Thread: Menthol as a Dream Enhancer

Originally Posted by Alyzarin

Thanks, Ctharlhie! I'm actually just a college sophomore with no set major though lol. I've never had a job in my life, though I'm planning to get one hopefully in the summer and maybe through next semester too instead of taking classes just so I can build up some experience....

Honestly, I just have too much free time to look this stuff up.

It's pretty cool, I did psychology A Level but I'm nowhere near as clued up as you, then again I'm doing English at uni now

I love this thread. I'm glad you had a powerful experience for your first time so you could see what it's like! Too bad it was so dark though, unless that's your thing! But now at least you've got a good idea of what we're dealing with.

And that salvia giggling is weird right!? Like... unnatural. Made me feel like I was being forced to be insane.... It disappears with tolerance though, very quickly.

Yeah it was pretty awesome, I had no idea it was possible to influence your dreams to such an extent, let alone with mint of all things! Yay for menthol
The nightmare element didn't bother me too much, at least it was a pretty clear indication that the menthol had made an impact! I like to take on whatever my unconscious can throw at me, I've had enough nightmares/waking sleep paralysis episodes to be slightly distanced from it. If anything now I see nightmares as being like horror movies/video games you've made yourself that you don't have to pay for!

But yeah, it was interesting, I wasn't expecting such a distinct change in tone, I'll be looking to see whether the inositol really does mitigate the grimdark element to menthol. I also want to determine the cause of the insomnia, some sources point at B5, though it may merely be the size of the peppermint dose, I'm going to try combining valerian in the mix to bring back the shleeps

Salvia was mad, more extreme than marijuana for certain, (and I've smoke very strong weed a couple of times and the salvia was only the x5 variety) I was trying to talk to this guy and all that was coming out was belly laughs.

We're far enough into the experiment that we've got a good amount of detail about how it effects lucidity and vividness now, so I wouldn't be opposed to it.... We should take a vote, though.

Anyone have any objections? Or any ideas on how specifically to reformat it?

I wasn't trying to hijack or anything, it just seems to me that menthol has a very qualitative effect rather than just 'lucidity and vividness 1-10' which always vary per dreamer. To be honest it's the way it affects dream content more than as a way to get lucid (which I suspect is a counter-intuitive attitude towards supplements anyway).

For dreams? No, but I have taken it for memory purposes before. Both just by itself and to combat the effects of an anticholinergic deliriant, which produce a simulated non-lucidity. I actually did keep myself grounded more easily through it, but it's hard to say how much it actually contributed for sure.

Yes, acetylcholine receptors will gain tolerance anything else. You'll actually become desensitized to just about everything, even vitamins (aside from for health reasons).

Actually, it was that inositol trisphosphate was a player in the downstream effects of kappa-opioid receptor activation. How inositol supplementation might effect that, I'm not sure.... I wouldn't doubt that they could go together well, though. Inositol positively regulates serotonin and dopamine receptors, so it could add some happiness like you said and possibly enhance the sexual and maybe vividness-related effects of the menthol.

I'll probably leave ginkgo and hold on to get galantamine. I'll keep experimenting with menthol and inositol and see what happens

I suppose we could do a simple pole here now and in the end sum up all our figures. What if we take all those categories and give them between 1-10 in terms of each of our experience. I think we should gather a bit more information at first, I'll be buying the tablets this week and I get get a better idea of how it feels again. From what I remember I had very similar dreams to Ctharlhie, very dark and surreal, often with themes of isolation or alternate dimensions popping up, an underlying sexual tone in many cases and throughout every dream an astounding sense of storyline no matter how disjointed it may seem at times.

I've only been part of this for a couple of days but for the effects of menthol have been the sexual content (erotic and romantic), violence, increased tangibility and colour saturation, violence, nightmares, surrealism, isolated sleep paralysis, increased hypnagogia...
Looking at all that you could mistake it as the description of calea or some deliriant. 0_o

From what I remember I had very similar dreams to Ctharlhie, very dark and surreal, often with themes of isolation or alternate dimensions popping up, an underlying sexual tone in many cases and throughout every dream an astounding sense of storyline no matter how disjointed it may seem at times.

I know what you mean, my first experiment felt like the menthol had strung a load of different dreams together to have the same storyline no matter how random or illogical the links were. Very strange.

Personally I think a change/addition would be a good idea. As Dutch points out, some sort of poll, or scale might help with summing up, etc.

I'm going to try and look over my DJ for the last year to see if there are any clues or pointers that I might have overlooked? A sort of 'going back to basics' if you like.

Sorry for the late reply everyone. Update: managed to get some peppermint oil so will begin experimenting soon!

^^ So, menthol can enhance these things? damn, 70% of my dreams usually contain some dark themes , anyways i got some menthol today guess i'll be updating here sometime over the next week.

I agree, i tried L-Theanine & it help a lot, perfect for everything while on it i got some major near lucid like dreams, although i haven't tried it since like 09 i'll def. recommend it to all of you guys

Originally Posted by Alyzarin

Does that all make sense? I tried to make sure I brought it all back together in the end, but tell me if I missed something!

Can you draw me a picture?

@Alyzarin - Good work on the table BTW.
It might be a help to put the specific time you took a supplement, whether it was before bed, or at WBTB; plus if you used a combo, etc. Maybe the data could be added in with the 'Sleep Duration' heading?

I know CanisLucidus keeps a very good record on the current template which clearly highlights quite easily when these supplements were taken which helps fellow experimenters on the thread, plus with overall data and record keeping for the future.

@Ctharlie - I went down to the sweet shop health food shop today as there is one near where my Bro. lives, namely Holland and Barrett.
I got hold of some 200 mg Oil of Peppermint capsules, plus some Clary Sage aromatherapy oil.

P.S: Regarding the Menthol (intake), I would give about 48 hrs at least as a general rule of thumb.

@Canis; Be sure to let us know how you get on! Also, I got the liquorice in capsule form, no need to chow down on allsorts before bed I read about lowering testosterone levels but that 1.6g everyday for several weeks!

@Highlander; have fun with those peppermint capsules.

------------------

I also got a mix of skullcap (Ryan Hurd of Dreamstudies says very good things of it), hops (I'm a dedicated ale drinker so anything with hops must be good), valerian and vervain; 60 capsules of a very interesting blend of dreaming herbs for £5!

I am however very concerned by all the money I've spent at Holland and Barret (and I haven't been able to start taking any of it due to exams this week >_<), mind you nothing compared to what I spent in cafes last term, I've banned myself from coffees. All in all I think I have enough supplements to keep me going for about a year's worth of experimentation.

@Highlander; As for the report template, I agree that the way Canis shows when he took the supplements is useful. Even details such as length of WBTB and at what point in the WBTB supplements were taken would be useful.

I apologize, I meant to comment on this before.... Let me just be the first to step out and say that this search for more serotonergic supplements is a bad idea. Serotonin is a red herring. It has detrimental effects on dreaming, and sexual performance. It's actually more likely to suppress sexual dreams than anything.

Every idea about serotonin enhancing dreaming is from information that was wrong or word of mouth that was misleading. Serotonin is part of the body's system regulating sleep, pushing towards deep sleep. It is the opposite of acetylcholine in this system, and if you know anything at all about dreaming, you should know that that's bad. The reason that 5-HTP is a good supplement is because of REM rebound, and nothing else. What happens is that serotonin is formed from the 5-HTP and REM is inhibited, and then it's removed from the synapse and metabolized and REM is allowed to occur, and it happens more heavily due to the build-up that occurred when it was inhibited. 5-HTP is the only supplement that will work in this exact way. Every other serotonergic drug in existence, like serotonin reuptake inhibitors, works specifically be increasing the amount of time serotonin spends in the synapse, and they all have half-lives that can easily prove destructive to dreaming because this process won't end until after you would have already missed lots of dreams, i.e. the REM rebound will take too long to occur and you won't benefit from it.

People think that SSRIs are good at making dreams more vivid, but this is again wrong. Nearly every, if not every, pharmaceutical SSRI in use inhibits the activity of both acetylcholinesterase and butylcholinesterase, meaning that they stop the metabolism of acetylcholine even more effectively than galantamine. Because the ratio of acetylcholine and serotonin rises together, vivid dreams can still occur. It is unlikely that the serotonin adds much more to the dream other than the anxious or violent themes often attributed to them, as one of the only natural states where serotonin is known to exist in normal amounts during REM sleep is in people who are clinically depressed. And when it comes to St. John's wort, you're probably better off just not trying to compare it to anything else. Seriously, just spare yourself the heartache lol. There are no other known drugs even remotely similar to St. John's wort, and its effects on serotonin are so minor compared to its overall pharmacological effects, which include inhibiting the reuptake of dopamine, norepinephrine, GABA, glutamate, choline, and glycine, increasing the release of acetylcholine, blocking the activity of NMDA receptors, inhibiting the metabolism of dopamine, and many other wonderful and terrible things, almost all of which are much more likely players in its dream-related effects than its effects on serotonin.

I also feel the need to mention that serotonin is not something you should play with nearly as easily as other brain and body chemicals (as if you should play easily with any of them). Too much serotonin can go wrong very fast, and for this reason even just the idea of stacking any serotonin-based supplements together or with 5-HTP could end very badly. Believe me, serotonin syndrome is an awful, awful way to leave this world.

I'm going to go out in a limb here and say that the search for replacement or even additive serotonin supplements is a dead end. 5-HTP is already the best of the best of the best.

I'm going to end this post here because I wanted to get it out before going to my next class, but I'm not going to have time to respond to other things before then. I'll get them when I get back, though!

Wait. Did we change format? No matter.

Dose: Pre-bed: 400mcg Huperzine, 200mg DMAE, 4g fish oil; WBTB:400mcg Huperzine, 200mg DMAE, 1/4 cup peppermint leaves
Side Effects: Nausea, Fatigue, slight insomnia
Sleep Duration: 10ish hours total
Cognitive:Forgetful. Couldn't remember tasks well. Aimless wondering.
Sexual: Brief. Make out session. wanted more but DC refused. Lost interest.
Atmosphere: Big darkness battle. Couldn't look up. Dream control challenging. Easy DEILDs. Hard SP

I don't need to be told that I over did it with huperzine. I paid for it this morning. I'm really down about that. On the bright side I had 4 LD's and it seems the addition of menthol increased lucidity. Not too shabby. Next time (from now on) I'll go with a more reasonable 400mcg at WBTB and see how menthol effects me then.

The Clothing Store - Dream Journals - Lucid Dreaming - Dream Views
Allons-y? - Dream Journals - Lucid Dreaming - Dream Views
The Joyride - Dream Journals - Lucid Dreaming - Dream Views
You Can't Say That - Dream Journals - Lucid Dreaming - Dream Views

Dose: WBTB 200mg peppermint oil.
Side Effects: None
Sleep Duration: 6.5hr
Cognitiveretty much useless
Sexual: None at all
Atmosphere: Awesome casual atmosphere. There was an epic cartoony but apocalyptic style to everything without feeling depressing or childish.

Despite the lack of lucidity my dreams were AWESOME. Finally I got those familiar menthol dreams, It wasn't dark or surreal but I had no problems, felt really good and the story was always smooth and flowing. I had a lot more powers than in usual dreams and they weren't about everyday life either

St. John's wort?

Originally Posted by Xanous

St. John's wort?

Yep! St. John's wort should inhibit the reuptake of serotonin, so it could help dreaming similarly to how 5-HTP (a serotonin precursor) does. (Note that I wouldn't combine these two, since serotonin overload can be dangerous.)

Wow, consider me warned. I was aware of the possibility of serotonin syndrome and had read to be careful even of 5-htp, but if there's no point in pursuing serotonergics I'll take your word for it. I hadn't realised St. John's Wort had so much going on, I guess that means it shouldn't be stacked with anything (I haven't experimented with it yet).

Originally Posted by CanisLucidus

This is just a great post. When I say that Benadryl makes me feel like a zombie, I had no idea how literal I was being.

I still fail to understand how you keep all of this straight without notes. I have a hard time keeping more than 4 or 5 facts rattling around my brain at any one time.

I'm right there with you on being fascinated with the hippocampus. Did you ever hear about the study where they found that the hippocampus of a London cab driver was significantly larger than that of an everyday person? The size of the hippocampus actually corresponded with how long the person had been a London cabbie. I find that very cool: Navigation-related structural change in the hippocampi of taxi drivers

Thank you. Oh, and you have no idea how right you are! Have you ever heard of (dun dun dun...) scopolamine? They call it the zombie drug, and it contains a major natural anticholinergic skeleton that drugs like diphenhydramine mimic. It's the most psychoactive chemical in datura, one of the most beautiful tantalizing seductive potentially dangerous drugs there is, at least in "recreational" doses. It very much proves my point though, in more than one way. It causes you to justify every bizarre thing you do with delirious nonsense, and it does basically turn you into a zombie for up to several days, with possible aftereffects lasting an incredibly long time. It's one of those drugs that even druggies usually don't do....

I honestly don't know either though, I really should start writing all of this down before I come to regret slacking off one day lol.

But that study... is... awesome. It makes perfect sense, too.... Just like... holy shit... their brains must keep track of so much space around them... imagine the fucking vast landscapes their vivid dreams could contain.... Or what a hallucinogen could create.... Oh my god....

Guys, I think I found my passion. I'm going to move to London and become a cab driver.

Originally Posted by Ctharlhie

@Alyzarin; That whole post was just amazing. The stuff about the hippocampus is just fascinating in the context of the philosophy I've been reading recently. I may have to be careful over Ginkgo as I have struggled with OCD in the past.

Thanks. I'm glad you found it interesting. Care to share a bit about the philosophy you've been reading? I'm interested in that as well.

I totally understand about the OCD, and can relate. If you do decide to try the ginkgo, what I would recommend is either having valerian root around to take and neutralize the effect, or, preferably, just a shot or two of hard liquor to get it into your system quickly. Both are GABAergic and should cancel it out. Though, for the record, if you can smoke weed and get pretty high without having to deal with anxiety, you'll probably be fine. There are some other pharmacological differences, particularly in those involving memory and perception, but one of the major mechanisms of action of cannabinoids is to lower GABA release throughout the brain. That's where the stereotypical stoner paranoia and panic attacks come from. It's unlikely that a supplement dose of ginkgo would lower activity more strongly than a decent dose of weed.

Originally Posted by Highlander

Can you draw me a picture?

@Alyzarin - Good work on the table BTW.
It might be a help to put the specific time you took a supplement, whether it was before bed, or at WBTB; plus if you used a combo, etc. Maybe the data could be added in with the 'Sleep Duration' heading?

I know CanisLucidus keeps a very good record on the current template which clearly highlights quite easily when these supplements were taken which helps fellow experimenters on the thread, plus with overall data and record keeping for the future.

Will you accept an illustrated emotional response? I'm better with abstract stuff.

Yeah, that's pretty much what I was thinking, keep doing it the way Canis has. I think that'll take care of it pretty well. And thanks!

Originally Posted by Ctharlhie

Wow, consider me warned. I was aware of the possibility of serotonin syndrome and had read to be careful even of 5-htp, but if there's no point in pursuing serotonergics I'll take your word for it. I hadn't realised St. John's Wort had so much going on, I guess that means it shouldn't be stacked with anything (I haven't experimented with it yet).

Yeah, I would definitely be a careful mixing St. John's wort with things. I wouldn't totally count it out though, either. The first night I tried it as a dream enhancer I used it along with smoked damiana and I had some of the most psychedelic dreams of my life. With so many things it does, it's no wonder it can have such a crazy effect.... I tried taking a high dose of it with menthol once too but it caused really heavy insomnia and stomach cramps that had me in the bathroom for a while. Knowing what I know now, it was probably from too much dopamine and glutamate floating around.... It was interesting though, I actually had a mild dissociative effect from it. Definitely wasn't expecting that, but it is a NMDA antagonist after all. The fact that it blocks dopamine metabolism specifically really interests me too....

There's actually an interesting sort of connection between it and menthol, though. You know how capsaicin activates TRPV1 and menthol activates TRPM8? These stand for transient receptor potential cation channel subfamily V member 1 and transient receptor potential cation channel subfamily M member 8, and they're the hot and cold receptors, respectively. Well, hyperforin, one of the big main chemicals in St. John's wort, activates transient receptor potential cation channel subfamily C member 6, or TRPC6. That's supposedly how it gets its ridiculously widespread reuptake inhibition effects. It's interesting stuff....

Originally Posted by Alyzarin

Will you accept an illustrated emotional response? I'm better with abstract stuff.

Yeah, that's pretty much what I was thinking, keep doing it the way Canis has. I think that'll take care of it pretty well. And thanks!

Yeah that would be cool. No problem BTW.


Wed May 8th 2013

Dose: Menthodex cough drops (x5) = 74 mg (approx) taken during WBTB
Side Effects: Gripey stomach
Sleep Duration: Before = 5.75 – 6.5 hrs (WBTB 55 min) After = 3.5 hrs (approx) Total = 9.25 – 10 hrs
Cognitive: My overall recall seemed better? I experienced HI/a dream quite easily whilst resting, post WBTB.
Sexual: Yes, a bare-chested (Ex) GF in a bedroom scene.
Atmosphere: A general mixture of themes. A couple of famous people featured also. Nothing really emotional, etc.
Other Comments: The sexual type dream seems a recurrent one where I experience some ‘delay’ or ‘interruption’, or lack of privacy. It is not exclusive to Menthol usage.
There was a varied storyline to the (non-lucid) dreams in general where they seemed to blend together, although nothing really stood out as such.
Before taking the Menthol, pre-WBTB, It was a bit of a warm evening, inc. in bed initially which may have influenced my sleeping pattern.
I have had better results when taking a much lower dose of Menthol, especially when coupled with a low dose of Vitamin B6 (10 mg) which I often combine during WBTB.

T.O.T.P. The radio. CPR demo, etc - Dream Journals - Lucid Dreaming - Dream Views

All right, my first menthol experiment got a bit scrambled. I planned to do a WBTB and then take the p.oil tablets, but I took melatonin pre bed and got lucid before the WBTB alarm then woke up. Took the peppermint oil nevertheless but had a hard time falling asleep. Anyways here is the report:

Date: 7th of May
Dose: 2x200mg peppermint oil tablets
Side Effects: mild heartburn
Sleep Duration: 7 hrs
Cognitive: I had some sense of urgency during the dream which incorporated in the scenario where we were looking for a space conference. Overall vivid, had some trouble navigating the flying machine.
Sexual: I did not feel sexual attraction to Justin Bieber! But maybe the alarm clock interfered before any menthol thoughts managed to kick in?
Atmosphere: Dynamic, transitioned to happy
Other Comments: Here is the entry from yesterday, dream3 is after taking the peppermint oil tablets.

Cheetah, flying DILD, Justin Bieber

Dose: Pre-bed: 100mg 5-HTP, 5g fish oil; WBTB: 2xGalantamind (8mg galantamine, choline, B5), 300mg Alpha-GPC, 3 bags peppermint tea, 1 bag green tea
Side Effects: Many shallow, strange lucid dreams
Sleep Duration: 6.5 hours
Cognitive: Imaginative and quite gullible. Somewhat forgetful.
Sexual: Moderate. One mini-makeout with a DC and one extended check-out of attractive DCs.
Atmosphere: Bizarre, slightly confused, with a tendency toward the dark. One fright moment.
Lucid: Yes, many shallow ones. (2 WILD, 4 DEILD. Counted as one single, confusing LD.)

This was a repeat of the last combo that I tried, and again it was successful in getting me lucid (many many times!), but nowhere near as deeply. Every dream that I entered felt like it was always moments from slipping away. Dream content itself was uniformly bizarre and occasionally a little dark. There was one DC that was trying to give me a good scare, but I managed to ignore her.

It had been a week since the last time that I tried menthol, and I wonder if I became re-sensitized during this time. Dream bizarreness was pretty high and the slightly sexy side effects were beginning to creep their way in as well, even at this relatively low dose.

One of our dogs flipped out and started screaming in the middle of the night and I had to race down the stairs to calm her down. So I went into this set of dreams after elevating my heart rate and getting slightly pissed off. That might be why I got lucid so readily but so tenuously.

The full DJ entry: DEILDs and Demigods - Dream Journals - Lucid Dreaming - Dream Views

Damn Alyzarin, you'r the doc of the thread
well i got my update:
btw i'm taking Temazepam (major insomniac) so who knows how it's affecting my sleep

5-8-13
Dose: Halls menthol drops (x4) = 21.6mg right before bed (no method as i passed out right away classes,work, etc...)
Side Effects: None
Sleep Duration: Right about 7 1/2 hours, woke up a few times each less than 2 min.
Cognitive: Overall everything was calm but my recall stayed the same
Sexual: In my main dream i was at the movie theater with a sex buddy of mine & we were getting it on
(I became near lucid when i figured out that she'll never do anything like that in public lol)
Atmosphere: Pretty general, everybody was enjoying themselves
Other Comments: I had a chain of FA (3) don't really remember them but just 2:
1.I was in the middle of a dream when i began to notice all my teeth were falling off & blood everywhere, when i found my self not giving a F i said to my self i'm dreaming then immediately i wake up twice in some random places before i really wake up...
2. when i finally wake up i'm in sleep paralysis i use it as my chance to try & become lucid but while doing this i find the boogieman from Gorillaz trying to pull apart my dream body? (i'm pretty desensitized from SP also) i become semi-lucid & end up in my childhood home in my bed still paralyzed with the boogie man still there.

Anyways this was the first time using menthol so hopefully i'll better experiences in a few more days!

Unexpected Development: A Connection Between Acetylcholine, Menthol, and St. John's Wort?

Here's something for you guys to mull over in the old noggins.

As I mentioned at the end of my last post, St. John's wort gets a lot of its diverse pharmacological effects from action of TRPC6, which is related to the receptors that capsaicin and menthol activate to cause sensations of hot and cold, respectively. I've known about this for some time now, but I had learned of it back before I was really that interested in this set of receptors, since before I started researching them for menthol purposes. Since the recent discussion here had St. John's wort on my mind again, I decided to look more into it and see if I could apply some of my newer knowledge to it.

So, you guys remember that enzyme phospholipase C which is involved in the biosynthesis of endocannabinoids and is activated by both kappa-opioid and muscarinic acetylcholine receptors? It was the basis for me theorizing that there could be a synergy between menthol and cholinergic supplements. Well, as I mentioned... somewhere not too ago in this thread... the way the enzyme works directly is by cleaving phosphatidylinositol 4,5-bisphosphate into inositol 1,4,5-trisphosphate and diacylglycerol. I've looked into some interesting stuff about inositol 1,4,5-trisphosphate before, but I never really knew all that much about diacylglycerol. Today I learned something just oh so nifty. In addition to some other related receptors, diacylglycerol activates TRPC6. So let me reiterate what exactly this means. Acetylcholine enhances imagination and hallucinations, which are a product of dopaminergic activity in the hippocampus. Up until now I didn't really have any ideas about how this worked, at least not directly. But the muscarinic acetylcholine receptors which are known to have these effects activate phospholipase C. Diacylglycerol is released as an end product, and potentially it should activate TRPC6 receptors which are present in the hippocampus. These receptors inhibit the reuptake of dopamine. Ergo, dopaminergic neurotransmission is increased and visualizations/hallucinations/dreams are enhanced. In addition to this, TRPC6 enhances the release of endocannabinoids as well and negatively modulates NMDA receptors, each of which could understandably add to the bizarreness of a dream and increase it's psychedelic-like qualities, while also making the environment more vivid and solid and accounting for the dramatic increase in hypnagogia.

Kappa-opioid receptors are known to lower dopamine levels in high doses, but obviously at the doses we're taking menthol and possibly due to its other mechanisms of action, this effect doesn't come into play. It would be obvious if it were too, because a dysphoric effect would be experienced. As a result, the activation of phospholipase C by menthol could theoretically lead to this exact same enhancement of dopaminergic neurotransmission seen with acetylcholine. This is all just a theory of course, but it seems very logical to me. The tie-in with St. John's wort also becomes very clear at this point. If phospholipase C activation is responsible for even just some of the dream-enhancing effects of menthol and cholinergic supplements, then St. John's wort would actually be working through this exact same pathway, just in a more direct way that's further downstream. Maybe that's part of how it can be such an interesting dream enhancer as well? It would also support the idea of a further synergy between these supplements.

The brain is so fascinating.

-----

Originally Posted by Highlander

Yeah that would be cool. No problem BTW.


Wed May 8th 2013

Dose: Menthodex cough drops (x5) = 74 mg (approx) taken during WBTB
Side Effects: Gripey stomach
Sleep Duration: Before = 5.75 – 6.5 hrs (WBTB 55 min) After = 3.5 hrs (approx) Total = 9.25 – 10 hrs
Cognitive: My overall recall seemed better? I experienced HI/a dream quite easily whilst resting, post WBTB.
Sexual: Yes, a bare-chested (Ex) GF in a bedroom scene.
Atmosphere: A general mixture of themes. A couple of famous people featured also. Nothing really emotional, etc.
Other Comments: The sexual type dream seems a recurrent one where I experience some ‘delay’ or ‘interruption’, or lack of privacy. It is not exclusive to Menthol usage.
There was a varied storyline to the (non-lucid) dreams in general where they seemed to blend together, although nothing really stood out as such.
Before taking the Menthol, pre-WBTB, It was a bit of a warm evening, inc. in bed initially which may have influenced my sleeping pattern.
I have had better results when taking a much lower dose of Menthol, especially when coupled with a low dose of Vitamin B6 (10 mg) which I often combine during WBTB.

T.O.T.P. The radio. CPR demo, etc - Dream Journals - Lucid Dreaming - Dream Views

Hooray, the new format! I think it looks good enough for now.

Since you mentioned it, and especially since we know about menthol and menthone directly stimulating dopamine release now, taking a lower dose and combining it with B6, which is used in dopamine biosynthesis, makes sense that it would provide better results. Keep in mind that there's probably a dosage curve where when the kappa-opioid receptor activity gets too strong the dopamine levels will probably start to drop back down, so now that we know more about it it's probably best to really start figuring out the perfect dose to go with!

Originally Posted by NyxCC

All right, my first menthol experiment got a bit scrambled. I planned to do a WBTB and then take the p.oil tablets, but I took melatonin pre bed and got lucid before the WBTB alarm then woke up. Took the peppermint oil nevertheless but had a hard time falling asleep. Anyways here is the report:

Date: 7th of May
Dose: 2x200mg peppermint oil tablets
Side Effects: mild heartburn
Sleep Duration: 7 hrs
Cognitive: I had some sense of urgency during the dream which incorporated in the scenario where we were looking for a space conference. Overall vivid, had some trouble navigating the flying machine.
Sexual: I did not feel sexual attraction to Justin Bieber! But maybe the alarm clock interfered before any menthol thoughts managed to kick in?
Atmosphere: Dynamic, transitioned to happy
Other Comments: Here is the entry from yesterday, dream3 is after taking the peppermint oil tablets.

Cheetah, flying DILD, Justin Bieber

Oh my, a menthol dream with Justin Bieber in it? It would have been interesting to see what happened if you did get the libido effect.

If you try again and you still have trouble sleeping, you may want to think about mixing it with another supplement like L-theanine to combat insomnia. It should help boost dopamine levels, too!

Originally Posted by PeterF

Damn Alyzarin, you'r the doc of the thread
well i got my update:
btw i'm taking Temazepam (major insomniac) so who knows how it's affecting my sleep

5-8-13
Dose: Halls menthol drops (x4) = 21.6mg right before bed (no method as i passed out right away classes,work, etc...)
Side Effects: None
Sleep Duration: Right about 7 1/2 hours, woke up a few times each less than 2 min.
Cognitive: Overall everything was calm but my recall stayed the same
Sexual: In my main dream i was at the movie theater with a sex buddy of mine & we were getting it on
(I became near lucid when i figured out that she'll never do anything like that in public lol)
Atmosphere: Pretty general, everybody was enjoying themselves
Other Comments: I had a chain of FA (3) don't really remember them but just 2:
1.I was in the middle of a dream when i began to notice all my teeth were falling off & blood everywhere, when i found my self not giving a F i said to my self i'm dreaming then immediately i wake up twice in some random places before i really wake up...
2. when i finally wake up i'm in sleep paralysis i use it as my chance to try & become lucid but while doing this i find the boogieman from Gorillaz trying to pull apart my dream body? (i'm pretty desensitized from SP also) i become semi-lucid & end up in my childhood home in my bed still paralyzed with the boogie man still there.

Anyways this was the first time using menthol so hopefully i'll better experiences in a few more days!

Hehe, well I have to look after my baby, I can't just start it and then drop the whole thing.

That sleep paralysis experience sounds awesome. It's a good first go, but I would definitely recommend going with a WBTB next time if you can. I got the menthol effects from taking it at bed myself, but WBTB really does seem to be the better way to go if that's your thing. Just a thought!

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Also, I don't think I said this formally, so welcome to the experiment, you two. I look forward to seeing more of your results!

I wanted to use something else apart from Menthol this morning, as I didn't want to use it two days on the trot. Hopefully I can use the Peppermint oil capsules with a shorter WBTB at the weekend, or next week provided I'm in a good mood with not much to do, etc.

However, I nearly missed the boat this morning by snoozing through my WBTB time. I took a natural WBTB nearly an hour later, scurried about in the Kitchen where it was a toss up between either a banana, B6, and the LAST Green Tea bag. (A case of "Snooze, Choose, or Lose?'")

Yes the Green Tea and the B6 tablet won. I had some interesting results post WBTB!
(Hopefully it's not a fluke - plus I might still have residual Menthol in my system from yesteday?)

P.S: I've still got that used teabag lying about, so I will re-steep it until I drain every bit of theanine out of it!

Research Update....

This is interesting.... It's annoying that this little abstract doesn't specifically say that (-)-menthol (the stereoisomer that natural sources generally contain) enhances glycine currents, but it does say it for just "menthol" and then it specifies (+)-menthol for "pronounced effects"... so I don't know, but the title just says menthol as well. So it's hard to say exactly, but interesting stuff nonetheless.

Modulation of human GABAA and glycine recept... [Eur J Pharmacol. 2004] - PubMed - NCBI

Originally Posted by Modulation of human GABAA and glycine receptor currents by menthol and related monoterpenoids.

Abstract

Effects of common monoterpenoid alcohols and ketones were investigated on recombinant human gamma-aminobutyric acid A (GABAA; alpha1beta2gamma2s) and glycine (alpha1 homomers) receptors expressed in Xenopus oocytes. GABA currents were enhanced by coapplications of 10-300 microM: (+)-menthol>(-)-menthol>(-)-borneol>>(-)-menthone=camphor enantiomers>carvone enantiomers, with menthol acting stereoselectively. By contrast, thujone diastereomers inhibited GABAA receptor currents while glycine currents were only markedly potentiated by menthol. Positive modulation by (+)-menthol was explored given its pronounced effects (e.g., at 100 microM, GABA and glycine EC20 responses increased by 496+/-113% and 135+/-56%, respectively). (+)-Menthol, 100 microM, reduced EC50 values for GABA and glycine from 82.8+/-9.9 to 25.0+/-1.8 microM, and from 98.7+/-8.6 to 75.7+/-9.4 microM respectively, with negligible effects on maximal currents. This study reveals a novel neuroactive role for menthol as a stereoselective modulator of inhibitory ligand-gated channels.

What's interesting about this is that glycine receptors cause analgesia and inhibitory action throughout the brain including extrasynaptic areas of the hippocampus, giving them depressant effects... and this positive enhancement of glycine activity is also shared by...

...alcohol:

Differential Effects of Ethanol on GABAA and Glycine Receptor-Mediated Synaptic Currents in Brain Stem Motoneurons

Originally Posted by Differential Effects of Ethanol on GABAA and Glycine Receptor-Mediated Synaptic Currents in Brain Stem Motoneurons

Abstract

Ethanol potentiates glycinergic synaptic transmission to hypoglossal motoneurons (HMs). This effect on glycinergic transmission changes with postnatal development in that juvenile HMs (P9–13) are more sensitive to ethanol than neonate HMs (P1–3). We have now extended our previous study to investigate ethanol modulation of synaptic GABAA receptors (GABAARs), because both GABA and glycine mediate inhibitory synaptic transmission to brain stem motoneurons. We tested the effects of ethanol on GABAergic and glycinergic miniature inhibitory postsynaptic currents (mIPSCs) recorded from neonate and juvenile rat HMs in an in vitro slice preparation. Bath application of 30 mM ethanol had no significant effect on the GABAergic mIPSC amplitude or frequency recorded at either age. At 100 mM, ethanol significantly decreased the GABAergic mIPSC amplitude recorded from neonate (6 ± 3%, P < 0.05) and juvenile (16 ± 3%, P < 0.01) HMs. The same concentration of ethanol increased the GABAergic mIPSC frequency recorded from neonate (64 ± 17%, P < 0.05) and juvenile (40 ± 15%, n.s.) HMs. In contrast, 100 mM ethanol robustly potentiated glycinergic mIPSC amplitude in neonate (31 ± 3%, P < 0.0001) and juvenile (41 ± 7%, P < 0.001) HMs. These results suggest that glycine receptors are more sensitive to modulation by ethanol than GABAA receptors and that 100 mM ethanol has the opposite effect on GABAAR-mediated currents in juvenile HMs, that is, inhibition rather than enhancement. Further, comparing ethanol's effects on GABAergic mIPSC amplitude and frequency, ethanol modulates GABAergic synaptic transmission to HMs differentially. Presynaptically, ethanol enhances mIPSC frequency while postsynaptically it decreases mIPSC amplitude.

...and THC:

Cannabinoid potentiation of glycine receptors ... [Nat Chem Biol. 2011] - PubMed - NCBI

Originally Posted by Cannabinoid potentiation of glycine receptors contributes to cannabis-induced analgesia.

Abstract

Cannabinoids enhance the function of glycine receptors (GlyRs). However, little is known about the mechanisms and behavioral implication of cannabinoid-GlyR interaction. Using mutagenesis and NMR analysis, we have identified a serine at 296 in the GlyR protein critical for the potentiation of I(Gly) by Δ(9)-tetrahydrocannabinol (THC), a major psychoactive component of marijuana. The polarity of the amino acid residue at 296 and the hydroxyl groups of THC are critical for THC potentiation. Removal of the hydroxyl groups of THC results in a compound that does not affect I(Gly) when applied alone but selectively antagonizes cannabinoid-induced potentiating effect on I(Gly) and analgesic effect in a tail-flick test in mice. The cannabinoid-induced analgesia is absent in mice lacking α3GlyRs but not in those lacking CB1 and CB2 receptors. These findings reveal a new mechanism underlying cannabinoid potentiation of GlyRs, which could contribute to some of the cannabis-induced analgesic and therapeutic effects.

What these two studies are essentially implying is that glycine receptors play a role in the behavioral effects of both alcohol and weed consumption. This would mean that it's possible that menthol could share some of these effects, particularly related to relaxation and mood lift and potentially resulting effects like lowered inhibitions. Since menthol also effects GABA this means that it would actually have an even larger chance to cause alcohol-like changes in behavior, in addition to its kappa-opioid overlap with CB1 receptors' dynorphin release....

I just thought this was a cool little note. Maybe there's even more than we already thought to menthol's "recreational" dream mood effects?

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Originally Posted by NyxCC

That's a great post and opens up the field for some more experimentation. Great thing I have so many supplements around so that I can combine them without too much emphasis on a single one, so hopefully I can avoid desensitizing.

Thanks! And that's good, you can definitely get the most out of them that way.

Originally Posted by NyxCC

Thanks for the warm welcome Aly and others! I am also looking forward to experimenting and reading about your experiences as well. Dream on!

You're very welcome!

Originally Posted by Ctharlhie

@Aly; keep up the good work I can't wait to start experimenting with the SJW/menthol combo after exams.

Thanks, I look forward to seeing your results with the combo!

Originally Posted by CanisLucidus

Yeah, I'm looking forward to seeing this as well! Did I mention that I love this thread? I do. It's true, you know.

This thread loves you too, Canis.

Originally Posted by Ctharlhie

Quick question. I can't find piracetam capsules anywhere, will noopept do the trick at clearing the galantamine from my system? (I'm so new at LD supplements )

EDIT: nope, there's only nootropic powders on amazon, no capsules, which is a pain in the ass.

I have a source where you can still get piracetam, if you need it. They also have noopept, and aniracetam. And sometimes they have pramiracetam, but I'm not sure about right now.... Anyway, what do you mean by clearing the galantamine? Upregulating acetylcholine receptors? If that's the case, noopept can do that. It increases the expression of BDNF, which upregulates them.

Originally Posted by NyxCC

Date: 11 May
Dose: pre bed 3mg mel, WBTB1 - 2xpeppermint oil tablets, WBTB2 - 1/2 cup green tea
Side effects: very mild heartburn, insomnia after WBTB2
Duration: 3.5 hrs + wbtb1 (5mins) + 1.5 hrs = 5 hrs
Cognitive: extremely vivid
Sexual: none
Atmosphere: task oriented, explorative, positive, some astonishment
Other comments: I am happy with the vividness results and frustrated with my insomnia (nothing new), but I think I am starting to understand the problem. Took melatonin and had a natural wake about 3.5 hrs after falling asleep, decided to use this opportunity to take the p.oil capsules then. Good idea. The beginning rebound plus the menthol resulted in what I felt was fantastic vividness. Dream contents was about lucid dreaming where I was analyzing the effects of menthol and trying to go to bed. Also got some other realistic details.

Lucid status menthol dream

WBTB 2: set alarm the night before because I wanted to have tea to increase my chances of being lucid. Was a bit overexcited and too much analytical so internal dialogue turned on, plus outside noise, could not fall asleep.

Analysis: I should have noted by now that melatonin increases the chances of insomnia for me and my rather restless mind.
Suggestions for future experiments: Combo1: early WBTB with p. oil and tea
Combo2: pre bed: mel3, micro- WBTB early on with p. oil ( no tea, and not during weekends - too noisy!)
Combo3: pre bed: other supplement ( SJW/ginko/multivit) + p. oil ?
WBTB: I am keeping a close eye on the timings, and will experiment to find the optimal spot for different supps.

Congrats on the vividness! That menthol dream is pretty hilarious, you were so close!

The menthol thread is back baby!