Breaking illusions:Sleep paralysis [WILD help (method)]

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Originally Posted by ollei

Well I haven't had much progress with visualizations either. But I feel that tactile sensations have often helped me visualize. That's why I was interested in this thread to begin with. I've gotten the impression that visualizations are very important to achieve WILD. Using some kind of tactile memory have helped me build up a dream scene. I've experienced some kind of synergistic effect, The tactile sensations enables me to visualize as I get an overall "feel" of the scene.

But being a crappy visualizer and all I was thinking that maybe the tactile sensations would do the jobs just as good as any visualization would. I've had several non lucid dreams in which I don't have any sense of sight, everything is black, but my tactile sensations are at an all time high.

The real question I guess is: can you build a dream scene out of tactile sensations only? Would this be enough?

Adraw I understand if you don't have the answers to my questions, maybe we just have to find out for ourself :)

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For more information, please read this topic if you havent already done that:

http://www.dreamviews.com/community/...ad.php?t=61681

Shady gave hers own tricks and arby made a good point. Even if it is hard to understand, it shows, how visualization really works.
Let me take a quick summary from what i understood from this topic:

• It seems that stimulating one sense is not enough to create lifelike visualization
• It seems that movement adds life to visualizations

yeah there is much more information hidden within, but maybe this might open new horizonts also for you.

You sayd, you are creappy visualizer. Tell me about it. But as i am progressing further, it doesnt seem that the visualization process itself is crappy. But our ability to concentrate is not as good developed and needs practice.

I oft find myself within visualization, and deep within falling asleep, where i am conscious but am not able to change any aspect of what i percieve. I try to change the scene... it doesnt work. Sometimes i try to speak... it doesnt work. Then i blend with the dream and fall asleep. And the same goes with visualization itself. It seems my own wilpower is not clear enough to force the brain doing what i wish.

may i ask you a question? What happens, when you are starting to blend with the "scene" which you create. Arent you starting to lose yourself?

Thanx for responses.

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Originally Posted by ollei

But being a crappy visualizer and all I was thinking that maybe the tactile sensations would do the jobs just as good as any visualization would. I've had several non lucid dreams in which I don't have any sense of sight, everything is black, but my tactile sensations are at an all time high.

The real question I guess is: can you build a dream scene out of tactile sensations only? Would this be enough?

Adraw I understand if you don't have the answers to my questions, maybe we just have to find out for ourself :)

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I have become lucid from only tactile sensations. On more than one occasion I have literally walked my way from darkness into a vivid dream scene.

In fact some of my early WILDS were without any kind of visuals. Back then I was doing a lot of tactile imagination exercises and not a lot of visualizations as I wasn't as good at visualizations. (One person earlier in this thread mentioned using memories as a means to aid in tactile imagination exercises. I for one believe this is a useful technique as so much of what a person imaginations is really just a construction based off of past events in life. So working out a routine of touching things right before attempting to become lucid and then recalling those sensations and imagining them again while they are still fresh in one's mind is a useful exercise. I believe this helps to build a more stabilized dream body.)

A problem with sightless lucid dreams though is that they leave a person doubting whether it was a real lucid dream, especially for a person who isn't as experienced enough.

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Originally Posted by adraw

Finding the sweet spot... Hard as hell. But also a lot of fun. May I ask you how you increase the detail in more detail? Please. Even if it is hard to formulate, try to.

Thx.

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It was a long time ago, and thinking about it now, it is really hard to express! but I'll try. I thought I got the idea from EWLD but looking through it briefly I can't see it mentioned. That time really stands out in my memory...

I must have been really relaxed but also alert, as I can't do it right now, naturally. I think the crucial thing when it happened was recreating the mental feeling, the atmosphere of the place. You know how every single place has a certain feel to you? A feeling which is impossible to put into words.

Right now, every place we have ever been to conjures up a unique feeling when we go to it and we should be able to remember that mental sensation of being there. In my opinion that particular feeling associated to that particular place is mainly linked to time, not the place. Therefore imagining a place we have been to recently, should be far easier. Some memories will be hard-wired into our brain, but we should be able to relate more and better visualise a recent memory. Maybe that's why I'm unable to re-create the same experience with that particular memory because the memory was from several years ago.

It may help if the particular memory is something we don’t have any negative feelings towards because we may subconsciously try to avoid re-creating that. The best sort of memory may be a completely neutral one, for example standing in a lift, because we may be more aware, we are neither lost in happiness nor sadness. Although we may feel neutral towards, and more aware of, that particular memory, the surrounding period and emotions of our lives may help to pinpoint and visualise it.

So as you’ve gathered I think the feeling and atmosphere of the time and place was the crucial factor for me at that time, and the details flowed from that.

I’m sure I did try to consciously increase the detail though, and I’m sure I was focused on the buttons in the lift. It was a big button pad. I remember I used to have difficulty remembering which floor to go to! So I would check it carefully. My best guess is that I focused on the atmosphere, remembering how the walls looked, then the button pad, and then focused down onto a single button, held the focus and it just sprung from there. Almost like peeling away layers. There was definitely some effort of willpower involved on my part, but not a great deal.

Actually, the reason it became more detailed, lifelike, could have been simply because I crossed into a dream with awareness, by holding my focus on something - the surroundings. But the root cause of it all was definitely starting with the feeling/atmosphere/emotion of the place.

I tried!

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Originally Posted by Semja

It was a long time ago, and thinking about it now, it is really hard to express! but I'll try. I thought I got the idea from EWLD but looking through it briefly I can't see it mentioned. That time really stands out in my memory...

I must have been really relaxed but also alert, as I can't do it right now, naturally. I think the crucial thing when it happened was recreating the mental feeling, the atmosphere of the place. You know how every single place has a certain feel to you? A feeling which is impossible to put into words.

Right now, every place we have ever been to conjures up a unique feeling when we go to it and we should be able to remember that mental sensation of being there. In my opinion that particular feeling associated to that particular place is mainly linked to time, not the place. Therefore imagining a place we have been to recently, should be far easier. Some memories will be hard-wired into our brain, but we should be able to relate more and better visualise a recent memory. Maybe that's why I'm unable to re-create the same experience with that particular memory because the memory was from several years ago.

It may help if the particular memory is something we don’t have any negative feelings towards because we may subconsciously try to avoid re-creating that. The best sort of memory may be a completely neutral one, for example standing in a lift, because we may be more aware, we are neither lost in happiness nor sadness. Although we may feel neutral towards, and more aware of, that particular memory, the surrounding period and emotions of our lives may help to pinpoint and visualise it.

So as you’ve gathered I think the feeling and atmosphere of the time and place was the crucial factor for me at that time, and the details flowed from that.

I’m sure I did try to consciously increase the detail though, and I’m sure I was focused on the buttons in the lift. It was a big button pad. I remember I used to have difficulty remembering which floor to go to! So I would check it carefully. My best guess is that I focused on the atmosphere, remembering how the walls looked, then the button pad, and then focused down onto a single button, held the focus and it just sprung from there. Almost like peeling away layers. There was definitely some effort of willpower involved on my part, but not a great deal.

Actually, the reason it became more detailed, lifelike, could have been simply because I crossed into a dream with awareness, by holding my focus on something - the surroundings. But the root cause of it all was definitely starting with the feeling/atmosphere/emotion of the place.

I tried!

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Atmosphere of the place, details, attempts. WILD seems to be all about our own imagination. As imagination is directly dependent on memory, we have to be good at recalling. As the images start to take over, we must show our skills at passive observation and concentration at the same time. This is what other wild guides often suggest.

This thread was mostly about imagination and concentration, I cannot omit passive observation mentioned in other guides. There are many guides talking about being passive observers, when the imagery takes over. It seems that to kick off the imagery, we can use technique I mentioned above. But it is contradictory to passive observer stance, at least at first sight. There must be something important on this, becouse technique I used was never successfull becouse I lost awareness. And this is the question..

When I succeed with creating some kind of dream scene, should I switch to passive observation? If so, when is the right time for that?

I would like to say thank you to the author of this post.
I usually do not read others techniques because, well...
it's "Their" technique and it doesnt seem like it'd work for "Me".
I read this post and I honestly felt as if you were talking to me.
I've been tryin to WILD for the last 2 months now, with no luck at all.
As you continued to talk it only became more significant, I have a desk in my room and i've experienced every symptom you mentioned, and I've tried everything in that exact order.
Thank you so much i'm definitely gonna try this tonight.
DEFINITELY.
Thanks again!!

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Originally Posted by adraw

Atmosphere of the place, details, attempts. WILD seems to be all about our own imagination. As imagination is directly dependent on memory, we have to be good at recalling. As the images start to take over, we must show our skills at passive observation and concentration at the same time. This is what other wild guides often suggest.

This thread was mostly about imagination and concentration, I cannot omit passive observation mentioned in other guides. There are many guides talking about being passive observers, when the imagery takes over. It seems that to kick off the imagery, we can use technique I mentioned above. But it is contradictory to passive observer stance, at least at first sight. There must be something important on this, becouse technique I used was never successfull becouse I lost awareness. And this is the question..

When I succeed with creating some kind of dream scene, should I switch to passive observation? If so, when is the right time for that?

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For me the passive observation comes into play when my mind already has enough energy and momentum and is not quite but up and going with all kinds of threads anyway. In such case I am passively observing what is happening and pictures/sounds/sensations might arise on their own. In such a case I can use that to start a dream.

On the flip side, sometimes my mind is quiet or in some kind of disposition that is not ideal for LD. In which case I can use visualization techniques and imagination to figuratively speaking get it primed up for a LD.

Most of the time it is some combination of the two.

I also agree that in a dream a person can use passive observation and concentration. In the physical world a person can just do something, but in the dream world, the rules are different. The same way to do something in the dream world is not the same way to do something in the physical world. This combination of passive observation and concentration is a working guide to getting things done in the dream world.

I would say passive observation and concentration might be a bit vague definitions though. I know this sounds weird but a working formula for me is "passive positive observation" or more simply allowing what is happening ot happen and being okay with the situation plus "hopeful urges." I person might call these hopeful urges concentration but I kind of consider them more like wishes or wishing something to happen. This is not a great way of explaining it but comes close. I think a tricky thing for me starting off was how much passive positive observation in ratio to positive wishes. If the ratios are wrong then weird things can happen or not happen at all like a LD when a person knows the are LDing but can't do anything.

Hope this helps. Sometimes I am long winded I think.

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Originally Posted by Something Else

For me the passive observation comes into play when my mind already has enough energy and momentum and is not quite but up and going with all kinds of threads anyway. In such case I am passively observing what is happening and pictures/sounds/sensations might arise on their own. In such a case I can use that to start a dream.

On the flip side, sometimes my mind is quiet or in some kind of disposition that is not ideal for LD. In which case I can use visualization techniques and imagination to figuratively speaking get it primed up for a LD.

Most of the time it is some combination of the two.

I also agree that in a dream a person can use passive observation and concentration. In the physical world a person can just do something, but in the dream world, the rules are different. The same way to do something in the dream world is not the same way to do something in the physical world. This combination of passive observation and concentration is a working guide to getting things done in the dream world.

I would say passive observation and concentration might be a bit vague definitions though. I know this sounds weird but a working formula for me is "passive positive observation" or more simply allowing what is happening ot happen and being okay with the situation plus "hopeful urges." I person might call these hopeful urges concentration but I kind of consider them more like wishes or wishing something to happen. This is not a great way of explaining it but comes close. I think a tricky thing for me starting off was how much passive positive observation in ratio to positive wishes. If the ratios are wrong then weird things can happen or not happen at all like a LD when a person knows the are LDing but can't do anything.

Hope this helps. Sometimes I am long winded I think.

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I like the idea about two starting points of LD. It really seems to be even more starting points. but thats cool. Not every technique is applyable, becouse we are not in state of mind appropriate to enter it.

So it is considerable to talk about if it is possible to transform the state of mind to the one needed to perform a technique, if it is not too tiring.

Exactly as you told. There are two distinct states. When mind feels empty and when mind feels full with new ideas. Could you please specify further what you do {and how you do it} to move from empty state into state of many thoughts?

Is state of many thoughts somehow "better" than empty state in your opinion?
THx.

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Originally Posted by adraw

I would have one question for your. What about the buzzing sound. Do you hear this kind of sound everytime? And one more question. Do you work with music? Are you composer, or DJ, or audiophile?

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I am an audiophile got my ATH-A900s headphones and etymotic er-4p ear buds. However thinking about it a bit more I've always had a very slight ringing in my ear that I almost always tune out because its always been there for as long as I can remember. I think the reason I can WILD so easily when I'm very tired is because I let my mind focus in on the ringing in my ear which becomes very loud and intense and while I'm doing that my body falls asleep since it is already 100% relaxed ready to sleep. After focusing on it for a short period of time random weird images enter my thoughts and I do a reality check letting me know I'm dreaming.

My dream journal has 2 WILD's on October 1st that occurred in the morning when I'd woken up momentarily, extremely tired and I heard that sound, focused in on it and entered a lucid dream right off the bat. I fell off the bed in my dream, checked to see if I was dreaming and the lucid ended about 60 seconds later. Quickly wrote that down, focused on the sound and went into a 2nd Wild. This one lasted about 10 minutes.

I had the exact same process happen during a nap today, October 6th. Had 1 WILD that was very short followed by a 2nd WILD that was much longer in duration. I finally learned how to teleport small objects with my mind during that 2nd wild :D broke past a new barrier I hadn't yet been able to do, quite satisfying.

I don't plan to WILD, I can only do it when I awake from a slumber where I would normally go back to sleep in 10 seconds. It takes a lot of work to get me to go to bed by default so the only times I can WILD are when my body is already 100% relaxed, all I have to do is close my eyes and wait 5 seconds and I'm back to sleep. Those are the moments where I can WILD almost at will every single time. The moments where you wake up and you can barely keep your eye-lids open you are so damn tired.

Ok I was wondering do you have to use tactile sensations to get into WILD? Well I will put it this way: Before I go to sleep I am usually daydreaming about some book I have read/changing and having fun before i go to sleep. Could I do this???

P.S I am constantly daydreaming all day
So I am pretty good at it.

You dont have to do anything, if you are not comfortable with it. The reason, why i mentioned tactile sensation was, that most newby WILDers have problem with body sensations, so its pretty helpful to substitute real body with imagined one. It also somehow helps to speed up the process of WILD. If you are a good daydreamer, some tactile imagination could help improve your daydreams too :D. Yet it is not necessary.

Ah, I noticed these visualizations too.

I was trying to WILD, but I noticed that when I daydreamed so, it was alot easier to not focus on anything.

I think you are right about the passive observance thing; I was trying to do it with passive observance after I imagined the scene. But every time I did that, I would slip out of it with a jolt, and just go back to my normal awareness.

Thanks for posting, I'll try it tonight!

adraw: some of the posts that you make are amazing. I have induced a WILD before, but only after visualizing myself standing. I will definitely try this tonight. Thanks for the post man, you rock!

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Originally Posted by firegyorgg

adraw: some of the posts that you make are amazing. I have induced a WILD before, but only after visualizing myself standing. I will definitely try this tonight. Thanks for the post man, you rock!

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Thanx to hear that. I hope, you'll be successfull in one of your next attempts.

Thanks for this guide I have had some thoughts about something like this, but now its clear to me. Im gonna try this several nights im sure it will work. :)

I find this thing about visualizing very good, it has allowed me to reach further stages of WILD than I have reached before. Although I usually fail because if I stop visualizing only for a couple of minutes, I fall asleep. So next time I won't allow myself to stop visualizing even for a short time. How long does it take for you others, before you stop visualizing and enter a dream (or some other stage)?

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Originally Posted by Drogo

I find this thing about visualizing very good, it has allowed me to reach further stages of WILD than I have reached before. Although I usually fail because if I stop visualizing only for a couple of minutes, I fall asleep. So next time I won't allow myself to stop visualizing even for a short time. How long does it take for you others, before you stop visualizing and enter a dream (or some other stage)?

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In visualisation before REM, there is one crucial factor. When your visualisation starts to become more stable, you no longer need to continue with conscious effort, after that you should concentrate more on retaining of your awareness. Becoming the center point of your visualisation. In another words, instead of trying to stabilise visualisation itself, you should stabilise yourself as conscious participant within it.

As you dont need as many mental resources to mantain visualisation itself, you can start to use some of your mindpower to become aware within your creation. As the REM progresses you can give more and more emphasis on this aspect of WILD till you are inside.

Before any method, there is one crucial thing to do. And this is to take affirmation that you will do your best within the method, may happen what happens. This also includes invoking that unmistakable feeling of being superhero, which feels like burning inside your hearth.

You will do it. I sincerely believe it.

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Originally Posted by cpnamn

Thanks for this guide I have had some thoughts about something like this, but now its clear to me. Im gonna try this several nights im sure it will work. :)

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Hope, some of the information you learned here will be of good use to you.

Bump - I believe this to be very important. Worrying and focusing on your body while attempting a WILD is a very bad thing to do.

Really detailed and helpful. Thanks!

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Originally Posted by rynkrt3

Bump - I believe this to be very important. Worrying and focusing on your body while attempting a WILD is a very bad thing to do.

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Thank you. That is exactly what was the point of my post. When you stay in your body with your thoughts, it is much
less believable, that you are in the dream world.

Thank you.
Very same day (yesterday) I read this post I had my second longest LD. And after quite long time of LD-lull so I really attribute it to this thread.
So I'm pretty stoked.
I was not concentrating too much on WILDing just play in my mind with thoughts (well, it was more like prayer to Jesus) and I slowly drifted into sleep. It was app. 00:30. At 2:10 I woke up from the LD. :)

Great. It must have been a great dream.;)