Thread: NO RC Experiment

I also read in some book that looking at everything as substance of dream may help in recognition when we are actually dreaming. Personally I have not been trying this very often but I was trying it. I can't say that I had no success because I wasn't putting much effort into it but I believe that by doing this one may gain a skill of feeling a dream but in other hand It could lead to confusion...

Actually, I think too thats the problem with people and RCs, because when I do a RC, I ask myself "What reality am I at?", for me, it is the waking reality and the dreaming reality, thats why it is a "reality" check. So I think the problem is the kind of mentality people have, rather than the RC itself.

I tend to agree with everything written here. Often my mundane RC's fail. I find that I much more reliably become lucid just by bringing "critical awareness" to my self and to my environment. And there's no better way to make sure that you do this in dreams than to practice it during waking life, i.e. periodically bring your attention back to the moment, to the NOW. There is almost no need for me to consciously do anything else. This is essentially what authors on Tibetan Dream Yoga advise for waking-life practice.

Another thought: mundane reality checks are often useful when the dream world is chaotic and seems to be operating at random. In the terminology of Dream Yoga, I'd say that these are karmic dreams (in the West we might understand these dreams as being merely the product of one's conscious and subconscious ruminations over the past few days, months, even years). But I believe, as do many others, that there are "stable locales" in the dreamspace. Other worlds with their own sets of rules. (I borrow the term "stable locale" from dream author Robert Moss, whom I highly recommend.) For those of you who've been following Hyu's thread about Teraluna, he mentions recently how a mundane RC failed on that particular stable locale. Teraluna has "rules," and pushing your finger through your palm doesn't work so well there.

There are other stable locales, with their own rules. More important to this discussion, these stables locales are supported by dreamers and other sentient entities. The more people you have believing in something, the more stable it is. Now back to WakingNomad's intuition that the "real world" is but merely a dream, I wholeheartedly agree. To me, the real world is a stable locale that is supported by billions of beings. Hence, it's quite rigid in its reality! Yet miracles--events that seem to "break the rules"--do happen every so often. We only call them miracles because they defy what we believe to be possible. In dreams, anything is possible. The same is true for stable locales, yet what is possible is not always easy to accomplish or realize. (In my dream journal I like to abbreviate the "real world" as WCR, or Waking Consensual Reality. Our world is a reality based on consensus! I admit, this is modified from the sometimes-used terminology of "Waking Physical Reality." My objection to "WPR" is that when I'm in a stable lucid dream, things seem very physically real to me!)

Buddhist literature often has a pretty good handle on this stuff. Read any of the Mahayana sutras (the Vimalakirti is particularly well read) and they state quite frankly how ours is but one world of countlessly many. How travel between these worlds is possible. And how if you truly realize who you are, all is revealed to be illusion, a dream.

Lastly, Hello Everybody! You all seem like fascinating people and I look forward to sharing my ideas with you.

The key to becoming lucid is becoming aware. Once you're aware, you just need to test which reality you're in. (Reality check.)

I'd be careful about thinking everything's a dream. If you get the two confused, you could end up accidentally killing yourself.


Anyway, good luck with the experiment.

Now that I think about it, the occasions where I have become lucid solely by performing an RC have been pretty rare.
Usually, when I perform an RC in a dream, I'm already aware that I'm dreaming, I mostly perform the RC for the sake of performing a RC, perfectly aware that it will work.
Due to this I have stopped performing random RC's some time ago.
I only perform RC's when something feels off, I spot a potential dream sign or I experience a deja vu, which is quite rare.

And I also perform RC's every time I wake up, in order to catch FA's.
The thing is that in this situation I actually have no idea whether or not I'm awake, so it makes sense that the success rate is extremely high in this situation.


I think that this is quite an interesting experiment, but I have some questions related to thinking of waking life as a dream.
Surely you don't mean actually trying to convince yourself you're dreaming whilst you're awake? (In the sense of, your actions have no consequences) As MindGames pointed out that would be quite suicidal.
Could you elaborate a bit on this? What is your definition of a dream?

MindGames:

I'd be careful about thinking everything's a dream. If you get the two confused, you could end up accidentally killing yourself.

There might be some possible danger here if one programs oneself to think of waking consensual reality as a typical nighttime dream. However, I think that the gradual awakening to the illusory, dreamlike nature of waking existence poses no significant threat to one's sanity. For awareness is the key to becoming a stronger lucid dreamer. And practicing awareness of waking reality strengthens your ability to discern the rules of your environment.

Hyu, your depiction of Teraluna suggests that it is a stable locale in the dreamspace. I'd encourage you to test it and observe its "rules." Discover which are malleable, and which are less so. Is playing host to the creatures that bind themselves to the inhabitants of Teraluna an inevitable consequence of living there? Must portals be made in a certain specific fashion for them to work? Can you create anything you like out of thin-air, or is uninhibited imaginal creation curtailed?

I mention your experience with Teraluna because when you are there you intuit that it is an actual place with actual rules. Though you are dreaming, you also live by the rules of your dream world.

In the same fashion, though we be dreaming, we are all living by the rules of consensual reality when we consider ourselves to be "awake."

Hyu:

What is your definition of a dream?

This was likely directed to WakingNomad, but I thought I'd chip in. I think we too quickly draw a distinction between waking life and dream life. We consider the dream worlds to be fantastic, imaginary, unrestricted, and bizarre. The waking world is, on the other hand, stable, governed by rules, concrete. I don't want to elaborate more at the moment on the notion of our waking world as an ultra-stable locale. But when you go down this line of reasoning, it is hard not to consider that our senses fool us: a truly vivid lucid dream does not simply feel real. It is real. We construct our individual experiences based on the sensory input we receive. So in some sense, my definition of what is a dream is simply "experience" itself. What we experience--be it while awake or asleep--is inherently dreamlike. I cannot distinguish dream from waking reality save for the numerous rules (laws of physics, social norms, etc.) that go along with my waking experience. Indeed, I have sometimes had dreams where I go to sleep only to wake up in this reality! Yet I am aware of where I am, aware of the rules that govern this place, and--in my mind--safe from any danger of accidentally harming myself by mistaking where I am.

This may be the key to long term lucidity, without having to do super lots RCs, itll just become a normal habitual thought. Sort of like- ahh, the sun is bright, you'll be in the dream and be like- ahhh- this is a dream. Interesting concept. I need to continue focussing on my dream recall. I'll test it out. Maybe you need to really feel the dreamy feeling? I thought about testing this out, but never gave it a supa serious test.
Alright, Ill test it.

Before I found DV and read about the nose pinch RC I never even used standard RCs. I just became Lucid from questioning reality all the time.

Once during a stressful time in my life I went about my day pretending I was in a dream, and just kind of laughed at all the things that would have normally gotten to me. The intention was to reduce the stress, not to induce Lucidity. But to my surprise I ended up having a spontaneous Lucid that night. So I know it can work.

I'm not ready to give up on the RCing now though. Even though I often become Lucid without the need for an RC. There are still those times when I might question if I'm in a dream and then decide I'm not when I actually am. Those are the times when a simple RC check can really save a Lucid.

Originally Posted by BrerRabbit

There might be some possible danger here if one programs oneself to think of waking consensual reality as a typical nighttime dream. However, I think that the gradual awakening to the illusory, dreamlike nature of waking existence poses no significant threat to one's sanity. For awareness is the key to becoming a stronger lucid dreamer. And practicing awareness of waking reality strengthens your ability to discern the rules of your environment.

Hyu, your depiction of Teraluna suggests that it is a stable locale in the dreamspace. I'd encourage you to test it and observe its "rules." Discover which are malleable, and which are less so. Is playing host to the creatures that bind themselves to the inhabitants of Teraluna an inevitable consequence of living there? Must portals be made in a certain specific fashion for them to work? Can you create anything you like out of thin-air, or is uninhibited imaginal creation curtailed?

I mention your experience with Teraluna because when you are there you intuit that it is an actual place with actual rules. Though you are dreaming, you also live by the rules of your dream world.

In the same fashion, though we be dreaming, we are all living by the rules of consensual reality when we consider ourselves to be "awake."



This was likely directed to WakingNomad, but I thought I'd chip in. I think we too quickly draw a distinction between waking life and dream life. We consider the dream worlds to be fantastic, imaginary, unrestricted, and bizarre. The waking world is, on the other hand, stable, governed by rules, concrete. I don't want to elaborate more at the moment on the notion of our waking world as an ultra-stable locale. But when you go down this line of reasoning, it is hard not to consider that our senses fool us: a truly vivid lucid dream does not simply feel real. It is real. We construct our individual experiences based on the sensory input we receive. So in some sense, my definition of what is a dream is simply "experience" itself. What we experience--be it while awake or asleep--is inherently dreamlike. I cannot distinguish dream from waking reality save for the numerous rules (laws of physics, social norms, etc.) that go along with my waking experience. Indeed, I have sometimes had dreams where I go to sleep only to wake up in this reality! Yet I am aware of where I am, aware of the rules that govern this place, and--in my mind--safe from any danger of accidentally harming myself by mistaking where I am.

You're right, when I read the word "dream" I immediately associated it with this bizarre and imaginary world, as opposed to the waking world where a much more harsh set of rules applies.
This felt odd, hence my asking for the definition of a dream in this case.
What you're saying makes perfect sense, and I believe it's exactly what WakingNomad was referring to.


So in other words, the goal of this experiment is to be completely aware at all times of the set of rules that currently applies.
This way, we are automatically aware whether we're in the waking world, the dream world, or even a dream world with a specific set of rules.

I really like this idea, and I'd like to try it out for a few weeks.
I also believe that chanting this phrase should be helpful, as long as we see dreams the way as BrerRabbit described it.

This is one of the most interesting, intelligent discussions I have seen on a DV thread for a long time.

I actually got this idea from Tibetan dream yoga which I have experimented. I am a Nichiren Buddhist, actually.

As far as dangers, my friend Gypsykiss is worried about me not doing RC's, as if I might kill myself or others if I stop. Well, that notion is silly. I have been having lucid dreams since I was 7, when I realized the dream world and physical world were two different places. I have been killing people in non-lucid dreams and lucid dreams for twenty years. I have only been doing RC's for a year and a half. So, I obviously do not need to do RC's to stop from doing crazy things in waking life such as killing people. Every time I do an RC in waking life, I always know I am awake. I only do it to program myself to do RC's in dreams. It's only in dreams that I am unsure if I am awake or not.

As far as thinking life is a dream being dangerous.... How do we know life is not a dream? How do you know you are not actually awake somewhere else, in another world or plane of existence that is even more real than this one, and your life is only a dream of one night? Is there any way to prove or disprove this idea?

Originally Posted by MindGames

The key to becoming lucid is becoming aware. Once you're aware, you just need to test which reality you're in. (Reality check.)

I'd be careful about thinking everything's a dream. If you get the two confused, you could end up accidentally killing yourself.


Anyway, good luck with the experiment.

The purpose of RC's is to become aware. If you are already aware, then you do not need to do RC's. That's my point.

Don't you mean, "I'd be careful about thinking everything's a dream. If I get the two confused, I could end up accidentally killing myself." Please be aware of your egocentrism. This is not being egotistical, but it means assuming others are like you.

You are also assuming that I believe our actions in dreams have no consequences. I do not believe this. If I believed, as many Westerners do, that dreams are simply "all in your head," then it's likely I would believe that actions in dreams have no consequences.

But, I have seen actions in dreams affect waking life and vice versa. I have also seen actions in dreams affecting future dreams. I also believe that the Dream Plane is another plane of existence, greater than a meeting of minds, so I behave there as if it is.

Originally Posted by Caradon

Before I found DV and read about the nose pinch RC I never even used standard RCs. I just became Lucid from questioning reality all the time.

Once during a stressful time in my life I went about my day pretending I was in a dream, and just kind of laughed at all the things that would have normally gotten to me. The intention was to reduce the stress, not to induce Lucidity. But to my surprise I ended up having a spontaneous Lucid that night. So I know it can work.

I'm not ready to give up on the RCing now though. Even though I often become Lucid without the need for an RC. There are still those times when I might question if I'm in a dream and then decide I'm not when I actually am. Those are the times when a simple RC check can really save a Lucid.

Very cool, I actually had a hypothesis that you had to have the dream feeling in order to better induce lucidity in the dream state. The problem for me at this time is dream recall, my roomates wake me up every morning abruptly, and so I can't wake up super slowly( one of the only ways for me to remember dreams well).

Thinking that life is a dream isn't dangerous... its not having awareness of your actions, and thus, do not control them. Thinking that it is a dream would lead to greater awareness of your actions with relation to others IWL, and in the dream life, greater awareness, and control of yourself in the dream itself. It would allow you to change your habitual reactions, and choose to do things in a conscious manner, rather than doing it automaton. Now, their is a negative side effect, but only if you have psychotic pleasure seeking behavior, with no self-control (like thinking that torturing a dog is a nice past time). Indeed, consciously doing that in a dream would be fucked up, unless you were doing some odd experiment of self-control( no idea here), just as consciously doing it in reality would be fucked up as well.

Thus, the danger does not lie in pretending, or even believing that life is a dream, the danger relies in conscious actions of the individual, and the nature of the individual's mind. Once an individual realize he/she is dreaming, she/he has choice over what to experience, and thus, how to change themselves. Therefore, if they did observe psychotic actions in themselves, they could easily change it through by choosing the resulting experience needed to change it for the better- or even change the nature of their perception of that experience, thus changing the way it affects them, and changing themselves. So thinking, believing, acting, or pretending as if life is a dream is not a bad thing at all, as long as the ramifications of such an understanding are taken in, and one shoots for the positive implications, experiences, and actions thereof.

So it boils down to whether your psychotic, crazy, eccentric, or "normal"( whatever that is). Crazy is not so bad, as long as you are a good crazy. I am eccentric, so I cannot accurately comment on that one . And you would have to define what normal is. And being psychotic is bad news bears for this philosophy/technique for better understanding reality.

Originally Posted by WakingNomad

Don't you mean, "I'd be careful about thinking everything's a dream. If I get the two confused, I could end up accidentally killing myself." Please be aware of your egocentrism. This is not being egotistical, but it means assuming others are like you.

You are also assuming that I believe our actions in dreams have no consequences. I do not believe this. If I believed, as many Westerners do, that dreams are simply "all in your head," then it's likely I would believe that actions in dreams have no consequences.

But, I have seen actions in dreams affect waking life and vice versa. I have also seen actions in dreams affecting future dreams. I also believe that the Dream Plane is another plane of existence, greater than a meeting of minds, so I behave there as if it is.

Oh, shut up. I was just telling you to be careful.

You don't have to get offended by my advice. Just ignore it if you don't like it.

Originally Posted by WakingNomad

This is one of the most interesting, intelligent discussions I have seen on a DV thread for a long time.

I actually got this idea from Tibetan dream yoga which I have experimented. I am a Nichiren Buddhist, actually.

As far as dangers, my friend Gypsykiss is worried about me not doing RC's, as if I might kill myself or others if I stop. Well, that notion is silly. I have been having lucid dreams since I was 7, when I realized the dream world and physical world were two different places. I have been killing people in non-lucid dreams and lucid dreams for twenty years. I have only been doing RC's for a year and a half. So, I obviously do not need to do RC's to stop from doing crazy things in waking life such as killing people. Every time I do an RC in waking life, I always know I am awake. I only do it to program myself to do RC's in dreams. It's only in dreams that I am unsure if I am awake or not.

As far as thinking life is a dream being dangerous.... How do we know life is not a dream? How do you know you are not actually awake somewhere else, in another world or plane of existence that is even more real than this one, and your life is only a dream of one night? Is there any way to prove or disprove this idea?

Yes, I think you make a very good point.

One doesn't perform an RC in waking reality to determine if he or she is dreaming (at least, not in my experience); rather, the point of the RC in waking life is to program oneself to do the RC in the dream. And I think the critical mechanism for becoming lucid via RC's is that the action of performing an RC reminds one to bring awareness to the current environment. It's this awareness that sparks one's lucidity, not the mundane action of the RC itself. Sometimes the RC will produce a startling effect, which can bring about heightened awareness. Other times the RC fails, and no awareness is realized. If one trains, instead, to always be as present and aware as possible while conducting the RC, then the actions (pinching of the nose, taking a little hop in the air, etc.) are not so important, whether they fail or not, and lucidity is achieved with greater frequency.

In sum: ultimately, a reality check is a reminder to be aware. And to get back to the original topic of this thread, if through sheer habit you bring awareness to all of your experiences, waking or sleeping, then reality checks as mundane physical actions are unnecessary.

You have a fantastic way of explaining your thoughts.
I really enjoy reading your posts!

I wouldn't say the RCs become completely unnecessary. I like to do it both ways. When actively working to induce Lucids I try to keep an constant awareness as often as humanly possible. As anyone serious about attaining Lucidity should. Especially if not using supplements to induce Lucidity. (As I don't) But I think it is a good thing to keep yourself trained to do the standard RCs. So that for those occasions when you do need them, you remember to use them. That way you will lose fewer great opportunities.

For one example. I often have tornado dreams. I have them often enough that a lot of times when I see them in my dream, I will remember that this is something that often happens in dreams. But every single time I see a tornado and think that. I think that this time it's not just a dream, this time it's happening for real. But thanks to standard RCs I've checked and become Lucid during quite a few tornado dreams when I otherwise wouldn't have.

But I definitely agree that the awareness method should take priority. The standard RCs should just be used as a helping hand so to speak.

Thanks, Hyu! I must say that one of the reasons I was drawn into this forum was reading your fascinating series on Teraluna. I myself have been having something of a lucid dry spell for the past week or so. Perhaps I should take it easy this morning and go back to bed...

Originally Posted by WakingNomad

If you are already aware, then you do not need to do RC's.

Exactly, my last lucid dream was induced by just feeling that the situation I was in was a dream. I done a RC like 10 (dream)minutes after I actually became lucid and of course it succeeded. I think that we should develop a skill of feeling the dream instead of trying to recognize it by dream sings and hoping that we will do a RC. Maybe instead of writing down our dreams by basing on what we saw/heard/.. and what was the plot we should direct more towards what we felt.

Had two lucid's last night, early in on the night. I was so tired, one of my DCs played a game with me called Hands, where he grabbed my hand, and I was supposed to hold on to the hand as long as I could to help me push my brain farther in the lucid dream state. I was doing the this is a dream thing for a long time yesterday. Will do today and post my results for tonight.

I have some nameless book in my house, it is about dream interpretation and it contains some general info about dreams. I have found one very interesting quote from some Chinese philosopher Zhūangzi (c. 369 BC - c. 286 BC), who had a dream about being a butterfly.
"Once upon a time, I, Chuang Chou, dreamt I was a butterfly, fluttering hither and thither, to all intents and purposes a butterfly. I was conscious only of my happiness as a butterfly, unaware that I was Chou. Soon I awaked, and there I was, veritably myself again. Now I do not know whether I was then a man dreaming I was a butterfly, or whether I am now a butterfly, dreaming I am a man"

I've tried this for nearly 2 weeks now and I've had quite a bit of success with it.
I'd like to note that I still RC after waking up to catch FA's though. (but this works all the time, since I really don't know if I'm awake, so I see no reason to change this routine)

At first I just randomly thought about whether or not I was in the dream world during the day.
I'd always start by saying "This is a dream" with my inner voice.
I've done this for a few days.
However the chant didn't feel right for some reason, so I decided to adapt it for myself.

Instead of saying "This is a dream" I would say "This is real".
Even though it seems like the complete opposite, the idea and thought process is exactly the same.
I'm still trying to figure out which world I am in, but instead of calling both a dream I call both reality.
The idea that they are two worlds with different rules remains exactly the same.

After some time, I noticed that I would remember doing these checks even after a few hours
So there was no need to do them again since I could clearly recall everything I did in between.


Doing this, I've had many dreams where I would just realize that I was in the dream world.
I'm sure this is related to this experiment because I feel like I am much more aware of which world I am in at all times.
I'd like to mention that this has happened before the experiment (just realizing I was in the dream world) but I'm confident that it happens quite a bit more often now.
So yes, this seems to be working out pretty well!

Originally Posted by ultranova

Exactly, my last lucid dream was induced by just feeling that the situation I was in was a dream. I done a RC like 10 (dream)minutes after I actually became lucid and of course it succeeded. I think that we should develop a skill of feeling the dream instead of trying to recognize it by dream sings and hoping that we will do a RC. Maybe instead of writing down our dreams by basing on what we saw/heard/.. and what was the plot we should direct more towards what we felt.

Very interesting! Thanks for the idea.

Originally Posted by Moto

Had two lucid's last night, early in on the night. I was so tired, one of my DCs played a game with me called Hands, where he grabbed my hand, and I was supposed to hold on to the hand as long as I could to help me push my brain farther in the lucid dream state. I was doing the this is a dream thing for a long time yesterday. Will do today and post my results for tonight.

Looking forward to hearing about it.

Originally Posted by ultranova

I have some nameless book in my house, it is about dream interpretation and it contains some general info about dreams. I have found one very interesting quote from some Chinese philosopher Zhūangzi (c. 369 BC - c. 286 BC), who had a dream about being a butterfly.
"Once upon a time, I, Chuang Chou, dreamt I was a butterfly, fluttering hither and thither, to all intents and purposes a butterfly. I was conscious only of my happiness as a butterfly, unaware that I was Chou. Soon I awaked, and there I was, veritably myself again. Now I do not know whether I was then a man dreaming I was a butterfly, or whether I am now a butterfly, dreaming I am a man"

That's Daoist, I think. I heard that little story before. I love it.

Originally Posted by Hyu

I've tried this for nearly 2 weeks now and I've had quite a bit of success with it.
I'd like to note that I still RC after waking up to catch FA's though. (but this works all the time, since I really don't know if I'm awake, so I see no reason to change this routine)

At first I just randomly thought about whether or not I was in the dream world during the day.
I'd always start by saying "This is a dream" with my inner voice.
I've done this for a few days.
However the chant didn't feel right for some reason, so I decided to adapt it for myself.

Instead of saying "This is a dream" I would say "This is real".
Even though it seems like the complete opposite, the idea and thought process is exactly the same.
I'm still trying to figure out which world I am in, but instead of calling both a dream I call both reality.
The idea that they are two worlds with different rules remains exactly the same.

After some time, I noticed that I would remember doing these checks even after a few hours
So there was no need to do them again since I could clearly recall everything I did in between.


Doing this, I've had many dreams where I would just realize that I was in the dream world.
I'm sure this is related to this experiment because I feel like I am much more aware of which world I am in at all times.
I'd like to mention that this has happened before the experiment (just realizing I was in the dream world) but I'm confident that it happens quite a bit more often now.
So yes, this seems to be working out pretty well!

That's awesome! Whenever I wonder if I am dreaming in waking life, I am going to say, "This is real!" from now on. I wonder what is going to happen.

I have thought of this a few times too, but I haven't put it into good practice, until now. But I also believe that the dream plane is just another point of existence. You sir, are a very smart man.

sounds interesting. something else similar to this that I do is when I'm randomly doing something I will say "Oh! I am dreaming" and react how I do when I become lucid in a dream,so then I do a reality check and sorta look around and think of my lucid goals then I continue with my day.
I don't do that at every RC, but usually I RC and say "I am dreaming. I will lucid dream tonight"