Thread: Lucid Dreaming Fundamentals -- With Q & A

Originally Posted by Sageous

I agree -- many of my most "memorable," and lengthy, dreams were NLD's. I'm not trying to sell NLD's short; I'm just trying to point out that we're wired to forget them, though not necessarily wired to forget LD's.

I didn't mean to disparage NLD's, sorry!



I'm glad you pointed that out. I think I left that method of recall out of my answer above because trying to focus on recall the night before (or any auto-suggestion tactic, for that matter) has never worked for me, though I tried diligently dozens if not hundreds of times. I think I'm broken in that department! I guess I skipped it because I just didn't like it; shame on me for forgetting, because it is an effective tool for recall.

Xanous: if you haven't tried it yet, consider RareCola's post. "Planning" recall before sleep does work well for many, so it might be worth a try. Unless you're like me, but you can't know that until after trying!

I think the auto-suggestion methods fail for a lot of people because they don't properly prepare. I was talking about this in the Intro Class IRC chat the other day. Many people take on auto-suggestion the same way they take on mantras. Auto-suggestion is a bit different, you really need to drum the intention into your sub-conscious, which is only possible after first clearing and relaxing your mind. You need to add in visualisation (picturing yourself waking up, having great recall, and writing it in your journal), including incubating the feeling of a great dream ending and visualising yourself fading through into waking life, recalling it.

I've seen so many cases of people just laying down in bed and repeating auto-suggestion as they fall asleep, that simply doesn't work! You need to be in a better, more intentional mindset. You don't even need to do it as you fall asleep, that's more of a mantra thing. Doing it before sleep is good enough.

Originally Posted by RareCola

I think the auto-suggestion methods fail for a lot of people because they don't properly prepare. I was talking about this in the Intro Class IRC chat the other day. Many people take on auto-suggestion the same way they take on mantras. Auto-suggestion is a bit different, you really need to drum the intention into your sub-conscious, which is only possible after first clearing and relaxing your mind. You need to add in visualisation (picturing yourself waking up, having great recall, and writing it in your journal), including incubating the feeling of a great dream ending and visualising yourself fading through into waking life, recalling it.

I've seen so many cases of people just laying down in bed and repeating auto-suggestion as they fall asleep, that simply doesn't work! You need to be in a better, more intentional mindset. You don't even need to do it as you fall asleep, that's more of a mantra thing. Doing it before sleep is good enough.

I used this last night and saw an big improvement in recall. Thanks RC!

^^ Go ahead and back off for a time, Xanous.

It would do you no good to wear yourself down, because this both makes it harder to practice self-awareness, and also makes you begin to resent the work -- which makes it real easy to drop later.

So I suggest you ease up, mind your priorities (your job matters, after all), and let your mind and body make some room over time for all the extra space heightened self-awareness demands.

Doing quick exercises might sound like a good idea, and it is, if you are able to give shortened RRC's the attention they deserve. However, if you find yourself just giving "lip service" to the exercises, you might consider just taking a break and literally scheduling time you can fit in a proper effort.

Bottom line: Relax! Life is long, the LD's ain't going anywhere without you; so there's no sense knocking yourself out...

Ah thanks Sageous. That sounds like very good advice. I tent to over do it I guess.

Let me say I've read a fair bit of posts around here, but I'm having a particular issue with "coming up" with a rality while entering WILD

I've had no more than two lucid dreams I can remember, and one was accidentally a WILD after watching Waking Life.

Ever since then I've had several instances where I manage to get into sleep paralysis, sometimes start feeling weightless, a lot of buzzing and almost like a white noise image. When this happens, my heart starts going and I'm thinking "here it comes!" but I never manage to flow blissfully into dreams. It will happen for 3-10 seconds, then stop, and I kind of wake up. Sometimes many times a night. I remember last night being frustrated that it wouldn't happen so I kept moving and changing positions when the SP would fade in and then out.

It's like I'm unable to build a reality. I'm stuck thinking "ok where do I want to be? be quick, think of something" And when I do, it barely comes into play. Like a very vague attempt at crossing over.

My first one convinced me this has to be done again. I floated up from my bed and passed through my window, flew around on top of my driveway and around the city. It was amazing. But I haven't been able to get back there.

First, welcome.

Now:

I think you may have read a few too many posts. WILD, and lucid dreaming in general, is not about all that "noise," like SP, buzzing, etc, regardless of the importance breathlessly attached to them on these forums. LD'ing is also certainly not about "coming up" with realities, either. Perhaps you meant something else in that phrase, but LD's are still "just" dreams. You are not creating a new reality, and need not feel obliged to do so. Indeed, even if you meant simply helping to form a dream scenario of your choice, you can fail that and still find yourself in a dream. You are not required to make the dream; it will come eventually, naturally. Be patient, especially during WILD.

Instead of reading all those posts, I suggest you carefully read one of the DV classes on LD'ing. I have a class on WILD in this forum, but you should also read OpheliaBlue's Introduction class and Hukif and Gab's DILD class, as these courses will introduce you to the process of LD'ing with a little more emphasis on the fundamentals, and less hyperventilating about the noise.

I hope that helped; good luck in your quest; regardless of the route you choose, the final destination will have been worth the effort.

Is it possible that with a sleeping mask you could see your HI
A lot better and that it could become quite a good anchor for some?

Sure. Especially if you're sleeping in a room with possibly distracting light -- light is the enemy of sleep, and the better you can block it out, the better your chances of reaching your dreams undisturbed. I suppose the absence of light might help you to better "see" you HI as well, but I'm not too sure about that (and I also see no reason to amplify HI input anyway, as that could be a distraction).

Also, if you only use it while attempting LD's, the presence of a mask on your face might heighten your expectations, which would be a very good thing as well.

So yeah, a sleep mask might not be the answer to all things LD, but it could certainly be a good anchor for some.

If you in the middle of the night decide that you want to wild.

The first thing you do is to try and sleep the same as you always do but this time you put a few "gaps" in your awereness where you take a sec to remember what your trying to do. With time could this be a useful type of an anchor?

About the mask. Even if i only use it at some. Occasions isnt there a risk of me getting used to wearing it?
By then would "the presence of a mask" go away and just that be a loss?

Originally Posted by Conanboy139

If you in the middle of the night decide that you want to wild. The first thing you do is to try and sleep the same as you always do but this time you put a few "gaps" in your awareness where you take a sec to remember what your trying to do. With time could this be a useful type of an anchor?

Sure. But you would do just as well, if not better, if you simply repeated a mantra to keep you focused. Mantras are pretty good anchors, in cases like this.

About the mask. Even if i only use it at some. Occasions isnt there a risk of me getting used to wearing it?
By then would "the presence of a mask" go away and just that be a loss?

Again, sure; you always run the risk of having your chosen tools become just another facet of your expected night's sleep. This is why changing routines or focal points (like switching mantras, for instance), is a good idea. That said, keep in mind that that mask's primary function is to keep out light... that will always be helpful. Also, its presence might serve as a cue reminding you that you're supposed to be dreaming at least for a little while, so trying it out wouldn't hurt. If you get used to it, then move on to something else. Not much of a loss, I think.

Thank you Seamus, i might get a sleep mask ive been thinking about the novadreamer or dreamwaver aid for ques.
Even if you happen to fall asleep they could wake you
Up, activating your brain.
But i will check some relaxition techniques. Because i get all excited by repeating my mantra.
I have to take heavy breaths to prevent my heart from going crazy.

This is the most helpful post I've read on the subject of lucid dreaming and I have only read up to the 3legged stool analogy. I was discouraged, but now the importance of recall and self awareness is so much more apparent and vivid after that analogy that I can see the methods in a whole new light. I don't know if the message I'm attempting to convey right now is coming across properly, but simply, this has made my understanding of lucid dreaming that much clearer. Thank you (:

^^ And that is exactly why I started this thread!

Thanks for sharing, for reading, and for listening...

Ok, I have a question... What does it feel like to enter a dream? Like, what exactly do I do? I've gotten past REM-A, but after that I don't know exactly what to do?

^^ You're going to hate this answer, Brent, but here you go:

You have to be there. What the initial "ah-ha" moment of realizing you're in a dream feels different to each person entering this new experience.

I can tell you how I felt -- amazed, in awe, excited, and deeply aware of the potential for exploring this new world. Others have felt much different.

That's all emotional feelings, of course. Physically, I honestly don't remember what my first LD "felt" like, as it's been a long time and the physical part of all this is fairly meaningless to me. There is no official "physical change parameter" to look for, regardless of what people might tell you on these forums. At best I can say that you will know that you are "present" in your dream, and might have a distant awareness of your physical body, if you are close to waking when you have your lucid dream (which happens a lot).

From you're question it seems you might also be looking for some technique for continuing your lucid dream attempt. If that's the case, then I suggest you read some of the classes in DV Academy, , including OpheliaBlue'sIntro Class, Gab's DILD class, or my WILD class. I highly recommend that you do not try to learn to lucid dream based solely on conversations in these forums, as they tend to carry much unnecessary or incorrect information, and heading bad advice (like having to "get past" REM-A, whatever that means) only slows your progress.

I hope this helped, though I have a feeling it might not have!

Good luck with your efforts!

Ok, I've read your WILD tutorial twice over and will read the other tutorials you provided. So what your saying is that it's similar to that "HOLY CRAP, I'M IN A DREAM!" feeling in DILD, right? Like I won't need to RC or anything, I'll just know?

Originally Posted by Brent1938

Ok, I've read your WILD tutorial twice over and will read the other tutorials you provided. So what your saying is that it's similar to that "HOLY CRAP, I'M IN A DREAM!" feeling in DILD, right? Like I won't need to RC or anything, I'll just know?

Yup. You got it!

In fact, except in "accidental" DILD's, I find RC's, and RRC's, much more useful in waking-life self-awareness practice than they are in dreams.

Thanks, I appreciate the help and advice.

Wow Sageous, this class has really taken off! I sort of faded from the site around the time this was just getting started, but I do believe the best thing I did when I was a mod was to talk you into doing this!

I'm renewing my efforts to achieve lucidity again, and I've read through all your lessons. This seems like a really great no-nonsense approach, and I especially like the focus on mental prep. As I was reading I wanted to start right away to establish new habits of self awareness, but one problem - if I think back over what I've done for the last hour or so it was mostly just sitting at the computer visiting various sites and reading your tutorial! But I came up with something that I think might work in that kind of situation - tell me if I'm on target with this or not.

What I would do every 10 minutes or so (approx) was to try to guess what time it is without looking, then glance up at the clock to see how close I am. It involves remembering what time it was when last you looked and trying to figure out how much time has passed, so I'm thinking that's a good effort in self-awareness, or am I wrong?

My thinking is, this could be a good approach for those times when you've been doing nothing but sit at the computer or watch TV - cause otherwise what have you got to be aware of? "Let's see - House was a total dick to everybody but he ended up saving the pregnant nun's diabetic baby but in the process lost his bet with Wilson.. " (wait - actually now that I think about it, that actually could work too.. ).

Anyway, let me know if either of these would work for those times when you're just veggin out in front of a monitor rather than actually doing anything to be aware of?

Darkmatters:

Originally Posted by Darkmatters

Wow Sageous, this class has really taken off! I sort of faded from the site around the time this was just getting started, but I do believe the best thing I did when I was a mod was to talk you into doing this!

Many thanks for convincing me to somnapontificate for a hundred-odd posts; it was an interesting time for me... I'm not sure if I made a difference, given for instance the continuing reign of SP as the crown jewel/holy grail/ultimate goal on the DV boards, but it was an interesting time.

Now...

I'm renewing my efforts to achieve lucidity again, and I've read through all your lessons. This seems like a really great no-nonsense approach, and I especially like the focus on mental prep. As I was reading I wanted to start right away to establish new habits of self awareness, but one problem - if I think back over what I've done for the last hour or so it was mostly just sitting at the computer visiting various sites and reading your tutorial! But I came up with something that I think might work in that kind of situation - tell me if I'm on target with this or not.

What I would do every 10 minutes or so (approx) was to try to guess what time it is without looking, then glance up at the clock to see how close I am. It involves remembering what time it was when last you looked and trying to figure out how much time has passed, so I'm thinking that's a good effort in self-awareness, or am I wrong?

My thinking is, this could be a good approach for those times when you've been doing nothing but sit at the computer or watch TV - cause otherwise what have you got to be aware of? "Let's see - House was a total dick to everybody but he ended up saving the pregnant nun's diabetic baby but in the process lost his bet with Wilson.. " (wait - actually now that I think about it, that actually could work too.. ).

Anyway, let me know if either of these would work for those times when you're just veggin out in front of a monitor rather than actually doing anything to be aware of?

Not quite on target, I think.

First, carefully read DragonMaster21's post above, as it succinctly and accurately answers your question as well as I ever could...almost brought a tear to my jaundiced eye.

But of course I cannot leave it at that:

The RRC is meant to be a moment of introspection, of really wondering about where you are right now, where you just were, and where you'll be shortly; it's a moment's pause to reflect on your impact on your immediate reality, and its on you.

But you know all that. What an RRC is not is a rote exercise, like the RC, to train your mind in a mnemonic sort of way to test your state of consciousness. No, this is a check of your "presence," and an attempt to consciously acknowledge the significance of that presence.

An RRC should span just a few minutes in either direction -- don't try to look at your last or next hour, five minutes will do, and for God's sake don't do one of these things every ten minutes; you'll either beat the exercise to meaninglessness in a matter of days or drive yourself crazy; I don't think either of those doors is a good choice! Think about doing an RRC every hour or two, or whenever you happen to think of it. Should you never think of it, then make up an artificial reminder schedule.

Now here's the funny bit that was actually all I meant to say: If you're doing something "empty" or tedious like staring at a screen, you'll likely not bother or remember to do an RRC anyway, and that's okay. But should you happen to remember, take DragonMaster's advice and wonder if maybe there was something unique you were just doing, are doing, or will be doing shortly. More important, remember that doing something as reflexively mundane as, say, attending my class online, involves some amazingly big stuff, reality-wise.

Think about it: you might just be reading and tapping keys, but you're doing it while connected to a system currently being used by a billion other souls, all of them inserting their consciousnesses into it and extracting your consciousness from it, in some small (or possibly very big) way. Not only that, but right now you're feeding your head with information gleaned from a virtually bottomless well of human knowledge. And in a few minutes you might add a bit of your own unique knowledge or experience to the mix. Every key you hit makes the slightest difference to something, somewhere. In other words, metaphysically speaking, your interface with reality during even the most mundane moments online is extremely impressive; try to consider this, and really wonder about it.

This might all sound like a bunch of hyperbole -- because it is -- but that doesn't mean it doesn't matter. The RRC is all about self-awareness, and your "self" is always existent no matter how empty the places it just visited might seem on the surface. If you can master identifying your position in your local reality (even if that identification is totally fictitious), then come dream-time you'll have a much better time holding onto that self-awareness because you'll have an easier time understanding the nature of your local dream-reality... namely that it's all you.

I hope that made sense ... the RRC, or rather the philosophy behind it, can be most helpful in not only getting you through WILD but, more importantly, making your LD more meaningful. Try to remember that it is not a technique, but a momentary state of mind.

tl;dr: No, though that 10-minute exercise is a good mnemonic exercise, and will definitely help your awareness hard-wiring, which is always a good thing, and it might help you with your sense of subjective time, it won't do much for your self-awareness. The difference, in terms of LD'ing (and life in general) is critical: There is always something to consider, no matter how empty your moments might seem at first glance. And remember, don't look back or ahead a whole hour; it might not be healthy!

Let me know if I confused, overstated, or said something that doesn't jibe with my class (I haven't been there in months).

(Just what I think )
I think that what you are doing will work. Perhaps though, instead of just trying to remember what was on the computer screen, or what happened, add a little bit of yourself into it. For example, maybe when you try and guess the time, also try and remember what you were doing when you last checked the time. Were your hands on the keyboard? Was your right foot crossed over your left food? Did you itch your ear? How were you affecting what was around you, and how are you doing so now? Maybe just a little bit of self-awareness into it, similar to the Reverse Reality Checks

Ok, I think I was confusing your technique with a different awareness technique, where you're supposed to occasionally stop and think about how you got where you are, remember the sequence of events leading all the way from getting up in the morning to where you are now.

After what you guys have said, I went back and re-read your section on self awareness, and I think I have a better idea now of what you mean. It's a moment of feeling your cosmic connectedness to the universe... a sort of "I'm Here - and I'm ALIVE!!!" - in fact pretty much the same feeling you get the moment you become lucid, right? Maybe sort of exercising your mind to feel that lucidity.

Lol and the only reason I was doing it every few minutes last night - well 2 reasons. 1st just the thing everybody does when they first decide to try a new lucidity technique - at first they overdo the hell out of it and RC every few minutes, ya know? And #2, I realized it would be a lot easier to get a feel for how much time had probably passed if I checked every few minutes - trust me, today I only did it 6 or 7 times (and my estimates were a lot farther off then they were yesterday!). But yeah, anyway, I know that's the wrong way now, so forget that.

Real quick:

Originally Posted by Darkmatters

... After what you guys have said, I went back and re-read your section on self awareness, and I think I have a better idea now of what you mean. It's a moment of feeling your cosmic connectedness to the universe... a sort of "I'm Here - and I'm ALIVE!!!" - in fact pretty much the same feeling you get the moment you become lucid, right? Maybe sort of exercising your mind to feel that lucidity.

Not so much "feeling your cosmic connectedness to the universe... a sort of "I'm Here - and I'm ALIVE!!!" " as understanding that you are a part of your local reality, you influence it, and it influences you.

Dreams are about here and now; not the entire universe... try to keep the RRC's focused so that you don't find yourself trying to see something of universal importance every time you do one (unless you're the Dali Lama, that likely wouldn't be possible). In a sense you're prepping your self-awareness for what follows the "ah-ha" moment of an LD, so that you are ready to understand where you are, and what you can do. And BTW, remember that in WILD there theoretically is no "ah-ha" moment, because you're not supposed to lose touch with your self-awareness.

[Edit: I just realized that my hyperbole about all those souls you connect with on the web might have misdirected a bit... I wasn't thinking cosmically; sorry if that seemed a mixed message.]

Lol and the only reason I was doing it every few minutes last night - well 2 reasons. 1st just the thing everybody does when they first decide to try a new lucidity technique - at first they overdo the hell out of it and RC every few minutes, ya know? And #2, I realized it would be a lot easier to get a feel for how much time had probably passed if I checked every few minutes - trust me, today I only did it 6 or 7 times (and my estimates were a lot farther off then they were yesterday!). But yeah, anyway, I know that's the wrong way now, so forget that.

Okay, I forgot!

Ok, that makes more sense. Good, because thinking about a cosmic connectedness to the universe hurts my brain!

Your local reality - Ok I get it - because in a dream that's all there is. So, something like - if I glance around a room in my house I can see my impact in it in pretty much every detail - I brought the furniture here and put it where it is, and all the crap sitting around (that I should probably put away properly one of these days) is there also because I put it there.

Originally Posted by Darkmatters

Your local reality - Ok I get it - because in a dream that's all there is. So, something like - if I glance around a room in my house I can see my impact in it in pretty much every detail - I brought the furniture here and put it where it is, and all the crap sitting around (that I should probably put away properly one of these days) is there also because I put it there.

That's more like it, especially if you've truly got nothin' when you think about where you were a few minutes ago.

Thanks for playing!