Thread: Why dream experience is fundamental and so very important

Author Frank Martin Dimeglio, I have a question, and since you quoted me, just now, maybe you will read this.

You say that dreams are not a creation of the brain, that they are as real as waking experience. The fact is, our waking experience is a creation of the brain (using perceived stimuli as a reference). Then, would dreams not also be creations of the brain? And my question for you, Author Frank Martin Dimeglio, is, what is the brain using as a reference to create dreams?

(I think, Author Frank Martin Dimeglio, that you have proven that dreams are a true experience with the help of pseudophysics and half-logic. I think it's time to move on and study new horizons. What are dreams other than real? compared to waking experience.)

Proper conduct and respect:

1) Disrespectful, ridiculing, mocking, idiotic, spiteful, unprofessional, and/or immature acting people will not get any replies. If any of you start down that road, then, even if you may happen to have a good question or idea later on, know that you will be ignored. Your posts are not read. Talk facts. If you disagree with me, then back it up. I will reply. Don't forget to be respectful meanwhile....I have earned it, and I deserve it.

2) Next point, some of you really are not nearly bright enough to understand the full and clear merit and importance of my ideas. That is clear, and it is a fact. That is the way it goes. Don't deliberately lie, however.

3) I do not write for the amusement of the people here, some of whom act like puppets, fools, and clowns. Don't play good guy/bad guy with me or you will be ignored. It may take time for me to get to your questions. Be patient. Talk facts. Be sincere and honest.

4) Exhibit discretion, maturity, professionalism, and respect in your dealings with me.

5) Do not be lazy about figuring out what I have here. It is well worth it.

6) I am fully aware of how good my ideas are, and so are many others.

7) If you generally and significantly/fundamentally ignore my ideas, then you will be ignored.

Keep the primary focus on my ideas in this thread. That will keep us busy enough. This is not a thousand other threads.

That being said, I welcome and value good questions and helpful or constructive comments.
Lets have a productive, healthy, respectful, educational, fascinating, important, and sincere dialogue. Thank you.

Author Frank Martin DiMeglio

In dreams, we are conscious and alive in conjunction with the fundamental experience of our growth and becoming other than we are.
This is understood as the form, manifestation, or experience that fundamentally balances and constitutes our being and experience. Dream experience and waking experience are FUNDAMENTALLY LINKED and fundamentally related, and they are separate experiences as well.

Dreams are fundamentally consistent with the great fact/truth that the self represents, forms, and experiences a comprehensive approximation of experience in general by combining conscious and unconscious experience. Most importantly, if the self did not represent, form, and experience a comprehensive approximation of experience in general by combining conscious and unconscious experience, we would then be incapable of growth and of becoming other than we are. You see how this is, in turn, most successfully applied to my definition/understanding of dreams.

Accordingly, it is the OVERALL or "global" level of highly organized (and FUNDAMENTALLY LINKED/RELATED) experience that is then manifest, attained, and present in dreams in keeping with this great truth/fact:

In dreams, we are conscious and alive in conjunction with the fundamental EXPERIENCE of our growth and becoming other than we are. DREAMS BALANCE CONSCIOUS AND UNCONSCIOUS EXPERIENCE. DREAMS BALANCE BEING AND EXPERIENCE. (We are relatively unconscious in dreams; and yet we are still conscious.)

Now, dreams balance conscious and unconscious experience; and dreams balance being and experience in conjunction with what is the manifested experience of our growth and becoming other than we are as it is fundamentally balanced with conscious experience. Therefore, dream experience and waking experience are both fundamentally related/linked and separate experiences consistent with the balancing of both conscious and unconscious experience along with the balancing of being and experience that is involved with what is our being conscious and alive in conjunction with the fundamental experience of our growth and becoming other than we are. IT IS CLEAR WHY DREAM EXPERIENCE IS THAT OF THE MIDDLE DISTANCE IN/OF SPACE.

There is no outsmarting the genius of dreams. The manifestation that is (and that involves) our growth and becoming other than we are exists. It is real. It involves a transcendent and overall mastery of physics/physical experience. That is undeniable. THINK ABOUT IT! Dream experience grows/increases. Our growth and becoming other than we are was ongoing/continuous, and it is necessarily linked with/to our waking experience. Dream experience is POTENTIAL AND ACTUAL experience. I have finally proven what it is (and must be), and how/why it is possible.

In my extensive dealings with various top level physicists, they do not even begin to attempt to refute any of my clear proof that dreams unify and balance physics/physical experience. These are facts in dreams:

Fundamentally and ultimately equivalent and balanced inertia and gravity (half inertia and half gravity).
Fundamentally and ultimately equivalent and balanced inertia, electromagnetism, and gravity.
Fundamentally and ultimately equivalent and balanced attraction and repulsion.
Invisible and visible space in fundamental equilibrium and balance.

Also, I have proven why dreams unify physics/physical experience.

READ POST 230. READ ALL OF MY POSTS.

by Author Frank Martin DiMeglio

I DEMAND ACADEMIC HONESTY FROM THE ACADEMIC, PROFESSIONAL, THEORETICAL PHYSICISTS AND DREAM THEORISTS, AND I WILL HAVE IT.

GO SPREAD THE WORD !

Author Frank Martin DiMeglio,
I sure hope you did not think I was offensive with my question!
When I said you used pseudophysics, it was not an insult. Like you said, top level physicists don't even begin to understand the fundamental truths of dreams and experience. That's the problem, what they study is what they call physics. It is a limited science. By pseudophysics, I was refering to physics which don't limit themselves to the zombie observation of repetitive numbers.
When I said Half-logic, I was making a reference at half-distance, half-gravity and the such. Our experience does not belong to full-gravity. Logic is not visible so it cannot be full. That's why I said half!

Author Frank Martin DiMeglio, you have proven, up to my standards, that waking experience and dream experience are related in the manner that they are true and that together, they are part of what makes us grow, become what we are not. It makes sense to me. Here is my question: Waking experience is created by the brain with the information we perceived. (That doesn't make the experience unreal. The body is the machine with which we experience the true physical world). In the same way, the brain is the machine that allows us to experience the true dream world. Whereas for waking experience, the brain uses sensory stimuli as a reference, we do not know what the brain uses as a reference for dreams.

Author Frank Martin Dimeglio, here is my question for you! It is of the upmost important. What does the brain "read" to create the true dream experience?

Could it be Sageous' famous thought energy? Author DiMeglio, you might be about to solve something very important for this community, do help us on our quest to understand the fundamental truth of dreams!

With my upmost respect, Occipitalred, a small Canadian Ailurus fulgens, who likes to chew on bamboo (that's where I get my wisdom!)

(I'm actually genuinely interested by your response Dimeglio. I only add as much humour as you in my posts. It's healthy)

Originally Posted by Occipitalred

Could it be Sageous' famous thought energy? Author DiMeglio, you might be about to solve something very important for this community, do help us on our quest to understand the fundamental truth of dreams!

I don't know about "famous," but, even if you're grouping my theories in with Frank's facetiously (I don't mind, of course), it is nice that someone noticed one!

[edit: I just realized my off-topic and meaningless little post will likely reduce the chances of Frank responding to your questions from astronomical to nil; sorry about that!]

Sagous, or, should I say... Author Sageous! I used the word famous incorrectly, sorry. I was using it as an antonym to the word infamous. In french, "fameux" is not meant to say popular but mostly "great" or "known to be great". I meant it more in that sense...

As for the consequences of your post, I sure hope Author Frank Martin DiMeglio won't get side tracked by the appearance of Author Sageous. (I do find it oddly interesting that two authors are in this conversation).

I am confident that Author Frank Martin DiMeglio will reply to my plights, because it is my understanding that Author Dimeglio uses his waking experience and dream experience to grow, to become what he is not and his jokes / intellectual insights have been quite stagnant. It is time that they grow and become what they are not. And I do have faith.

Originally Posted by Occipitalred

As for the consequences of your post, I sure hope Author Frank Martin DiMeglio won't get side tracked by the appearance of Author Sageous. (I do find it oddly interesting that two authors are in this conversation).

I'm sure it's not a problem, both because Frank doesn't read our posts and because, judging from his recent "proper conduct and respect" post, we are all clearly idiots and liars and his thread is the best of them all, so pretty much nothing here will intimidate him.

I am confident that Author Frank Martin DiMeglio will reply to my plights, because it is my understanding that Author Dimeglio uses his waking experience and dream experience to grow, to become what he is not and his jokes / intellectual insights have been quite stagnant. It is time that they grow and become what they are not. And I do have faith.

I truly hope that your faith is fulfilled, Occipitalred, but Frank has been assuring us he will answer our questions for almost a year now, and still with nary a peep of response on his part, except of course for all that cut-n-pasting. We'll see, I guess...

*sigh* Why are youse still entertaining this thread? This guy is obviously not okay. He is either a massive troll, in which case he should be ignored, don't feed the trolls, or he has mental issues, in which case he shouldn't be encouraged in his potential illness like he has been for 11 pages. Seriously, this is a waste of time that could be spent with productivity or entertainment, I don't see how this is entertaining for anyone, like I said, the guy is either a troll or a mental case, there's nothing funny about either of those options.. Just my two cents..

*sigh* Why are youse still entertaining this thread?

You got to see the potential in this thread Mimi. This thread have become like DV's own drama tv show. Will Frank finally answer any qestion after a year of ignoration? Or will he fall back in his famous copy/paste pattern. Season 5 Episode 1: The hunt for the forgotten answers.

If you dont like tv dramas, then Im pretty sure that we soon will be able to pick up Franks book in the nr1 best sellers shelves in any bookstore around the world. Because he sure have built a strong fanbase here at DV... Right?.



Jokes aside.. I hope that he one day will be able to become other than he are, since that is at least what he claim to know. What he has presented here so far though, is not anything that I have been able to take seriously yet.. And it's not because I wouldnt understand what he are talking about, because I've looked at many of his post. And they are very... Very questionable to say the least.

I will remember this thread the next time I read something about a perfectly good thread being locked because "the discussion ended" a year or more ago.

In this thread the discussion never even began, so I assume it can't ever end either.

Eureka, it is the perfect loophole!

Ok, I am quite new to forums - and I originally joined this one just for the 40hz tACS devices info - but reading this thread, I understood the basics of how a thread can go viral and why it is so fun to read - and so, it goes viral.
All it takes is a low IQ, ego-centered delusional type posting scrambled text that you read many times trying to make sense, then you get confused, then you get amused, then you read further his responses to questions that are copy-pastes of other nonsense and having spent much time trying to understand if it's you who does not understand or the poster who doesn't know what he is saying, you are already tired and all this nonsense becomes progressively so funny and interesting to read that it becomes addictive....
So you go on reading, either laughing and having a good time, or just admiring at how strangely and illogically some people's minds can operate...
Yep, I don't regret reading all this!
I had a good time, admiring the FUNDAMENTAL flaws of Mother Nature when creating some peoples brains...
Laugh is good for you - and it is always for me as well!

Eureka, it is the perfect loophole!

^^ Perfect loophole indeed! Though the conversation on this thread never had much to do with the OP (hard to do when Frank refuses/doesn't know to participate), it has been kind of fun, in a guilty-pleasures sort of way. Still, like DreamyBear, I too am still waiting for the day Frank actually looks at and addresses all the valid questions posed to him... well, a very tiny part of me is waiting, anyway.

That said: I'm with Mimi on the suggestion that maybe it would be best to collectively ignore Frank; I think I even suggested it once. That way, if something is wrong with Frank, then we can let him think he is posting the greatest physics news since relativity and feeling quite good about his superior wisdom until he runs out of steam or they take away his computer... and, if he is a troll, all of us ignoring those cut-n-pastes as a unit ought to be reasonably frustrating. But we all have to work together, folks!

On the other hand, as SearcherTMR so nicely stated just above, this thread has been a lot of fun recently...that may not be a good thing, I know, but still...

Spoiler for Disclaimer:

I am sorry for the tone I will be using in this post, if it sounds condescending or as if I'm mad at you guys, I'm not, it's just the tone that I feel came out when I wrote this. I'm really just saying, your intentions might be the fault here, for this thread anyways. Maybe all of your prejudices come from another thread I didn't see. My own intentions were not so pure either at the start. But I got interested.

As much as you're all entertained with Dimeglio's non-responses, I went back reading for questions from the crowd. I only found this original one from Sageous:

Given that all space is invisible, from the vast stretches of intergalactic emptiness to the tiny gap between your extended forefinger and thumb, and given that gravity is a force with an infinite number of potential levels rendering "half gravity" impossible, are visible/invisible space and half-gravity just metaphors, or perhaps experiential references?

Everything else was just criticizing.

About Sageous' question, [EDIT: I failed to actually read the question I quoted, what I am writing about is that whole discussion that had to do with Gravity being constant everywhere] as someone who did take physics in University, I can say that the acceleration due to gravity does decrease as you go away from the Earth's core. You will eventually get to a distance where the earth's pull is so weak, it will be just as if Earth didn't have gravity. In that sense, on Earth, we experience gravity's full potential. As we go away, Earth loses that power over us. There is inertia. Inertia is the concept that describes that objects will keep moving in the same velocity (speed + direction) as long as no other force is applied. Far in space, an empty (Invisible) space, there is full-inertia, because no new force such as gravity is being applied. And, then, in between those two places, you will get an equilibrium between inertia and gravity. Nobody would use those words like Dimeglio used them, but his physics are just as good as any of ours. Also, Half-gravity can also be a reference to the fact that, our vision for example, or our thoughts, or just our conscious experience in general, is not affected by gravity, only our body. So in that sense, we only feel gravity partially and not fully.

Obviously we will get no response from Dimeglio if the only thing people have to say is how clueless he is. I am not criticizing anybody here. I understand why some of you would not take this seriously and would find it more interesting to make this a drama show and just insult DiMeglio and all, but if any of you are actually here for Dimeglio's insight, then, what should be discussed, is not DiMeglio's credibility, but what he actually speaks of.

For example, I asked, Author Dimeglio, if the brain uses the physical environment to create the waking experience that we perceive, what is used for our dreams?

^^ Nice.

Occipitalred, Frank has created several threads here, and has behaved the same way on all of them, by refusing to answer anyone's questions, including mine, on any of his threads. I personally quickly asked myself "What's the point?" probably before this thread came up, which would explain why I only had one question here. I also hadn't realized that I said I personally asked more than one question on this thread; if I did I was including his other threads, I guess. I'm a little curious about why you singled me out, Occipitalred, because several others here have asked thoughtful questions (often more than one), and I've been trying hard to be as nice to Frank as possible, and I am honestly waiting for him to finally wake up and talk to us -- that seems a bit unfair.

I think that Frank has bought his ticket on these threads, in spades. We -- including the mods -- have asked him repeatedly to stop cutting and pasting, to try to write a bit more coherently, and above all to answer our questions and communicate with us. Frank has completely ignored us, consistently. The closest we ever get to communication is something like that unhelpful "Proper conduct and Respect" post above, where not only does Frank call us idiots and liars, but also hypocritically lists "rules" that he constantly breaks, and then asks us for a conversation. At this point he pretty much deserves anything he gets, and the fact that this thread has become a parody of itself is almost completely his fault. So leave your stern words aside, Occipitalred, or at least set aside your prejudices and read the crap Frank's been handing out for a year before you decide to be holier than us, or me in particular.

And yes, I read your spoiler; it did not help. And yes, you were criticizing.

Thanks for sucking the fun right out of this thread in one quick post, Occipitalred; I'm not sure why you felt it mattered... perhaps it is time to close this thread, if we are simply using this poor man for our own amusement at his own expense -- even if he is driving the amusement himself.

Spoiler for This might be sort of off-topic.:

^^ Fair.

This is not for Sageous but for everyone really:

I'll try to make this quick. I'm actually a pleasant person in real life. But I am very aware that I am annoying on this forum, I don't know why, I've been told multiple times. This is actually not my first account, I made a new one when I came back, after a pause of a few years. Thinking I would get a fresh start, given the few professions of hate I got, and complaints through mods.

I'm writing this because I hope I don't fall in that situationagain, and if anyone has some good criticism to give me, I would love to hear it, just so I can be a more pleasant person to have around on the forum. And please don't say it's not true and all. I know that I am not annoying in real life, I am very good with people. I just need help with how to talk on a forum not to irk people.

And my response to Sageous specifically:

My communication just gets broken through the keyboard, I guess. I need to watch myself more. Sageous, I did not mean to single you out. The quote was from you, because, my search for people's questions was only just only meticulous on the first page, and yours was the only specific questions. Yes, there were other questions but they were all "please do elaborate?" which, I don't expect Dimeglio will ever do. My idea was initially to make a list of the specific questions asked to separate them from all the side-tracked stuff. And then I talked about something that had to do with a conversation I know a lot of people were involved with. Maybe I missed the point though. So as for your curiosity, know that I have nothing against you. Indeed, I see you as one of the wise members. There are quite a few here. I have been only lurking for the past year and barely commenting at all. I have a list of members that I would periodically check up on the conversations they had been having, because I found them interesting to read, and you are one of them.

Anyways, just in general to everyone, now . I'm sorry I got so excited with my own hopes that maybe Dimeglio would respond to me, because I sort of did get acknowledgements from him twice in the last page or two... I thought I was close to get him to talk, so I just sort of got carried away. I do realize that you guys have been genuinely trying at this for a year or so. So I understand the way you all feel. I think this belongs to you guys. I'm gonna let this thread go. I really did not mean to suck the fun out of this thread. And truly, I don't think I did. I'm sure, DiMeglio will post another copy-and-paste, and people will go back to their business and things will be as before, and spellbee will win another Bingo. Just, I'll be around on other threads. Bye.

Spoiler for slightly off topic, but who's really keeping track at this point:

Honestly, good show OccipitalRed. I respect and appreciate the way you handled that.

And I for one don't think what you said is annoying in the least, and I'm sure others would agree. When everyone says one thing, its important that at least one person go back and make sure said thing is accurate, right?

I always assumed this thread was basically intending to point out something about spacial memory, and how dreams are one way to experience this. A way in fact, to experience such things with our minds that we have not in our physical reality.

But then the more I read, the more the author's claims seemed a bit more questionable to me...

Not just the ideas, or even the way that they are written, but more than that it's this notion that everything is firmly explained and definitive. That it's all there cut and dry, and you're basically an idiot if you can't see it, or don't agree.

THAT is what I have trouble with most I think.
That is my own point of view speaking though, my own bias.
In that sense, the genius of the author is a bit lost on me.

But anyone prepared to post their ideas on an internet forum should at least be prepared to encounter some questions, some criticism, right? Especially in a subforum entitled Extended Discussion. The forum is not called Gigantic News In Science, where the reply box is eliminated and only likes are accepted in response.

For the record, I am not a scientist on any level so consider my opinion with that in mind:

Respectfully Frank, in all honesty your ideas are obviously of some worth.
I for one am just not convinced that you have "proven" anything about dreams with alllllll of this.

What I DO know, with definitive certainty, is that dream experiences do NOT always accurately reflect the same experience upon waking. Although the two are linked, they are both distinct and separate for a reason. While they may parallel each other at times, to assume they always do is making a HUGE leap of faith in my opinion.

I've been shot in dreams, and based on the descriptions I've heard of actually being shot there is no relation whatsoever. It was nothing more than a dream, a selfish, biased, idealistic, pretend idea my mind created of how getting shot feels.

I do however, agree on the point that dream experience is fundamental to our waking experience. Just maybe not for the same reasons you have so longwindedly expressed in this thread.

The stuff about fundamental/equivalent intertia balanced with...w/etf
I don't know all that sounds like gibberish to me. Just being honest.

Spoiler for Slightly off-topic:

Well, I appreciate Occipitalred posts too. He writes in an undestandable way even for an inept at physics like me, so if by any chance Frank comes and says that Occipitalred is getting things right, then, even if we hardly understand Frank's writing ways, we'll be able to understand his theory a bit better throug another user's interpretation.

Now, even if I also agree with Sageous, and we could criticize Frank's behavior for pages (along with other users that have been disrespectful too), instead of doing that I will just quote this:

3) I do not write for the amusement of the people here, some of whom act like puppets, fools, and clowns. Don't play good guy/bad guy with me or you will be ignored. It may take time for me to get to your questions. Be patient. Talk facts. Be sincere and honest.

So let's be patient. An answer may take days or weeks or moths, and maybe those answers will not bring us anything new, maybe they will, but we really won't lose anything anyway. All that bingo stuff and jokes were fun, sure, but please let's refrain from doing that from now on. In other words, let's not bump this thread just for posting jokes or criticism that won't lead us anywere, yes?

Now, I'd like to ask Frank for something. Could you tell us how did you figure out that theory? What inspired you? Which information did you use to put two and two together?

I ask this because, sometimes, a bit of background makes it easier to undestand concepts. I mean, one doesn't build a house from the roof down, and background is the like the ground were our ideas are built, right?

Thank you~

In reply to some of your questions/statements, I offer the following help. This helps with fundamentally and basically understanding what is presented here.

IMPORTANT: Combine 1) and 2) together:

1) The self represents, forms, and experiences a comprehensive approximation of experience in general by combining conscious and unconscious experience. Most importantly, if the self did not represent, form, and experience a comprehensive approximation of experience in general by combining conscious and unconscious experience, we would then be incapable of growth and of becoming other than we are. Think about it.

2) The manifestation that is (and that involves) our growth and becoming other than we are necessarily involves a [B]transcendent [U]and OVERALL mastery of physics/physical experience. Think about it.

Dream experience is fundamentally consistent with the great fact/truth that the self represents, forms, and experiences a comprehensive approximation of experience in general by combining conscious and unconscious experience. Think about 2) now.

Now understand that, in dreams, we are conscious and alive in conjunction with the fundamental experience of our growth and becoming other than we are.
================================

Invisible and visible space in fundamental equilibrium and balance is the middle distance in/of space (logically, fundamentally, and clearly) consistent with half gravity and half inertia. Think about it. This is a great truth/fact of physics. This applies to dream experience.

Dream experience is consistent with bodily (including visual) experience; and dreams balance being and experience. Dreams balance conscious and unconscious experience. DREAM EXPERIENCE IS YOU AND OTHER THAN YOU ARE IN BALANCE. ACCORDINGLY, dream experience is always that of the middle distance in/of space. Think about it please. GREAT !

It is quite clear that many of you are not giving these ideas careful and thorough consideration and scrutiny. LOOK AT WHAT I HAVE SAID HERE VERY CAREFULLY.

YOU HAVE TO THINK OF HOW THESE SENTENCES/IDEAS GO TOGETHER/MATCH UP. For example, and importantly, it is seen that dream experience is necessarily the experience of the middle distance in/of space.

Dreams fundamentally link, balance, and combine conscious experience and unconscious experience, as we are conscious and alive in dreams in conjunction with the fundamental EXPERIENCE of our growth and becoming other than we are. This necessarily balances AND links dream experience AT HALF/the MIDDLE in FUNDAMENTAL relation to our waking and conscious experience. Our growth and becoming other than we are is a linked and separate manifestation in relation to our conscious and waking experience. Our being conscious and alive in conjunction with our growth and becoming other than we are in dreams makes that a linked and separate experience/manifestation in relation to our conscious and waking experience.

By Author Frank Martin DiMeglio

^^ So, more cut and pastes that have nothing to do with what was asked of you. Who is insulting whom here, Frank?

Honestly, I'm quite disappointed. But that's my fault anyways.

I'm just gonna further explain my previous post (#264): When I wrote it, I was very optimistic because I had sent a PM to Dimeglio, pretending to be a troll and wanting to pair up with him to troll everyone. My goal was to, first, prove that he was a troll, and second, manipulate him into developing his ideas before I exposed him. Either Dimeglio is no troll or he was smart enough to realize he did not need me. I feel a little bit embarrassed but it was an exciting idea originally. I now realize nothing will change Dimeglio; kind of ironic thinking how much he talks about growth. Acatelelophobic and Suvid, it saddens me to see that your questions have been ignored, realizing how much you too have been trying to discuss Dimeglio's posts and get somewhere. We're all discovering what Sageous and everyone else discovered long ago. Sageous is probably the most persistent in this quest.

But truly, I don't think it's such a loss. The more I try to interpret Dimeglio's statements, the less insightful and revolutionary they appear. He's basically just stating things everyone agrees with like dream and awake experience are part of our growing selves and all the full-gravity stuff is just completely irrelevant. I can say, dreams are part of the middle-earth-cortex and then people would be curious to know what I mean, but it just doesn't mean anything more than what we know. Dimeglio brings no new ideas, instead he puts mud in clear water.

Dimeglio, you're like a ghost, repeating your past again and again. May you find peace and fade away. Move on.

Occipitalred, with the best of intentions. (If you have feelings Dimeglio, know that I do not hold any harsh feelings against you, I've just gotten tired of this game.)

Well, at least this time it's a bit more clear. It's not THAT copy-pasteish, really. I think he tried harder this time.

I'm translating it to my own language, and I find it's not as hard as before. I think I got almost everything from that last post, except the "half-wathever" things. Everything else I think I understand it clearly now. The hard part will be re-translating it to English, but I'll try.

...

... Ok here it goes!

Originally Posted by FrankDiMeglio

1) The self represents, forms, and experiences a comprehensive approximation of experience in general by combining conscious and unconscious experience. Most importantly, if the self did not represent, form, and experience a comprehensive approximation of experience in general by combining conscious and unconscious experience, we would then be incapable of growth and of becoming other than we are. Think about it.

First, I think conscious experience mean "things we learn knowiningly". Unconscious experience is "things we lear without us knowing". So we may dream about a man we never met, but actually we saw him the other day as a random person at the other side of the street. The sum of those experiences are taken by the ego, and, at the same tame, the ego represents that experience as it evolves.

If the ego wasn't able to do take and then represent experience, if the ego was to experience like oil is to water, we would not be able to evolve. (Evolving is exactly the same as "growing and becoming other than we are", but without all that sesquipedalian loquaciousness. We should better use the single word instead)

Originally Posted by FrankDiMeglio

2) The manifestation that is (and that involves) our growth and becoming other than we are necessarily involves a transcendent and OVERALL mastery of physics/physical experience. Think about it.

Bassicaly, having a vast experience of everything empirical (physics laws and tangible experience) is related to the experience that makes us evolve. So, a major experience of the empirical leads our selves to a better assimilation of both conscious and unconscious experience. An indentical experience will be richer for an expert of empirical experience, who will evolve further than others.

Originally Posted by FrankDiMeglio

Dream experience is fundamentally consistent with the great fact/truth that the self represents, forms, and experiences a comprehensive approximation of experience in general by combining conscious and unconscious experience. Think about 2) now.

Shortly, dream experience is consecuential to the experience (conscious+unconscious) assimilated by the ego. Everyone knows that, actually.
Also, dream experience will be much richer once we achieve a mastery on the empirical.

Originally Posted by FrankDiMeglio

Now understand that, in dreams, we are conscious and alive in conjunction with the fundamental experience of our growth and becoming other than we are.

In other words: In dreams, we think, therefore we are. Also, in dreams we experience, therefore we evolve. Being (as in existing) is what allows us to take experience and evolve.


Ok, I think all of that is completely, or at least mostly clear by now...

=====================

Originally Posted by FrankDiMeglio

Invisible and visible space in fundamental equilibrium and balance is the middle distance in/of space (logically, fundamentally, and clearly) consistent with half gravity and half inertia. Think about it. This is a great truth/fact of physics. This applies to dream experience.

Hmmm... I don't get those "half-wathever" things... but I think this is related to 2).

Originally Posted by FrankDiMeglio

Dream experience is consistent with bodily (including visual) experience;

Yep, that was already said a paragraphs ago.

Originally Posted by FrankDiMeglio

and dreams balance being and experience. Dreams balance conscious and unconscious experience. DREAM EXPERIENCE IS YOU AND OTHER THAN YOU ARE IN BALANCE.

So dreams are between what we are right now and the experience we receive. Those two things are separated but linked at the same time, like two different objects linked by a thread. At the same time, dreams are a combination of knowledge we take knowlingly, and knowledge we take unknowingly (this was already said a few paragraphs ago, the thing I said everyone already knows). The balance between you and your evolution (becoming OTHER THAN YOU) is dream experience. You + dream experience = your evolution.

Originally Posted by FrankDiMeglio

It is quite clear that many of you are not giving these ideas careful and thorough consideration and scrutiny.

That means some of us are!

Originally Posted by FrankDiMeglio

For example, and importantly, it is seen that dream experience is necessarily the experience of the middle distance in/of space.

I still did not get the grasp of the "middle distance in space" concept.

Originally Posted by FrankDiMeglio

Dreams fundamentally link, balance, and combine conscious experience and unconscious experience, as we are conscious and alive in dreams in conjunction with the fundamental EXPERIENCE of our growth and becoming other than we are. This necessarily balances AND links dream experience AT HALF/the MIDDLE in FUNDAMENTAL relation to our waking and conscious experience.

So, dreams are a combination of both types of experiences and at the same tame, in dreams we are and we evolve.
Ok, I don't know if I got that right, but I think that very concept is like the thread that connects dream experience with waking experience.
I still don't get the "Half/Middle" thing. It's hard to grasp it for something that is not measurable with numbers.

Originally Posted by FrankDiMeglio

Our growth and becoming other than we are is a linked and separate manifestation in relation to our conscious and waking experience. Our being conscious and alive in conjunction with our growth and becoming other than we are in dreams makes that a linked and separate experience/manifestation in relation to our conscious and waking experience.

Our evolution is linked and separated to our conscious (and waking) experience in the way that the first one (ev) is the result of the second (exp).
The fact that we think, therefore we are, combined with the fact that we experience therefore we evolve in dreams are both linked to our waking experience in the sense of that our waking experience influences our dream experience, as dream experience combines and balances both conscious and unconscious experiences we receive while awake.
In other words, when we experience things, both knowlingly and unknowlingly, the dream will mix both kinds of experience, the ones we already know and those taken unconsciously without our conscious knowledge. As we are(exist) in dreams, we can use dream experience (which combines cons&uncons experience) to evolve.



Now, let me try to guess something:

Wake cons&uncons experiences -> Dream -> Dream experience -> Dream exp + wake exp -> Growth/Evolution -> Better mastery of physical experience -> Richer wake cons&uncons experiences -> Dream -> An so.

I hope I'm not mistaken with this. But if it's like that, then it would mean that people who recall they dreams better (they retain the dream experience) are more prone to achieve that mastery in experiencing physical things, in being aware of them.

... If I got everything perfectly right (I don't know, but really hope so, and also I hope it's undestandable for others), then the next thing to explain further is the half-wathever things.

..............

Originally Posted by Occipitalred

He's basically just stating things everyone agrees with like dream and awake experience are part of our growing selves and all the full-gravity stuff is just completely irrelevant.

... Yeah... that mostly summarizes most of what I just said... Also, I can't believe it took me three hours to write this. I must be so zetta slow X_x

But I'm having fun analizing this. It's like a puzzle. Even if you know how the picture is going to look like, even if it does not bring actually new ideas, a puzzle is always fun.

But I'm having fun analizing this. It's like a puzzle. Even if you know how the picture is going to look like, even if it does not bring actually new ideas, a puzzle is always fun.

Totally agree with this. But for this puzzle, I think that Franks way to presenting all his ideas, are probably the biggest piece in the puzzle that cant be left out.

Here is a qoute from Frank

DREAM EXPERIENCE IS YOU AND OTHER THAN YOU ARE IN BALANCE.

This statement in itself doesnt actually say to much if you dont try to make some sense of it yourself. So, I'd like to translate this into that dreams contains the oppertunity to rewire our brains current way of seeing and understanding, which make us change and grow more and more over the time. This is it's not breaking news. Stil a facinating subject though.

BUT! No matter how much we know how the brain rewire itself during our sleep, we got to move towards those oppertunitys for change with our conscious awareness of what we are doing. So if we dont reflect over all kind of situations in our waking life, well then we cant expect our that our dreams will make the magic and change us for the better. Think about this instead, the whole body replaces all it's cells in 7 years(If I remember it right), so we are in constant change all the time at pretty much all levels.

But to talk about how alive and how much we change during our sleep is pointless if we actually dont approaches changes in our waking life, so even if dreams are a very important for our well being. Just because dreams are crucial for living a functional life, I dont see that dreams as the main cause for in which degree we are going to change. We have to be waken and aware in our waking life to adjust our thinking to how big our changes are going to be. But dreams are playing the part which letting our selfs go even further from our daily progress for change. For example counting 1+1=2 all day long, probably wont make you a math genius, no matter how much you dream. We got to live the change first, then it's all processed further and taking care of in our dreams.

What I've been noticing in Frank after page 1 really. Is that he have changed very little in his way to deal with comunication and explaining stuff in his own thread so far. And at page 11. We stil dont know exactly what it is he want to point at, or for what reason really. So I dont know what Frank himself might experience when it comes to his own changes. But Sometimes I just think that he are so caught up in being right in what he says about change and growt, that might have forget that he stil havn't change himself in the way he approach things in this thread. It's pretty much the same old Frank we see, since page 1.. Im not doing this to trashtalk Franks ideas. But If we look at what he are talking about, and how he approaches comments and questions. Are we really going to learn all about change from him in the end?? Do we start to listen to the weakest person in the gym if we want a personal trainer?

Im stil open for some change in Frank, so he might be able to start talk out of his beard. But until that happen.. This thread are stil going to remain DV's biggest troll-dungeon that's for sure.

This thread must be cursed (because everyone keeps coming back even when they say they won't, in this case: me.)

I agree with this statement DreamyBear:

Originally Posted by DreamyBear

For example counting 1+1=2 all day long, probably wont make you a math genius, no matter how much you dream. We got to live the change first, then it's all processed further and taking care of in our dreams.

But I just got the idea that Frank might not mean that when he says:

Originally Posted by FrankDiMeglio

DREAM EXPERIENCE IS YOU AND OTHER THAN YOU ARE IN BALANCE.

Maybe he means exactly what he wrote. That in dreams, we're us and not us in balance.

For example, when we dream, we're not exactly ourselves. We act differently. We experience the world in a different way than the way we live in real life. I had many dreams where I was completely different. Like a dream where I was a sea bird and the thing I loved most was my nest in my ocean ship crossroad metal construction. But then, I was curious as to where the ships went and embarked on an adventure to see where the ships went. I've been old women, I have done things I would never do, like give orders to my captain in a spaceship (very impolite).

Maybe, a part of what makes us change in dreams, is the fact that dreams give us the opportunity to experience the world in a different way, with a different personality, in a different context. It allows us to live a life that does not belong to us, so we can learn different things than the things we learn in waking life. It's a complement to waking life that makes us grow.

Originally Posted by DreamyBear

BUT! No matter how much we know how the brain rewire itself during our sleep, we got to move towards those oppertunitys for change with our conscious awareness of what we are doing. So if we dont reflect over all kind of situations in our waking life, well then we cant expect our that our dreams will make the magic and change us for the better. Think about this instead, the whole body replaces all it's cells in 7 years(If I remember it right), so we are in constant change all the time at pretty much all levels.

But to talk about how alive and how much we change during our sleep is pointless if we actually dont approaches changes in our waking life, so even if dreams are a very important for our well being. Just because dreams are crucial for living a functional life, I dont see that dreams as the main cause for in which degree we are going to change. We have to be waken and aware in our waking life to adjust our thinking to how big our changes are going to be. But dreams are playing the part which letting our selfs go even further from our daily progress for change. For example counting 1+1=2 all day long, probably wont make you a math genius, no matter how much you dream. We got to live the change first, then it's all processed further and taking care of in our dreams.

What I've been noticing in Frank after page 1 really. Is that he have changed very little in his way to deal with comunication and explaining stuff in his own thread so far. And at page 11. We stil dont know exactly what it is he want to point at, or for what reason really. So I dont know what Frank himself might experience when it comes to his own changes. But Sometimes I just think that he are so caught up in being right in what he says about change and growt, that might have forget that he stil havn't change himself in the way he approach things in this thread. It's pretty much the same old Frank we see, since page 1.. Im not doing this to trashtalk Franks ideas. But If we look at what he are talking about, and how he approaches comments and questions. Are we really going to learn all about change from him in the end?? Do we start to listen to the weakest person in the gym if we want a personal trainer?

To this I'd like to add another variable that I feel it's crucial to "evolving": self-perception.
The same way it's better to be a master of physical experience in order to make general experience more effective, we also need to be masters of self-perception, so the "self/ego" that receives that experience can take it better. If your self-perception is far away from reallity, you will find it hard to grow. But if you are humble and honest to yourself, if you can see your own strenghts and weaknesses, you will be able to overcome them.

So, lacking self-perception is to experience like... like vitamin-C to iron: Your body needs vitamin-C to assimilate iron-rich foods better. Mastery of physical experience is like the stomach: a healthier stomach will digest experience better, the same as mastery of physical experience (full awareness, I think) will take better advantage of all we experience.
Dreams are like the intentines, that take all that proccesed experience and use it to give us nourishments, to make us grow.
But if we don't have Vitamin-C (self-perception), then it doesn't matters how neatly our stomach digest those iron-rich foods, it will not serve us.

And that's why it seems Frank is progressing so slowly. He may be a very experienced person who knows what he's talking about, but he's having a hard time when it comes to look at his own flaws.

Originally Posted by Occipitalred

For example, when we dream, we're not exactly ourselves. We act differently. We experience the world in a different way than the way we live in real life. I had many dreams where I was completely different. Like a dream where I was a sea bird and the thing I loved most was my nest in my ocean ship crossroad metal construction. But then, I was curious as to where the ships went and embarked on an adventure to see where the ships went. I've been old women, I have done things I would never do, like give orders to my captain in a spaceship (very impolite).

Maybe, a part of what makes us change in dreams, is the fact that dreams give us the opportunity to experience the world in a different way, with a different personality, in a different context. It allows us to live a life that does not belong to us, so we can learn different things than the things we learn in waking life. It's a complement to waking life that makes us grow.

Ooooooh!
That's... that's very interesting! In dreams, we take new perspectives, and that makes us grow.

I never though about it that way, really.