Thread: Sleep Paralysis Demystified

Sleep paralysis is not a perfect term to use, but it is not incorrect when used on this forum. If anyone is incorrect it's the people who think sleep paralysis must be accompanied by a sense of terror. Sleep paralysis as described by the people on the typical sleep/health forums is incorrect. Sleep paralysis as a medical term is incorrect. How many sleep health doctors have actually learned to induce sleep paralysis on purpose to study it first hand? Not very many. They rely on the descriptions given by patients who are even more ignorant than they are.

If what you say is true then every time I WILD I pass through a few seconds of NREM sleep. Even if I've already slept for nine hours? NREM should be completely finished by that point. After that much sleep I pass from waking straight into REM sleep. And I can still get all the sensations that you're describing as NREM. As well as the total paralysis that you say doesn't occur during NREM.

I too want to demystify sleep paralysis. But replacing a commonly used and misunderstood term with another commonly used and possibly misunderstood term does not seem like a step in the right direction. I'd rather teach people what sleep paralysis really is.

When we perform a WILD our brain is asleep, yet we are still aware of ourselves. That's what it's all about. And that's exactly what happens to a person when they experience sleep paralysis the old fashioned way. Their awareness of themselves is awake while the rest of their brain is still asleep. Just like a WILD. But the average person doesn't know what's happening and panics. They aren't aware that a little mental discipline can allow them to control the sensations or to simply return to sleep.

Originally Posted by dms111

If what you say is true then every time I WILD I pass through a few seconds of NREM sleep. Even if I've already slept for nine hours? NREM should be completely finished by that point. After that much sleep I pass from waking straight into REM sleep. And I can still get all the sensations that you're describing as NREM. As well as the total paralysis that you say doesn't occur during NREM.

Sorry but this is just false. Every time you go to sleep you go through NREM, that goes for after brief nighttime awakenings, too. As Mzzkc outlines in the OP, much of the phenomena associated with 'REM transitions' occurs in stage 1. It's a misnomer that by WILDing during WBTB you've 'gotten NREM out of the way' as NonREM occurs throughout the night, only stage 3 ceases after several sleep cycles.

the course of a sleep cycle could be seen as Wakefulness->stage 1->stage 2->stage 3->stage 2->REM->brief awakening->Stage 1... etc. etc.

I think probably a lot of Oneironauts do experience REM when they WILD, but most unsuccessful newbies trying to WILD are seeking to induce what amounts to a fiction created through an elaborate game of chinese whispers.

Originally Posted by Ctharlhie

Sorry but this is just false. Every time you go to sleep you go through NREM, that goes for after brief nighttime awakenings, too. As Mzzkc outlines in the OP, much of the phenomena associated with 'REM transitions' occurs in stage 1. It's a misnomer that by WILDing during WBTB you've 'gotten NREM out of the way' as NonREM occurs throughout the night, only stage 3 ceases after several sleep cycles.

I wasn't talking about a WBTB. I was talking about sleeping for nine hours, waking and immediately returning to sleep. I can feel SP take hold, I am very much paralyzed, and a dream begins to form immediately and after a few seconds I'm totally immersed in a dream. So where is the NREM?

Originally Posted by dms111

I wasn't talking about a WBTB. I was talking about sleeping for nine hours, waking and immediately returning to sleep. I can feel SP take hold, I am very much paralyzed, and a dream begins to form immediately and after a few seconds I'm totally immersed in a dream. So where is the NREM?

Right where it should be. See for yourself.



You're still going to hit N1 and N2 sleep, no matter how far into things you are. Objectively, that's just how things work.

Originally Posted by dms111

Sleep paralysis is not a perfect term to use, but it is not incorrect when used on this forum. If anyone is incorrect it's the people who think sleep paralysis must be accompanied by a sense of terror. Sleep paralysis as described by the people on the typical sleep/health forums is incorrect. Sleep paralysis as a medical term is incorrect. How many sleep health doctors have actually learned to induce sleep paralysis on purpose to study it first hand? Not very many. They rely on the descriptions given by patients who are even more ignorant than they are.

Are you a "sleep health doctor" by chance? If so, I'd love to see where you acquired this information.

I'll admit, most everything I wrote about above comes from common knowledge, researching a few scientific sources, basic Psychology, and testimonials from knowledgeable people with the chronic condition. If you've got some peer reviewed work that blows all that out of the water, feel free to cite it.

Originally Posted by dms111

I too want to demystify sleep paralysis. But replacing a commonly used and misunderstood term with another commonly used and possibly misunderstood term does not seem like a step in the right direction. I'd rather teach people what sleep paralysis really is.

Sleep paralysis is full body paralysis caused by REM atonia. I've listed common symptoms above.

Sleep paralysis isn't characterized by the sensations that occur in NREM sleep.

Therefore, to call NREM sensations sleep paralysis is wholly incorrect and inaccurate. Hence my call for a change in terminology.

Pretty damn logical, if you ask me.

Originally Posted by dms111

When we perform a WILD our brain is asleep, yet we are still aware of ourselves. That's what it's all about. And that's exactly what happens to a person when they experience sleep paralysis the old fashioned way. Their awareness of themselves is awake while the rest of their brain is still asleep. Just like a WILD. But the average person doesn't know what's happening and panics. They aren't aware that a little mental discipline can allow them to control the sensations or to simply return to sleep.

This is all sorts of false, but that would be attacking a strawman.

What this does tell me is that you don't seem to understand or have a basic grasp of what happens in the brain during sleep and lucidity.

If you'd like to prove me wrong, a brief quiz I came up with in about two seconds:

What frequency (in regards to brain activity) has been recently associated with lucidity?

Name two cognitive processes that don't occur during normal sleep, but do during a lucid dream.

Name the parts of the brain responsible for the processes you listed above.

What is the function of the amygdala? The occipital lobes?

What about the dorsolateral prefrontal cortex?

If you know your stuff, this shouldn't take you long to fill in. I even put a few gimmes in there for you.

Well I totally botched what I was trying to say I guess. Go ahead and slam me.

So what you guys are saying is that it's impossible to fall straight into REM from a state of wakefulness?

Originally Posted by Mzzkc

Are you a "sleep health doctor" by chance? If so, I'd love to see where you acquired this information.

When I say the medical term for sleep paralysis is incorrect I'm referring to the fear aspect. I understand that sleep paralysis is a real condition that people have. What I'm saying is incorrect is the idea that it has to be accompanied by a sense of fear or dread like you said here

Originally Posted by Mzzkc

Was it the most, or one of the most, terrifying experiences of your life?

'Cause if not, then it probably wasn't sleep paralysis. Especially if there was a lack of open-eyed HH/HI.

Sleep paralysis does not have to be accompanied by fear. I experienced sleep paralysis twice before I knew what lucid dreaming was. I felt the fear. Later I learned about lucid dreaming. Later I learned how to WILD by inducing sleep paralysis. Since I knew what was happening there was no fear. With no panic there is no fear. I was to busy anticipating the upcoming dream. These days I pass through sleep paralysis every time I WILD and there's still no fear. I refuse to believe that I am somehow special and immune to the fear. If I can go through sleep paralysis without fear than anyone can.

Originally Posted by Mzzkc

Sleep paralysis is full body paralysis caused by REM atonia. I've listed common symptoms above.

Sleep paralysis isn't characterized by the sensations that occur in NREM sleep.

Therefore, to call NREM sensations sleep paralysis is wholly incorrect and inaccurate. Hence my call for a change in terminology.

My views are not as far off from yours as they appear to be. Newbies frequently mistake hypnagogic hallucinations for sleep paralysis. I know these sensations can occur before sleep paralysis and are not always tied to it. But I have never tied them to NREM before. I always thought it was just a state of deep relaxation. Maybe this deep relaxation I'm thinking of is actually stage one of NREM. I was unaware that stage one of NREM actually occurs when you are still awake. So you are probably right in that what many people think is sleep paralysis is actually NREM. But the sensations that you describe as happening during NREM can also occur during sleep paralysis.

Originally Posted by Mzzkc

This is all sorts of false, but that would be attacking a strawman.

What this does tell me is that you don't seem to understand or have a basic grasp of what happens in the brain during sleep and lucidity.

Well I'm going to ask you to attack it. I don't know what happens to the brain during
sleep. I experience sleep paralysis frequently now that I've learned how to WILD. I feel I've woken during the night and I can not move. I feel like my body has disconnected from my mind. I know it's there but it feels like dead weight. I often feel a presence in the room and hear voices. When this happens I know exactly what it is so I simply relax and surrender to it and in no time at all I'm immersed in a lucid dream. But this has occurred so many times now that as soon as I realize I'm in sleep paralysis I turn my mind towards the upcoming dream and these hallucinations become part of the dream.

Do you think people can't experience sleep paralysis as their entering sleep? That it only occurs as they're waking up?

Originally Posted by dms111

Well I totally botched what I was trying to say I guess. Go ahead and slam me.

So what you guys are saying is that it's impossible to fall straight into REM from a state of wakefulness?

Technically speaking, yes.

Originally Posted by dms111

When I say the medical term for sleep paralysis is incorrect I'm referring to the fear aspect. I understand that sleep paralysis is a real condition that people have. What I'm saying is incorrect is the idea that it has to be accompanied by a sense of fear or dread like you said here

Right, that's just a commonly reported symptom and the source of many a newbie's unfounded fear. Like I pointed out in the OP, it probably has a lot to do with how the amygdala functions differently during sleep and wakefulness. Sudden shifts between these states, specifically to and from REM, can cause quite an experiential stir if the person is conscious for them.

Originally Posted by dms111

Sleep paralysis does not have to be accompanied by fear. I experienced sleep paralysis twice before I knew what lucid dreaming was. I felt the fear. Later I learned about lucid dreaming. Later I learned how to WILD by inducing sleep paralysis. Since I knew what was happening there was no fear. With no panic there is no fear. I was to busy anticipating the upcoming dream. These days I pass through sleep paralysis every time I WILD and there's still no fear. I refuse to believe that I am somehow special and immune to the fear. If I can go through sleep paralysis without fear than anyone can.

Yes, sleep paralysis can be traversed without fear, but for both first timers and those who understand what's happening, it takes a conscious effort to calm down and not freak out. The reasoning for this is simple: the malevolent presence triggers the flight or fight response, but since neither is possible fear kicks in. If the problem isn't dealt with or worked through logically, that fear will persist.

All that said, it is unusual to experience sleep paralysis during a WILD attempt. Sure most people might experience vibrations, HH, and the like, but objectively speaking a dream should have formed by then.

Originally Posted by dms111

My views are not as far off from yours as they appear to be. Newbies frequently mistake hypnagogic hallucinations for sleep paralysis. I know these sensations can occur before sleep paralysis and are not always tied to it. But I have never tied them to NREM before. I always thought it was just a state of deep relaxation. Maybe this deep relaxation I'm thinking of is actually stage one of NREM. I was unaware that stage one of NREM actually occurs when you are still awake. So you are probably right in that what many people think is sleep paralysis is actually NREM. But the sensations that you describe as happening during NREM can also occur during sleep paralysis.

Well, REM itself has a whole slew of sensations attributed to it that have nothing to do with sleep paralysis.

RobotButler provided a really cool article in one of the threads I linked to here that explains how spinning or falling sensations could potentially come about: http://www.dreamviews.com/f79/some-i...2/#post1872367

Originally Posted by dms111

Well I'm going to ask you to attack it. I don't know what happens to the brain during
sleep.

You should do some simple research into those questions, then. You might be surprised what you find. ^.^

Originally Posted by dms111

I experience sleep paralysis frequently now that I've learned how to WILD. I feel I've woken during the night and I can not move. I feel like my body has disconnected from my mind. I know it's there but it feels like dead weight. I often feel a presence in the room and hear voices. When this happens I know exactly what it is so I simply relax and surrender to it and in no time at all I'm immersed in a lucid dream. But this has occurred so many times now that as soon as I realize I'm in sleep paralysis I turn my mind towards the upcoming dream and these hallucinations become part of the dream.

Yep, all that is entirely valid, and your experience with sleep paralysis speaks volumes. With competency, knowledge, and experience, the fear can easily be overcome. Sadly, newbies often have none of those things. Which is why I tired to be clear cut with this guide.

Sleep paralysis: full body paralysis that happens every night during REM sleep; very uncommon to experience consciously, even when WILDing; source of the common fear/terror stories; not the goal of WILD.

NREM: stages before REM that always occur, even after a WBTB; common to experience effects of each stage during WILD; source of stories around audio and visual hallucinations, vibrations, etc.; dream should form somewhere here, as one passes into REM;

Originally Posted by dms111

Do you think people can't experience sleep paralysis as their entering sleep? That it only occurs as they're waking up?

No, both are possible, but the latter is more commonly reported. Of course, neither are the norm, so they shouldn't be taught as such.

Originally Posted by dms111

So what you guys are saying is that it's impossible to fall straight into REM from a state of wakefulness?

It is actually possible, but usually only associated with narcolepsy.

Originally Posted by hermine_hesse

It is actually possible, but usually only associated with narcolepsy.

^This, some people who WILD really do experience REM through a REM intrusion.

Would someone with Narcolepsy WILD more easily? Could random REM intrusion account for some successful WILDs? Or even explain why some people have a predisposition towards successful WILD?

Originally Posted by dms111

Sleep paralysis as a medical term is incorrect.

I'm going to have to disagree with this also. I've read plenty of neuroscience journals that use this term, though it is often lengthened to Isolated Sleep Paralysis. As I stated earlier, I suffered from this condition for many years. I did see a psychologist briefly in regards to this and he used the term "Sleep Paralysis" as well.