think you already know that, but I figured it needed saying anyway.

Now to some of those details:

A. RC (proposing to do daily)

Hourly is better for RC's, while being careful not to make them too regimented.

B. Ask "is this a dream?" and then occasionally imagine that it is (imagining RC showing dream) and incubating that "aha" feeling and remembering that my sleeping body is back in bed but my mind can do anything and everything.

That's fine, except that you might keep the RC query separate from any incubation. Simply doing a quick RC, like checking and re-checking a clock, to confirm that you're awake (or dreaming!) is enough. I've always had a problem with incubating "dream intensive" moments like the a-ha feeling or remembering where your sleeping body is, though. Why? Because if you spend too much time "practicing" that a-ha feeling or the action of remembering where your sleeping body is, you run an excellent chance of creating an expectation of these things, and in doing so invite your dreaming mind to dutifully create both the a-ha feeling and a false memory of your sleeping body during a regular non-lucid dream, which in turn will likely bring on a false-lucid rather than lucidity. Best to stick to checking clocks, etc, when doing RC's, and keep the "RRC" questions relative to your immediate moment in reality, rather than projecting potential dreaming moments (more in a second).

C. Ask "What was I just doing?" (maybe add what I am doing now and what will I be doing in 2-5 minutes? but while at work that could be too repetitive!) Save other two questions for weekends?
D. Ask "What was I doing 15 minutes ago?" (too much like last one? or just enough of a change up to keep things from becoming rote?)

Yes, these too things are the same, I think; try not to get too involved in this stuff, lest the intellectual details bog you down!

For what it's worth, I suggest using the 15-minute range in both directions. 2 minutes is both too close to where you are now, and also really doesn't give you enough range to "find" a usable chunk of your interchange with reality to consider.

Since the real purpose of an RRC is to really wonder about your presence in your local reality, try to think of the questions as triggers rather than specific things that must be correctly answered. In other words, if you can ask all three questions every time, that's great (that's what I do, though at this point I tend to skip right to the answers). But if you find yourself sitting there reciting long questions or perhaps correctly considering the depth of maybe just one of them, then there's no need to ask all three ... I just thought of that, and hope it doesn't conflict with previous things I said.

Also, the "changing up" you need to do to keep the RRC's from becoming rote is sourced in the answers, and not the questions. Those three questions can always be the same -- again, I never even ask them anymore -- because reality is always different, as is your exchange with it. If you think it's the same, then either you're always asking the question at the same time (not a good idea, more in a sec), or else you're not allowing yourself to wonder deeply enough. Remember that the purpose of this is not like an RC, which is a state test, but rather it is meant to prepare your mind to automatically understand during a dream that it is in a dream, and that dream is a reality created by you. An RRC is not a state test, but a state of mind.

E. Working on perspective...seeing things from different points of view, like the humming bird's view in my back yard looking back at me & beyond.

I have nothing to add to that, because it's just excellent. I see you've already checked out Lidybug's Clear Light thread, which is also excellent!

*F. I AM HERE with my surroundings and "we" have an effect on each other. (When you are in common settings: sitting at work, sitting on couch, laying in bed, is it important to keep finding new ways that you and your surroundings have an effect on each other? Or maybe just do that every once in a while and the rest of the times acknowledging more passively the things you have noticed in the past? My example laying in bed: I have an effect on the bed-the mattress gives in to my weight & I wear it out a little at a time, the sheets I am warming them and leaving skin cells on them, my wife-various examples; and each of them with an effect on me. The air in the room- I warm it up and it also affects my body temperature. I take in the oxygen and exhale carbon dioxide that benefits the plants and vice versa... (proposing to do daily)

A couple of quick thoughts here: First, try not to get too specific with RRC's; this is an exercise to make you wonder, not carefully examine, because too rigorous an examination is not particularly important during the dream. Self-awareness, again, is a global condition, be careful not to parse it too far down.

If you find yourself wondering if you should be finding new ways to consider your interaction with reality, you might consider simply doing the RRC's at different times, instead. Though it always seems that places like "in bed" are the times you remember to do them (it's the bathroom and stairway in my case), it might be better to do an RRC during unusual times, and during all variety of daily activity. Also, try to avoid places you know really really well, like your bed, where your interaction is almost rote by nature.

G. this comes up separately and I use it around 3-4 times a day. It is through an app called "Conscious" that has a daily activity and a community of people who participate and reflect on how the activity went. Recent activities have been "Be aware of existence" "Watch how you judge yourself" and "Be aware of distractions." Not sure if this may be adding too much...

I can't believe they make all these apps! I too am not sure this one will help much, but hey, you never know!

In reading how some have gotten bored with LDs it made me feel, well, no need to rush into frequent LDs...on the other hand I am in my early 40's and may need to heed the caution on age's effect on memory/LDs you mentioned in the latter part of this thread. I had some LDs as a boy but got away from them or even recalling most dreams at some point while still young. I am coming back, and having success, but hopefully not too late to make some great advancements..

It's not too late yet; I'm in my 50's and still get lucid; memory issues do make it more difficult to hit the lucid sweet spots I used to enjoy quite easily, but I'm foreseeing developing my self-awareness in dreams, and being surprised by new adventures, for decades to come. It is far more important to pursue quality over quantity in LD'ing anyway, so your head seems in the right place. I can also see how just having LD's to have them would be boring, too.

That's all I got for now; I hope all that helped, and wasn't to vague.

What a great post there, Sageous. It's clarified a lot of things for me, particularly in regard as whether to replicate those 'aha' moments for RC (which always seemed a it of a fatuous exercise compared to simply testing your state).

I will be back later when I have time to go over your very thorough notes and figure out the questions I might still have. The notes and your time are so very appreciated Sageous!!

edit/reply: I meant I would be back later tonight when I have a chance to wrap my mind around everything and respond or request any clarifications if you would be able to again.

You're most welcome, and good luck with your search!

First of all, I really appreciate your time given in answering my questions and the countless others contained in this thread! I just saw last night what an extensive class you put together as well! I was looking for more explanations of your RRC.

Originally Posted by Sageous

You read the whole thread? Bless your heart, fogelbise, and I hope it helped.

Here's a couple of responses to our questions; sorry for their brevity, but time is short; ask again if you want more.

I feel the thread is a valuable resource! So why not read it all...If you are able to have a look when you get a chance I have some remaining questions and threw in some comments.

That's fine, except that you might keep the RC query separate from any incubation.

That makes sense now...I only used incubation during my RCs on 2 separate days. My plan/current exercise is to always do the RC and RRC along with one other item from a list during my hourly(approximately) "check-in". Do you think it is okay to be doing them during the same check in? For example: RRC + RC + considering perspective or RRC + RC + Conscious community exercise.

Yes, these too things are the same, I think; try not to get too involved in this stuff, lest the intellectual details bog you down!

I tend to over think things at times...says my son, and not think enough at other times...says my wife.

For what it's worth, I suggest using the 15-minute range in both directions. 2 minutes is both too close to where you are now, and also really doesn't give you enough range to "find" a usable chunk of your interchange with reality to consider.

Since the real purpose of an RRC is to really wonder about your presence in your local reality, try to think of the questions as triggers rather than specific things that must be correctly answered. In other words, if you can ask all three questions every time, that's great (that's what I do, though at this point I tend to skip right to the answers). But if you find yourself sitting there reciting long questions or perhaps correctly considering the depth of maybe just one of them, then there's no need to ask all three ... I just thought of that, and hope it doesn't conflict with previous things I said.

On "correctly considering the depth of maybe just one of them"...could you provide an example you considered recently?

I am thinking (or over-thinking!) that it will help me make sure that I am not under-doing the RRC now. Earlier today I also read this from your thread "WILD According to Sageous Q & A" :

That "Aha" sensation is at the core of this exercise. It ought to feel a bit weird, even transcendental. And if you can summon that sensation during a dream, you'll not only be lucid but suddenly the "weird" bit will all make sense, because you're having it in the context of the dream -- aka your own personal reality, where everything is you and you are everything. So it would be most helpful to have this attitude of wonder without explanation as a part of you in a dream, if only to "naturally" prevent you from intellectualizing yourself out of lucidity... It doesn't hurt in waking life, either.

Earlier I stepped outside and just felt "I am here" feeling the wind blowing lightly and the birds chirping and the coolness of the air. It did feel like a sense of wonder and put a smile on my face but I did not think too deeply and it made me doubt later if I am under-doing it and if you had your own recent example of "considering the depth(of one of the RRC answers)"?

At this stage I can ponder the questions internally without asking them out loud or drawing them out, but I am not at the stage of going straight to the answer or sense of wonder except in the immediate moment part of the 3 "questions". Hearing how I tend to over-think things, would you say it might be better to have my mind kind of float in the moment with more of a vague sense of my interaction in the world without going down to the gritty details?

My example in bed was a poor one used mainly to point out the mundane nature of the setting and thus the challenge in doing the RRC in that setting.

I gather that the RRC's primary purpose is building up self awareness, but would you say (probably have?) that it is also a memory exercise in that you think about a moment from 15 minutes before?

The night after you responded I had what I was sure at the time was an LD and when I was going through the forums and reminded about what you said about false LDs I decided to contemplate it. I feel like my waking mind was involved at a low to medium level. Do you mind giving me your opinion? (it was a bit short and I will cut out the previous regular dreams recalled) I will put it in a spoiler to make it a more optional read...

Spoiler for my assumed LD from night before last:

There are a variety of birds in my back yard all different kinds medium or normal size, small birds and some a little bigger like the variety I do see in real life in the back. But it is odd to see them all together as one will usually scare off another although not always but never this many different birds all together. 1 pigeon with a feather-crown like seen on a recent news story IRL walked through the group of birds and I was thinking that that he would scare away the other birds but no they just kinda parted a little bit as he passes through walking along the ground . I think it might have been my son saying that they look like a big group of friends that probably hang out together all the time. My son is sitting on the floor looking through our screen door at all these birds I am standing just to the right of him also looking out. Y is standing to the left of him looking out. Mother in law is sitting at the table mostly just
looking at us, C and girl Friday are in the room also. At some point the sliding screen door is open and I say we have to be careful don't let the birds in and some of the birds start coming near the screen and I begin to imagine (just like I would in real life that the bird could start flying around the house and flying up stairs and how would we get him out. In real life I often play out scenarios of what could happen as my mind goes off on a tangent.) Girl Friday approaches me and is asking questions maybe something like Hey could you..or do you like it when I.. She begins to press her cheek against mine while she stands behind me caressing her body against mine. I can feel her skin and hear her voice so vividly. I turn my cheek into her cheek we begin to kiss open mouth with tongues clashing feverishly. This is when I realize that it is a dream. Just before this I could feel the others looking at girl Fridays interaction with me
and kind of wondering what she is doing. And whether it is appropriate. We continue to kiss and I think of my physical body sleeping back there somewhere avoiding focusing too much on exactly where or focusing on the body too much. Excited I decide to fly up and away to a more exciting location and I think no wait I want to grab girl Fridays hand and bring her with me but I don't I think it worked so I'm flying through fairly plain scape and I reach my cheek back like I did before try to start kissing again what is like I'm kissing the air she is gone I left her behind. So I continue flying on some brief images flash by and I continue on and towards a white scape that have some grids in it not perfect grids but it formed like six to nine sections closest to squares but not perfectly drawn. I wake up lying in bed grinning from ear to ear lay there for a little while reflecting on the dream and then I get up having to urinate really badly.

I still like putting in my thoughts in the dream journal. But I will definitely try not to over analyze the content.

You ask tough questions, fogelbise! I guess that's a good thing, for both of us.

Originally Posted by fogelbise

...I only used incubation during my RCs on 2 separate days. My plan/current exercise is to always do the RC and RRC along with one other item from a list during my hourly(approximately) "check-in". Do you think it is okay to be doing them during the same check in? For example: RRC + RC + considering perspective or RRC + RC + Conscious community exercise.

Not only is it a good thing, I highly recommend it ... at least combining RC's and RRC's, anyway. I can't comment on the Conscious community bit because I don't know enough of it, but I'm sure it'll do no harm. Also, since considering perspective could easily be mixed in with an RRC (or even replace it), it only makes sense to combine. I think when you're practiced at this it won't seem like a lot at all -- except when you try to explain it to someone else!

On "correctly considering the depth of maybe just one of them"...could you provide an example you considered recently?

Sure. Just the other day I was checking to see if I had mail yet -- you know, the paper stuff that gets put in a metal box outside every day -- and as I reached for the front door I saw that the mailman was just arriving in the driveway. Normally I would duck back into the house and wait for him to drop off the mail and leave before opening the door (I'm not a big fan of small talk, especially with strangers), but for some reason I decided to open the door, greet the mailman and take my mail directly from him. I think my decision was (unconsciously) based on the very sad expression on the mailman's face. So I did, making it appear that I happened to open the door as he approached the mailbox hanging beside it. I said something friendly, I can't remember what, and then wished him a good day. The sudden glow on his is face made it all worth it. He handed me my mail, wished me a good day, and left with a bit more energy in his gait. I reentered the house without a thought, and set about my next chore, forgetting the moment.

Later, when I did an RRC, the thing I remembered was that encounter with the mailman. During the reverie, I wondered if he had just had a miserable encounter with a neighbor, or a dog, and was feeling very bad, angry, or sorry for himself, and if perhaps the humble gesture of my friendly greeting was enough to get him to shake off the bad feelings. I wondered if I had done some good. From there, I considered what effect opening the door, against my normal rules, had on me. Well, aside from feeling like I did some good, I also was shown by the world that facing it now and then is not a bad thing, and might have been strengthened to do so again some time.

Now, none of that sounds like much, and the incident lasted only seconds, but it was enough to fill my whole RRC, making it unnecessary to ask the other two questions. In other words, my consideration of depth of my place in reality a few minutes earlier -- something I would never have done without the RRC (I would certainly have otherwise discarded the moment from my short term memory bank) -- and my sense of wonder at the impact of my small gesture on the mailman, and perhaps vise-versa, was more than enough to put my mind in the right place, I think.

I am thinking (or over-thinking!) that it will help me make sure that I am not under-doing the RRC now. Earlier today I also read this from your thread "WILD According to Sageous Q & A:"

That "Aha" sensation is at the core of this exercise. It ought to feel a bit weird, even transcendental. And if you can summon that sensation during a dream, you'll not only be lucid but suddenly the "weird" bit will all make sense, because you're having it in the context of the dream -- aka your own personal reality, where everything is you and you are everything. So it would be most helpful to have this attitude of wonder without explanation as a part of you in a dream, if only to "naturally" prevent you from intellectualizing yourself out of lucidity... It doesn't hurt in waking life, either.

Earlier I stepped outside and just felt "I am here" feeling the wind blowing lightly and the birds chirping and the coolness of the air. It did feel like a sense of wonder and put a smile on my face but I did not think too deeply and it made me doubt later if I am under-doing it and if you had your own recent example of "considering the depth(of one of the RRC answers)"?

Yes, you might have been under-doing it. This bit was easily the most difficult thing I've attempted to describe in the WILD, and, though the description you quoted was my best shot, I still think I fell short.

Though your "I am here" feeling is a very good thing, and everyone ought to do exactly what you did every day, it really won't help much with self-awareness, and, oddly, might work against you in a dream.

Why won't it help? Because what you're doing is placing yourself in your environment, but you're giving the environment the edge: instead of knowing that you are influencing your environment just as much as it is influencing you, you are instead conceding that you are standing in a wonderful place comprised of beautiful things that are much greater than you, and you are impressed and joyful that you both get to be a part of it and had the good sense to notice it. This is a very good thing, and, I believe, an important aspect of ADA and many meditation forms, but it ain't gonna help you in a dream.

Why? Imagine your dream character "You" doing the exact same thing in a dream (and it can and will happen, if it hasn't already). What will it accomplish? Well, it will make the dream more important than You, and make your interaction in it little more than whatever the DC You's current participation might have been, if not less. In other words, you'll make the dream environment more important than you, and less about you; that might feel as good in the dream as it does in waking life, but it'll do nothing for your self-awareness.

As usual, I hope that made sense, and hope I came closer to getting it right that time. This stuff really needs a book, I think; these short posts just don't do it justice.

At this stage I can ponder the questions internally without asking them out loud or drawing them out, but I am not at the stage of going straight to the answer or sense of wonder except in the immediate moment part of the 3 "questions". Hearing how I tend to over-think things, would you say it might be better to have my mind kind of float in the moment with more of a vague sense of my interaction in the world without going down to the gritty details?

Yes. In fact, I suggest you make that a goal. Indeed, feel free to ignore everything I tediously just made you read in order to make room for that goal, and the thought behind it!

I gather that the RRC's primary purpose is building up self awareness, but would you say (probably have?) that it is also a memory exercise in that you think about a moment from 15 minutes before?

It is absolutely a memory exercise. I do believe I mentioned it once or twice, but I would have done so softly, because my focus in the WILD class was self-awareness. That was probably a mistake, because the "where was I a moment ago?" question was originally a mnemonic exercise for MILD (swiped from EWOLD or one of LeBerge's papers, I think) that I included in the RRC because it fit quite nicely, serving a dual purpose I barely noticed. I think it would have done no harm to mention that it would be good for memory as well... I suppose I could say I forgot?

The night after you responded I had what I was sure at the time was an LD and when I was going through the forums and reminded about what you said about false LDs I decided to contemplate it. I feel like my waking mind was involved at a low to medium level. Do you mind giving me your opinion?

Interesting dream... from the way you described it, I would say that it was indeed an actual LD, with self-awareness and memory being fairly present if only for a minute: during the end of the kiss and the first moment of flight, before you decided to go back for Ms Friday. From there I think lucidity might have begun to fade, or rather wakefulness, the end of REM, or both, were on the immediate horizon. The end of the flight was likely not lucid at all. But who cares? That moment of lucidity seemed worth it, and it provided you with a waking-life-quality memory that will stay with you for a long time!

I still like putting in my thoughts in the dream journal. But I will definitely try not to over analyze the content.

That is a very good idea. Over-analyzing is never a good thing, and can potentially damage your memory of a dream and its intended impact on you (or, conversely, create an impact where one was never meant to exist).

As an aside: for a while I kept a separate journal in which I entered my thoughts, interpretations, hopes, and imaginings about particular dreams. I don't do it anymore, as I'm happy to let all that extra stuff go shortly after recording the dream, and in all honesty feel that the actual moment of the dream is far more important than how I see that moment in retrospect. But that's me, and I know I'm in a small club among dreamers in that respect, so if you enjoy examining your dreams then go for it -- but I suggest you keep that examination separate, if possible, so as not to muddle or corrupt your rereading of the dreams in years to come.

As usual, I hope all that made sense, and be sure to call me on it if it didn't.

I owe you Sageous! Thank you so much for your thoughtful and detailed response!! Let me know if I can return the favor somehow..maybe help with some task.

Been reading through the thread again.

This in particular is a really helpful post.

My overly analytic brain can start to doubt and form mental blocks about LDing, it's good to regain perspective. There's no reason to doubt the validity of my practice, I think I prevent success a lot of the time from simply trying too hard.

I keep falling into the trap of attaching lucidity to technique rather than fundamentals (I know, even after everything I wrote about that trap). I keep having to relearn lessons about the fundamentals, even my own lessons.

Originally Posted by Ctharlhie

My overly analytic brain can start to doubt and form mental blocks about LDing, it's good to regain perspective. There's no reason to doubt the validity of my practice, I think I prevent success a lot of the time from simply trying too hard.

I keep falling into the trap of attaching lucidity to technique rather than fundamentals (I know, even after everything I wrote about that trap). I keep having to relearn lessons about the fundamentals, even my own lessons.

The process never ends, as the lessons seem doomed by nature to fade from inattention. Kinda sucks, doesn't it?

Thanks for re-checking the thread; I do appreciate it!

Originally Posted by fogelbise

I owe you Sageous! Thank you so much for your thoughtful and detailed response!! Let me know if I can return the favor somehow..maybe help with some task.

I may take you up on that sometime. For now, though, the only task would be setting aside the priority of technique and lucid aids an focus on the fundamentals.

Originally Posted by Sageous

The process never ends, as the lessons seem doomed by nature to fade from inattention. Kinda sucks, doesn't it?

Thanks for re-checking the thread; I do appreciate it!

It's an excellent resource for counteracting inattention.

That may have been the plan...

Thanks for this thread - I'm really, really glad that I stumbled upon it so soon after joining DV. I haven't had many lucid dreams, and I think that's largely because I worry too much about trying to "get it right" in some sense rather than just enjoying it and achieving lucidity in the way that works for me (increased awareness, NOT with endless alarms that prevent me from sleeping at all!), and this hadn't occurred to me until reading all these posts.

A couple of questions/requests:

Could you list any threads etc. that you think have a similar tone/content to this one - relatively unusual but valuable perspectives, ideas for building awareness etc. You've posted some great stuff already, but I'd like to know if you have anything else up your sleeve - though I'm also aware that I should probably not set so much store by what I read, and actually get some practice done too. But it's inspiring stuff, which is always helpful.

Secondly, I appreciated your story about the mailman. I've been semi-cultivating a sense that I can respond to my environment in ways that I wouldn't ordinarily, just as I would in a lucid dream where I realise I can do anything, not just respond to events in my habitual manner. I've been encouraging a sense of openness, such as becoming aware of times when I have irrational fears or judgments of situations or people and realising that they are not an inherent quality of reality, but my projection onto it (so I guess that's seeing both the effect that reality has on me in provoking this response, and my effect on reality by projecting and then acting upon that projection). I then try to do the opposite of what I would ordinarily (i.e. hiding/running away in either a literal or psychological sense), and thus creating some space for me to react with a bit more awareness and a sense of freedom. I try to do RCs at these times too. I'm finding the memory aspect harder to integrate into my daily life, but perhaps I could use it in these cases to check back to a few minutes ago to see how the current situation/sensations occurred, and look ahead to see what my likely response would be and what other possibilities there are? Do you do anything like this on a regular basis, and do you have any criticisms or anything you would add?

Hope that made sense, it's 2.30 am here so I should probably stop typing right about... now.

When do I hit super saiyan 2?

Welcome, branestawm!

Originally Posted by branestawm

Thanks for this thread - I'm really, really glad that I stumbled upon it so soon after joining DV. I haven't had many lucid dreams, and I think that's largely because I worry too much about trying to "get it right" in some sense rather than just enjoying it and achieving lucidity in the way that works for me (increased awareness, NOT with endless alarms that prevent me from sleeping at all!), and this hadn't occurred to me until reading all these posts.

Then I'm very glad you found the thread!

A couple of questions/requests:

Could you list any threads etc. that you think have a similar tone/content to this one - relatively unusual but valuable perspectives, ideas for building awareness etc. You've posted some great stuff already, but I'd like to know if you have anything else up your sleeve - though I'm also aware that I should probably not set so much store by what I read, and actually get some practice done too. But it's inspiring stuff, which is always helpful.

Unfortunately I don't keep very good track of threads here, so I'm not sure what help I can be.

A couple of threads worth viewing (similar is a difficult term, I think, and the creators of these threads might disagree) are Lidybug's Clear Light Perspective thread or Sivason's Dream Yoga class at DVA. Also, you might check out my own WILD class at DVA, as it is more about the state of mind that causes WILD rather than any particular technique, and an old thread of mine called A Treatise on Proof, which might carry some interesting information and offer a helpful perspective to someone new at these forums.

A few wise contributors to whom you might consider paying attention (in no particular order): Mzzkc, Zoth, Shadowofwind, Gab, Dutchraptor, Ctharlhie, Darkmatters. OpheliaBlue, and Sivason. this group covers a solid gamut of experience here, they all are more interested in truth than spectacle, squarely grasp the fundamentals, and their stuff is worth looking at. There are of course many more good people here, and I apologize to those who I left out, but if they're good and you stay here long enough, branestawm, you'll find 'em!

Secondly, I appreciated your story about the mailman. I've been semi-cultivating a sense that I can respond to my environment in ways that I wouldn't ordinarily, just as I would in a lucid dream where I realise I can do anything, not just respond to events in my habitual manner. I've been encouraging a sense of openness, such as becoming aware of times when I have irrational fears or judgments of situations or people and realising that they are not an inherent quality of reality, but my projection onto it (so I guess that's seeing both the effect that reality has on me in provoking this response, and my effect on reality by projecting and then acting upon that projection). I then try to do the opposite of what I would ordinarily (i.e. hiding/running away in either a literal or psychological sense), and thus creating some space for me to react with a bit more awareness and a sense of freedom. I try to do RCs at these times too. I'm finding the memory aspect harder to integrate into my daily life, but perhaps I could use it in these cases to check back to a few minutes ago to see how the current situation/sensations occurred, and look ahead to see what my likely response would be and what other possibilities there are? Do you do anything like this on a regular basis, and do you have any criticisms or anything you would add?

[I just reread this section and see that my words below do not answer your question. I think what I wrote is still relevant, though, so I'm leaving it up. I've more closely answered your question, I think, a little further on. I hope you'll bear with me!]

No, I don't do that, and don't recommend doing that. It's one thing to remember, and to wonder at your interaction with reality, but it's another thing altogether to investigate the cause and effect of the things you do. That's not a bad practice in general, but it won't be helpful to your LD'ing practice.

Why? Because examination of your actions and their results leads you to add information to the places you just were, and the things you just did. Indeed, it encourages it -- that's pretty much what intellectualism is. When you add information or make inferences, thoughtful as they may be, to your actions that go beyond the simple observation of where you just were and what you were just doing, and then take the larger (but again logically predictable) step of predicting upcoming effects from current cause, you run the risk of creating artificial expectations and intentions, which, when combined with your carefully adjusted memories, will set your mind in a place that would make getting lucid and staying lucid very difficult.

It would be difficult because with this exercise you're literally manufacturing -- right or wrong -- a course of events, and setting a mood in your mind that this is the right thing to do. So, come dreamtime, your dreaming mind will happily oblige this mood by creating schemata that come chock full of examination, cause and effect, and well-structured explanations of where you are, where you just were, and where you'll be in a moment. I think the last thing you want is a dream schema like this, because you will have a very hard time breaking yourself away from the very sensible logic your provided by your dreaming mind.

In other words, it's better to keep the RRC simple, and bound to simple wonder about your immediate condition. Remember for instance that that you just gave the mailman the time of day, but don't get too involved in why you did it, what the mailman really felt (which yo can't know), and how cheering him can and will effect your actions later. Better just to acknowledge that you did it, and move on. The RRC is more about appreciation than examination, I think, and it is so for the direct purpose of appreciating your dream and the participation of your Self in it.

This action, by the way, doesn't seem a great method of improving memory either, I think, because, again, you're doing more creating than remembering.

Now to actually answer your question: In all honesty, I don't consider that mailman story to represent me choosing to do the opposite of my normal actions (though it was), but more representing me doing something nice to a person who needed attention.

It's also very important, in self-awareness-land, to be true to yourself. That openness that you mention is a very good thing, and very important, but it must be honest. To get into a habit of doing things that are opposite of the things you think you do opens some doors to intellectualism and second-guessing that might not be very helpful both to correctly appreciating your self-awareness, and also to holding onto that self-awareness in a dream. Indeed, doing the opposite, especially (and oddly, I guess) with an open mind, leads you to create personas of your self that might not exist, and perhaps shouldn't exist; instead of heightening your self-awareness, creating new personas only muddles it. And, of course, what is an artificial persona but a waking-life dream character? So, this action might just create expectations that convince your dreaming mind that a DC "you" can and should trump the actual "you." Not good for lucidity, I think!

Instead of doing the opposite, I suggest you do what you think is right, and notice yourself doing so -- even if it's something you've done a thousand times before. The action of realizing that you're doing the right thing should be enough to fire up your introspection without needing to invent whole new, often counter-intuitive things to do. And, at those times when you want to run away, but you know the right thing to do is stand and face an issue, you'll fluidly discover (rather than artificially define) that doing the right thing is the opposite of what you normally do, which is a good thing. Taking this approach I think will also help you in "...creating some space for me to react with a bit more awareness and a sense of freedom."

So no, I would shy away from adding so much to the RRC, and, for the reasons I listed before I understood better what you were asking, I suggest you try to keep the RRC as pure as possible, without filling it with stuff that isn't there.

tl;dr: It's better to keep your introspection as clear as possible, without adding explanation or change to your past, present, or future behavior. Do what you think is right, and pay attention to what you did, what you're doing, and what you will do -- but try not to mess with it... artificially redefine your Self in a dream, and your dreaming mind will likely boot your manufactured self right out of the dream!

I sure hope that made sense, given the confusing way I presented it.

Originally Posted by fOrceez

When do I hit super saiyan 2?

I guess right after you download the cheat that gets you the power-up!

I had to google that bad boy; my knowledge of video games pretty much ends with Tempest.

But, to be serious for a moment, and in light of my last post, you might be careful about basing your personal "power-ups" on characters created by someone else. The energy and enlightenment you earn from a Self-inspired "power-up" might be very different (and probably far more "energetic") than one described in a pop-culture game.

Now here's the real caution: if you build your expectations around a Dragon Ball Z creation, you might not only be very confused when the event actually happens, but you might overlook or dismiss it altogether because your personal experience doesn't match the one published in the video game.

Just a thought.