Thread: Breath RC

"I'm breathing. I can't be dreaming because I don't breath in dreams."

"No. I'm not breathing. I must be dreaming because I don't breath in dreams."

We do breath in dreams, we just don't pay any attention into it, just like we don't in waking life( though the dream-breathing might be more in the "background"). If you happened to realize that you forgot to pay attention to your breathing in a dream, you would inhale normally and think nothing of it and carry on non lucidly. Also if you would hold your breath in a dream your sleeping body would also hold it's breath simultaneously. This is why the noseplug RC is pretty much bullet proof.

I think the breath RC could be combined with the noseplug RC. When you noticed you forgot to pay attention to your breathing in waking life you could do the noseplug as you restarted your cycle. Then as you realized it in a dream and you restarted your cycle you would become lucid thanks to the noseplug RC.

To some the breathing RC/Ada could feel a little bit like "working" all the time, because you would have to breath manually continiously. There is another RC that is kinda similar to this in the way that it is always avaible and requires you to do pretty much nothing, the Gravity RC. Some links to the technique.

something similar:
http://www.dreamviews.com/attaining-...0%25-time.html

i think there is no need to breath in dreams but that doesnt mean one is not doing it nevertheless. but i think with the right approach/mindset one could train to notice the difference

Actually, Saizaphod, by your own statement you just assume that to be true ('occurs in the background'). You don't know that it happens, you just think that it should happen because you are so habituated to thinking along those lines. In other words, you don't speak from facts about actions within the dream state but from supposition.

I, personally, have never found myself breathing while in a Lucid or Non-Lucid Dream, so I can not at all relate to your beliefs.

You also can't tell me that your physical body holds it's breath while your dream body is doing so. What a ludicrous concept. Sorry, my friend, but by your own statement, you'd have to hold your breath in the dream, and by extension hold your breath with your physical body, every time you explored under the sea or out in space. That obviously does not take place, or you would jerk awake from oxygen deprivation every time you did so.

Also, RCs are not designed to instigate, or initiate, lucid awareness while in the dream state. They are used as a state check once you think you are in a dream but have not completely come to a conclusion as to its true nature. In waking life they also are state checks. They are designed to make you stop for a moment and check your condition. The conscious, lucid mind knows that breathing is an irrelevant act in a dream, so testing whether you are "physically" breathing is quite relevant. Thus, I do agree that the nose plug RC can be very effective. And if that is your practice, in whatever context you apply it, because it's what you are comfortable with, go for it. I have nothing to say against it.

As to your last comment, the only way you would be working all day 'manually' breathing is if you are doing it wrong. Watching your breath throughout the day, as best you can, is about observation not action. You don't take your conscious intention to breathe and insert it between your body and your unconscious complexes, manually pushing the breath in and out of your lungs. I have no idea where you got such a concept. Even ADA has nothing to do with such a manual insertion of an otherwise unconscious action into the natural processes of the body, or surroundings for that matter. It, too, is purely observational (introspective). You really need to rethink and perhaps reread the concepts so as to actually understand what they are. (Check out, and thoroughly read, the ADA tutorial. I'm not saying you should or should not practice it. I'm just saying properly understand it so as to not pass on erroneous information about someone else's technique.) I'm not trying to be harsh with you, just realistic.

More often than not, when I have to break down what I am thinking for someone else I come to a more complete understanding of said topic for myself. So, thanks for responding and good luck with your practice.

Thanks, RelaxAndDream. I'll check out the link. As you just stated, you don't know whether you breathe or not. Thus, you have to be making an assumption if you posit that we do indeed breathe in dreams, even as a purely dream event.

From my perspective, the mechanical, physical laws of waking reality would have to be made manifest in their entirety within the dream state, without exception, if you are going to say that breathing must occur behind the scenes, to use Saizaphod's phrase. (Not that you said it must, per se) I do not believe that the dreaming mind finds it necessary to emulate exactly waking state physical parameters. It obviously does not. And I don't think it realistic, but rather nothing more than personal imposition, that breathing would be singled out by the dreaming mind as being the one absolutely unnecessary action that had to be emulated from the physical. What would instigate such a singling out of said process?

On a positive note, thinking of ways to spot the difference, or however you wish to phrase it, is most probably a productive action.

[QUOTE=RelaxAndDream;2198812]something similar:
http://www.dreamviews.com/attaining-...0%25-time.html


I like it. I had to read down a bit to understand what the actual practice was, but well worth it. It adds the extra element of monitoring your blinking to breath observation.

It's all about self-awareness, so you can't lose. Now that I think about it for a moment, the blinking aspect might actually be easier to notice than the breathing, as it's hard not to notice your eyelids slamming together. Catch the blinks, connect with the breath, and off you go.

Gods, so many tech choices to choose from.

Thanks again for the link. Very useful.

what i wanted to say is that i think that we dont breath the whole time in our dreams but i had single dreams where i hold the breath or i closed my eyes for some seconds because i was enjoying something. that where very vivid and realistic dreams that i dont have that often in that extent but nevertheless they occur sometime.
but as i said i think when you train your awareness specifically to notice breathing or blinking or gravity and you connect it in your brain with lucid dreaming you will notice atleast most of the time _differences_ in some way or another and will be able to distinguish the sleeping and the waking reality.

i also stumbled over the link and read a litte in it and i find monitoring the blinking as a very tempting approach. i wonder if blinking alone would be sufficient for getting regular lucids. i (atleast try) practice gravity RC since some month and i find it pretty difficult even after this long time. blinking feels more natural atleast at the first glance.
i didnt find any thread or people who say more about blinking as a ADA/RC.

glad i could help

Originally Posted by madmagus

Actually, Saizaphod, by your own statement you just assume that to be true ('occurs in the background'). You don't know that it happens, you just think that it should happen because you are so habituated to thinking along those lines. In other words, you don't speak from facts about actions within the dream state but from supposition.

I, personally, have never found myself breathing while in a Lucid or Non-Lucid Dream, so I can not at all relate to your beliefs.

Okay you're probably right. But it still might be happening, because if it is happening we are paying even less attention into it than we do in real life, which is already extremely minimal until we become consciouss of it happening.

Maybe it's all personal, some people might recall breathing and others don't. I actually don't remember doing it either, unless the dream has been heavily centered on breathing like diving into water and holding it.

Originally Posted by madmagus

You also can't tell me that your physical body holds it's breath while your dream body is doing so. What a ludicrous concept. Sorry, my friend, but by your own statement, you'd have to hold your breath in the dream, and by extension hold your breath with your physical body, every time you explored under the sea or out in space. That obviously does not take place, or you would jerk awake from oxygen deprivation every time you did so.

Most people breath completely fine under water and in space in lucids ( with all sorts of crazy tricks and kicks ). Okay I might be wrong or not about the breathing rhythm matching with that of your sleeping body's. Check out this thread ( If you hold your breath in lucid, do you stop physicaly breathing as well? ), I eye-balled it out briefly and there seemed to be some contradictions about it, but yeah I guess it doesn't happen except in some cases.

Originally Posted by madmagus

Also, RCs are not designed to instigate, or initiate, lucid awareness while in the dream state. They are used as a state check once you think you are in a dream but have not completely come to a conclusion as to its true nature. In waking life they also are state checks. They are designed to make you stop for a moment and check your condition.

The conscious, lucid mind knows that breathing is an irrelevant act in a dream, so testing whether you are "physically" breathing is quite relevant.

Yes they are state checks, but aren't they actually exactly made to initiate lucid awareness? They're the ones that make you sure you're lucid. Like you said, until you do one you might stay in a pre-lucid state in which you're wondering if you're dreaming or not.

You breath just the same way in dreams as you do in waking life if you become consciouss of it happening. You inhale, feel the air moving into your lungs and feel them expanding, and then you exhale feeling the air coming out of your mouth or nose. There's no difference. This is why I suggested the noseplug. If you purely base your intention on becoming lucid by "testing whether you are "physically" breathing" or not, then you surely will not become lucid. Also yes, once you are lucid the breathing is as irrelevant as it is in waking life, no need to pay attention into it.

Originally Posted by madmagus

As to your last comment, the only way you would be working all day 'manually' breathing is if you are doing it wrong. Watching your breath throughout the day, as best you can, is about observation not action. You don't take your conscious intention to breath and insert it between your body and your unconscious complexes, manually pushing the breath in and out of your lungs. I have no idea where you got such a concept.

I can't speak for everyone, but I think many people start to breath manually as soon as they become aware of it happening. It just happens. At least I can't observate my breath consciously without immediately taking control of it.

Originally Posted by madmagus

Even ADA has nothing to do with such a manual insertion of an otherwise unconscious action into the natural processes of the body, or surroundings for that matter. It, too, is purely observational (introspective). You really need to rethink and perhaps reread the concepts so as to actually understand what they are. (Check out, and thoroughly read, the ADA tutorial. I'm not saying you should or should not practice it. I'm just saying properly understand it so as to not pass on erroneous information about someone else's technique.) I'm not trying to be harsh with you, just realistic.

I guess you're referring to King Yoshi's ADA tutorial. I read it and found these two notes in the tutorial about breathing:

Hear the sound of your breathing, feel your lungs expanding and your chest moving as you breath in and out

This could mean active manual breathing and the observation of it. This might not mean pure observation.

How about your lungs? Have you noticed them expanding and your chest moving. Have you notices the air traveling up through your windpipe, across your tongue and passed your lips?

This is pure observation without consciouss interference to the natural breathing. But again, I at least can't notice the air moving in and out without interfering. Maybe I could feel my chest exapanding, but not the breathing.

Hey, Saizaphod. Thanks for a thoughtful response.

One thing i would like to point out, and it's probably that you and I are linguistically off target. To 'initiate' lucidity means you are starting from 0 lucidity and going up the scale from there. That's not the job of the RC, at least not as a rule. To use an RC while dreaming, something else has already 'initiated' the lucid response, and the RC 'confirms' your state. The RC does not 'initiate' it.

You are also mixing up the conversation between non-lucid dreams and lucid dreams. If you are breathing in a lucid dream, you are doing it by choice, because if you are truly lucid, you know that breathing is unnecessary. If you remember breathing in a non-lucid, which I have no idea why it would even come up, unless a specific activity required it such as diving under water, then you would be experiencing 'holding your breath' not breathing. Breathing is the in and out flow of oxygen from the lungs. But as I said, I've never knowingly experienced it in any dream.

Re King Yoshi's ADA tutorial. Actually, it does mean just 'observation'. If he had wanted you to be interactive, he would have told you to count from x to y or hold your breath for 'x' seconds or do 'x' yogic breathing exercise. But he did not. He told you to 'hear' and 'feel', both of which are passive experiences. 'Feel' in this case is more akin to 'experience', as in 'feel' (experience) the motion of the lungs. If English isn't your native language, I can understand how subtle uses of verbs can be potentially problematic.

thanks again.

Originally Posted by RelaxAndDream

but as i said i think when you train your awareness specifically to notice breathing or blinking or gravity and you connect it in your brain with lucid dreaming you will notice atleast most of the time _differences_ in some way or another and will be able to distinguish the sleeping and the waking reality.

Yes, I think we are all trying in one way or another to bridge that gap. It would be sweet if we only had to monitor our blinking to gain consistent lucidity.

Originally Posted by madmagus

One thing i would like to point out, and it's probably that you and I are linguistically off target. To 'initiate' lucidity means you are starting from 0 lucidity and going up the scale from there. That's not the job of the RC, at least not as a rule. To use an RC while dreaming, something else has already 'initiated' the lucid response, and the RC 'confirms' your state. The RC does not 'initiate' it.