Thread: Sleep Paralysis Demystified

Ah, thanks for the clarification.

This might be a bit off-topic, but do you also know anything about NREM-dreams?

It's nice to have this concept clarified. I sensed some things weird about this in many explanations people said. For example: a guy said that in order to achieve WILD we had to pass the NREM stage being conscious. In order to do that you have to lower your consciousness to the minimum and be totally relaxed and you will feel sleep paralysis. However in another site I read that during NREM stage people may experience sleepwalk since the body is doesn't paralyses, and if you think for a moment that is completely truth. Therefore that guy is wrong, which I realized and made my head to puzzle. But now you came with that explanation and clarified all. Thanks

Thank you so much for trying to clear up the misconceptions surrounding WILD, this should be stickied at the very least.

For myself, I have never experienced 'SP' during WILD attempts, and I experience other symptoms that most DVers would associate with 'SP' very early on, things like illogical thoughts and dream imagery, while I rarely experience hypnagogic phosphenes and have never felt vibrations. People need to realise that everyone is different and there's no right way to WILD.

Thanks for the support guys. Glad you could appreciate the piece.

Originally Posted by Sandyman

Ah, thanks for the clarification.

This might be a bit off-topic, but do you also know anything about NREM-dreams?

No worries.

Dreams can happen during any stage of sleep, but I'm not sure on the actual distribution. NREM dreams tend to be less vivid than REM dreams, tending more toward the abstract.

They can pop up during WILDs and have the propensity for transitioning into REM dreams, so you might not even realize you've had one.

I haven't done a ton of research on NREM dreams outside of what's commonly known, so I'm not the best person to ask about those. But hopefully that helped a bit.

Originally Posted by Mzzkc

Barring abnormalities, sleep paralysis occurs only during the REM phase of sleep.

As such, during a normal WILD attempt, you will not experience sleep paralysis. This is because REM atonia--a fancy way of referring to full-body paralysis during REM--only triggers after REM has begun. By that point, a dream will have already formed and you’ll have lost consciousness.

Maybe I am an abnormality, but according to my experiences with SP and WILDing, this is not true. I am definitely experiencing sleep paralysis right before I transition into WILDs. At first, I start to feel minor vibrations, without paralysis. These vibrations quickly intensify and become very strong, and at this point I am completely unable to move. This is without doubt SP, as I am aware during REM atonia. It then takes a few seconds for a dream to form, and I do not lose consciousness while in REM sleep until this happens.

during a normal WILD attempt, you will not experience sleep paralysis. This is because REM atonia--a fancy way of referring to full-body paralysis during REM--only triggers after REM has begun. By that point, a dream will have already formed and you’ll have lost consciousness.

I think you are overlooking something crucial. When we WILD, we are intentionally maintaining awareness. In normal sleep, you will have lost consciousness by the time REM atonia happens. During WILD, you maintain awareness and consciousness through all stages of sleep, until a dream occurs. In cases where the dream starts in REM, you will experience sleep paralysis. It is abnormal, but that is the whole point of WILD. Since most vivid dreams happen during REM sleep, it makes sense that many people report experiencing sleep paralysis during the last stages of WILD.

REM and dreaming are not always synched up exactly. When REM hits before a dream begins, you may experience sleep paralysis. When you become overly aware of your body while already in a dream, you may bounce out into sleep paralysis.

Originally Posted by OneiroMoon

Maybe I am an abnormality, but according to my experiences with SP and WILDing, this is not true. I am definitely experiencing sleep paralysis right before I transition into WILDs. At first, I start to feel minor vibrations, without paralysis. These vibrations quickly intensify and become very strong, and at this point I am completely unable to move. This is without doubt SP, as I am aware during REM atonia. It then takes a few seconds for a dream to form, and I do not lose consciousness while in REM sleep until this happens.

Except that you're not "transitioning into WILDs." WILD is the action of initiating a LD. It is the entire thing you're doing, and has transitions within it, and not the other way around. If done correctly, you likely began your WILD long before you lay down, and certainly not long after. Semantics, maybe, but I think that might clarify why you're witnessing SP as your body physically succumbs to sleep. Also, as you progress through the stages you'll feel changes, but once in REM you're dreaming, and you should not notice REM atonia -- in REM your consciousness is no longer paying attention to the state of your physical body.

Originally Posted by Sageous

Except that you're not "transitioning into WILDs." WILD is the action of initiating a LD. It is the entire thing you're doing, and has transitions within it, and not the other way around. If done correctly, you likely began your WILD long before you lay down, and certainly not long after. Semantics, maybe, but I think that might clarify why you're witnessing SP as your body physically succumbs to sleep. Also, as you progress through the stages you'll feel changes, but once in REM you're dreaming, and you should not notice REM atonia -- in REM your consciousness is no longer paying attention to the state of your physical body.

I would even venture to guess that you begin dissociating from your body a while before REM. It's weird, I can lie down for an afternoon nap, lay drifting for say 20 minutes and experience all sort of hypnagogic sensations, including phosphene imagery, mind eye imagery, dream imagery, dissociation from my body and shutting off of external stimuli, and yet get up and feel basically awake.
I don't even know where I am with WILD anymore.

Originally Posted by Sageous

Except that you're not "transitioning into WILDs." WILD is the action of initiating a LD. It is the entire thing you're doing, and has transitions within it, and not the other way around. If done correctly, you likely began your WILD long before you lay down, and certainly not long after. Semantics, maybe, but I think that might clarify why you're witnessing SP as your body physically succumbs to sleep.

By "WILDs", I was referring to Wake Induced Lucid Dreams, i.e a type of lucid dreams. You can transition into a (Wake Induced) Lucid Dream. If you read my post carefully, you can see that I am describing the process of having a WILD as "WILDing".

Also, as you progress through the stages you'll feel changes, but once in REM you're dreaming, and you should not notice REM atonia -- in REM your consciousness is no longer paying attention to the state of your physical body.

Read Robot_Butler's post. He too states that you can be in REM without immediately starting to dream, and that is the explanation to why I am experiencing sleep paralysis when I WILD.

I can certainly be paying attention to my body when I am in REM sleep/REM atonia, but it will stop me from transitioning. Therefore, it is entirely my own decision to redirect my attention away from my physical body.

Originally Posted by OneiroMoon

By "WILDs", I was referring to Wake Induced Lucid Dreams, i.e a type of lucid dreams. You can transition into a (Wake Induced) Lucid Dream. If you read my post carefully, you can see that I am describing the process of having a WILD as "WILDing".

Actually, the term is Wake Initiated Lucid Dreams, as coined by LaBerge, which is a technique for becoming lucid, and not the LD itself (though dreams resulting from WILD can differ from dreams resulting from, say DILD) . I too was talking about WILDing. And yes, I read your post as carefully as I could. If you are WILDing into an LD, it should be occupying all of your time, and is not a thing to which you transition.

Read Robot_Butler's post. He too states that you can be in REM without immediately starting to dream, and that is the explanation to why I am experiencing sleep paralysis when I WILD.

I can certainly be paying attention to my body when I am in REM sleep/REM atonia, but it will stop me from transitioning. Therefore, it is entirely my own decision to redirect my attention away from my physical body.

Well, if Robot_Butler said it, it must be true! Seriously, though, keep in mind that REM stands for Rapid Eye Movement, and that movement is caused by your eyes' following the action of a dream. If you're experiencing REM before your dream, why are your eyes moving? And if you can pay attention to your body during REM state, then you are a unique individual indeed! Aside from "dreaming" of bathrooms when you have to pee or something similar, the connection between you and your sleeping body is nonexistant...normally.

Originally Posted by Sageous

in REM your consciousness is no longer paying attention to the state of your physical body.

Hopefully.... but not always. I can often still feel my body, even in vivid lucid dreams. When I take galantamine/choline, it is especially aggravating. From what I've heard from countless other people, this seems to be fairly common.

If you're experiencing REM before your dream, why are your eyes moving?

Good example Tons of beginners report problems during the final stages of WILD because their eyes start moving as they enter REM. There must be two posts a week asking how to keep your eyes closed during WILD.

I agree that if you do everything correctly, your consciousness should be completely removed from your body by the time you hit REM. I'm just pointing out that it is not always the case. Most beginners do not do everything correctly. I don't like guides that encourage; "Don't move, and wait for sleep paralysis," either. I think sleep paralysis is a red herring. Worse, I think it makes WILD more difficult. We should be doing everything we can to avoid it. The smoothest transitions are those where we never notice any of the physical changes in our bodies.

It has always been a difficult subject. We want to give good advice (Don't focus on your body), but we also have to troubleshoot individuals who are confused by the symptoms of sleep paralysis. Too many squeaky wheels

While the "correct" way to WILD is to direct your attention away from your body, it is not the only way. Sleep paralysis is a commonly reported problem during WILD, and it would be silly to ignore it, or pretend it does not exist.

@OneiroMoon & RobotButler:

You guys are right in your assertion that it's possible to experience sleep paralysis before a dream forms (there's a small number of reported cases). It's not the norm/average (hence the qualifier in the OP), but it can happen.

However, for the purposes of this guide, I wanted to make the differences between sleep paralysis and NREM experiences as distinct as possible. You're probably both well aware that most of the DV population lumps vibrations, hypnic jerks, and N1 stage HH into the "SP" terminology. They then wrongly postulate that fully body paralysis is the norm when WILDing.

What follows is hours of wasted effort trying to hit that elusive state of "SP" with its hundreds [sic] of crazy side-effects, when really they should be focusing on passing through multiple states of consciousness, i.e. NREM sleep.

These are dreams and wetware we're dealing with, so admittedly things aren't cut and dry. But we shouldn't force ambiguity on people who are trying to learn a subject for practical purposes.

I do appreciate the deeper discussion going on here, and I hope to address some specific points soon, but this was intended as a simple, clear guide for beginners and people who are unaware that intense fear, paralysis, and alien probing aren't the norm when WILDing.

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As an aside: I'm not convinced that reports of eye movements and having difficulty shutting the eyes can be linked to REM states. I've had those issues before and they don't tend to pop up anywhere near the REM state. What's more, I can usually trace them back to something self induced.

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Originally Posted by RobotButler

Sleep paralysis is a commonly reported problem during WILD, and it would be silly to ignore it, or pretend it does not exist.

Not really. In all the years I've been here, and the hundreds of "SP threads" I've looked into, only a handful of them dealt with sleep paralysis. The large majority were people confused about why they could move, that they felt numbness and tingling, and a myriad of other issues that had absolutely nothing to do with sleep paralysis.

I constantly find myself trying to teach people the difference between "HOLY SHIT I CANNOT MOVE AND THERE ARE STROBE DEMONS EATING MY FEET!" and "Suddenly my body is vibrating all crazy-like and my senses are going super fuzzy. Oh look! Dream imagery!"

Hence why I put this thread together.

I don't write guides just for the sake of it; I write them to address common misconceptions or to teach something new that there isn't much/any reference material for.

A good friend of mine suffers from sleep paralysis regularly, and I've had a bought of it myself. It's a terrifying, intense experience, even if you know what's going on. Once you have first hand experience with full-blown sleep paralysis, it's trivial to pick out the difference between that and the common WILD experience.

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Originally Posted by RobotButler

Hopefully.... but not always. I can often still feel my body, even in vivid lucid dreams. When I take galantamine/choline, it is especially aggravating. From what I've heard from countless other people, this seems to be fairly common.

I actually wanted to touch on this in the OP, but felt it might be somewhat extraneous. There are tons of reports out there of people being unable to move after they complete the transition and having difficulty breaking out of that. Those experiences alone are excellent examples of being intrinsically aware of the body's state while dreaming.

Plus they tie into the whole REM atonia discussion, and the fine-line between the onset of paralysis and dream formation.

As such, during a normal WILD attempt, you will not experience sleep paralysis. This is because REM atonia--a fancy way of referring to full-body paralysis during REM--only triggers after REM has begun. By that point, a dream will have already formed and you’ll have lost consciousness.

The times I've tried to wild on a nap I've been fully concious when the sp has hitten me and I didn't enter a dream.. Which means I did enter rem from reality-conciousness. My eyes started to move around like crazy and I felt, yea all these other SP characteristic feelings(though without any HH,HI)
But as soon as my eyes started to move around uncontrollably I ofc snapped out of the state.

Bookmarked this, now I have more stuff to telephone in the Newbies thread when I'm bored and want to help .

Thanks for the effort you put into this, Mzzkc.

Originally Posted by daban

The times I've tried to wild on a nap I've been fully concious when the sp has hitten me and I didn't enter a dream.. Which means I did enter rem from reality-conciousness. My eyes started to move around like crazy and I felt, yea all these other SP characteristic feelings(though without any HH,HI)
But as soon as my eyes started to move around uncontrollably I ofc snapped out of the state.

Was it the most, or one of the most, terrifying experiences of your life?

'Cause if not, then it probably wasn't sleep paralysis. Especially if there was a lack of open-eyed HH/HI.

People need to keep in mind, when sleep paralysis hits, there isn't any snapping out of it. Your motor neurons aren't sending messages and you will not be able to move anything except your eyes. Diagnosing your experience as SP when it didn't involve extreme fear and intense hallucinations is really stretching it, since that's part of the broader definition.

This rapid eye movement thing is also a bit of a misnomer, as studies done on sleep paralysis show victims have full control of their eyes and eyelids. Really, the only way you can say for sure you were in a REM state is if you're hooked up to an EEG when those "involuntary" eye movements start to happen.

Mzzkc, I now understand what you mean. I thought that most people experience SP when WILDing, but it seems to be the other way around. From now on, I will tell people not to think about SP, as it is not always needed in order to WILD.

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Sageous, this is my last reply to our discussion.

Actually, the term is Wake Initiated Lucid Dreams, as coined by LaBerge, which is a technique for becoming lucid, and not the LD itself (though dreams resulting from WILD can differ from dreams resulting from, say DILD) . I too was talking about WILDing. And yes, I read your post as carefully as I could. If you are WILDing into an LD, it should be occupying all of your time, and is not a thing to which you transition.

Sorry, I have seen both "Induced" and "Initiated" being used, so I assumed that both were correct. Though, I will continue to use "WILD" as a noun when I decide it is needed.

Well, if Robot_Butler said it, it must be true! Seriously, though, keep in mind that REM stands for Rapid Eye Movement, and that movement is caused by your eyes' following the action of a dream. If you're experiencing REM before your dream, why are your eyes moving? And if you can pay attention to your body during REM state, then you are a unique individual indeed! Aside from "dreaming" of bathrooms when you have to pee or something similar, the connection between you and your sleeping body is nonexistant...normally.

I referred to his post, because he described what I meant much better than I did. Again, you can be in REM sleep without being dreaming. You are aware while in REM atonia, and this state is called sleep paralysis (which is hard not paying attention to). I already know what REM stands for, and why the eyes move during dreams. The REM sleep phase may be named after the eye movements that occur when dreaming, but that does not mean that you must be dreaming in order to be in REM sleep.

Originally Posted by Mzzkc

Was it the most, or one of the most, terrifying experiences of your life?

'Cause if not, then it probably wasn't sleep paralysis. Especially if there was a lack of open-eyed HH/HI.

People need to keep in mind, when sleep paralysis hits, there isn't any snapping out of it. Your motor neurons aren't sending messages and you will not be able to move anything except your eyes. Diagnosing your experience as SP when it didn't involve extreme fear and intense hallucinations is really stretching it, since that's part of the broader definition.

This rapid eye movement thing is also a bit of a misnomer, as studies done on sleep paralysis show victims have full control of their eyes and eyelids. Really, the only way you can say for sure you were in a REM state is if you're hooked up to an EEG when those "involuntary" eye movements start to happen.

Yea, ok I guess.
No it wasn't so scary at all actually. Also I have been in real SP(waking up inside it) but it was before I knew anything about lucid dreaming or sleep paralysis. It was indeed the scariest thing that ever happened to me, I will not forget that night And what I explained to you that I got was not like it at all. But it's weird that I get these "involuntary" eye movements. It's like entering REM without sleep paralysis But I guess thats not possible. So I really don't know whats causing the vibrations+...Rapid eye movements.

Originally Posted by OneiroMoon

Sageous, this is my last reply to our discussion.

Sorry I annoyed you, Oneiromoon; it was not intended. I guess I was being a bit snarky, and that wasn't fair. Or nice. I'll be more careful next time, should I find you in a different conversation I hope you'll be willing to discuss other things with me in the future.

I'm done with this thread anyway, as Mzzkc has a much better handle on this stuff than I do.

I feel like there is a lot of misinformation in this thread and I flat out disagree with some of the things being proclaimed here, but I'm too tired at the moment to attempt to clear any of it up. I'll try to come back later.

Originally Posted by nina

I feel like there is a lot of misinformation in this thread and I flat out disagree with some of the things being proclaimed here, but I'm too tired at the moment to attempt to clear any of it up. I'll try to come back later.

I'd be happy to address your concerns and point you to references if you'd like.

Originally Posted by Mzzkc

Was it the most, or one of the most, terrifying experiences of your life?

'Cause if not, then it probably wasn't sleep paralysis. Especially if there was a lack of open-eyed HH/HI.

People need to keep in mind, when sleep paralysis hits, there isn't any snapping out of it. Your motor neurons aren't sending messages and you will not be able to move anything except your eyes. Diagnosing your experience as SP when it didn't involve extreme fear and intense hallucinations is really stretching it, since that's part of the broader definition.

I suffered from chronic episodes of sleep paralysis for about ten years. When it first started, I would suddenly wake up in the middle of the night. Without reason, I would instantly be overcome with an overwhelming and visceral terror. I wanted to scream or jump out of bed, but would be completely unable make a sound or move anything but my eyes no matter how hard I tried. I would then look to my bedroom doorway and see a figure made of black shadows with red eyes standing at the doorway. Eventually, as the episodes became more frequent, the shadow figure would float above me and I would feel an intense pressure on my chest.

Although I believe lucid dreaming and sleep paralysis may be linked in the sense that sufferers of chronic episodes of sleep paralysis may be more likely to be lucid dreamers also, only once in my ten years of experiencing sleep paralysis did I have it link to a lucid dream. WILDs always occur at the onset of sleep, while SP (for me at least) would happen in the middle of a sleep period. It has always bothered me how people lump these two distinct phenomena into one term. I think when WILDing, what people are calling SP is body dissociation. Not being able to move because you can't feel your body is completely different from feeling your body and not being able to move.

Sleep paralysis is not a perfect term to use, but it is not incorrect when used on this forum. If anyone is incorrect it's the people who think sleep paralysis must be accompanied by a sense of terror. Sleep paralysis as described by the people on the typical sleep/health forums is incorrect. Sleep paralysis as a medical term is incorrect. How many sleep health doctors have actually learned to induce sleep paralysis on purpose to study it first hand? Not very many. They rely on the descriptions given by patients who are even more ignorant than they are.

If what you say is true then every time I WILD I pass through a few seconds of NREM sleep. Even if I've already slept for nine hours? NREM should be completely finished by that point. After that much sleep I pass from waking straight into REM sleep. And I can still get all the sensations that you're describing as NREM. As well as the total paralysis that you say doesn't occur during NREM.

I too want to demystify sleep paralysis. But replacing a commonly used and misunderstood term with another commonly used and possibly misunderstood term does not seem like a step in the right direction. I'd rather teach people what sleep paralysis really is.

When we perform a WILD our brain is asleep, yet we are still aware of ourselves. That's what it's all about. And that's exactly what happens to a person when they experience sleep paralysis the old fashioned way. Their awareness of themselves is awake while the rest of their brain is still asleep. Just like a WILD. But the average person doesn't know what's happening and panics. They aren't aware that a little mental discipline can allow them to control the sensations or to simply return to sleep.

Originally Posted by dms111

If what you say is true then every time I WILD I pass through a few seconds of NREM sleep. Even if I've already slept for nine hours? NREM should be completely finished by that point. After that much sleep I pass from waking straight into REM sleep. And I can still get all the sensations that you're describing as NREM. As well as the total paralysis that you say doesn't occur during NREM.

Sorry but this is just false. Every time you go to sleep you go through NREM, that goes for after brief nighttime awakenings, too. As Mzzkc outlines in the OP, much of the phenomena associated with 'REM transitions' occurs in stage 1. It's a misnomer that by WILDing during WBTB you've 'gotten NREM out of the way' as NonREM occurs throughout the night, only stage 3 ceases after several sleep cycles.

the course of a sleep cycle could be seen as Wakefulness->stage 1->stage 2->stage 3->stage 2->REM->brief awakening->Stage 1... etc. etc.

I think probably a lot of Oneironauts do experience REM when they WILD, but most unsuccessful newbies trying to WILD are seeking to induce what amounts to a fiction created through an elaborate game of chinese whispers.

Originally Posted by Ctharlhie

Sorry but this is just false. Every time you go to sleep you go through NREM, that goes for after brief nighttime awakenings, too. As Mzzkc outlines in the OP, much of the phenomena associated with 'REM transitions' occurs in stage 1. It's a misnomer that by WILDing during WBTB you've 'gotten NREM out of the way' as NonREM occurs throughout the night, only stage 3 ceases after several sleep cycles.

I wasn't talking about a WBTB. I was talking about sleeping for nine hours, waking and immediately returning to sleep. I can feel SP take hold, I am very much paralyzed, and a dream begins to form immediately and after a few seconds I'm totally immersed in a dream. So where is the NREM?