Step one: what is.....the MYSTERY?

Some will call it God,
Others will call it Everything that exists,
Some will call it matter and energy,
Some will call it whatever...

I want to know what, if any,
is the highest power that you can conceive of
without going into concepts of "Flying Spaghetti Monster"
That is name calling other people's beliefs which you don't understand.
I don't want to go there.
I want to us each to understand each other to the best of our abilities,
even if we don't agree.

Surely, everyone must have an experience of "THE MYSTERY",
but if not, then I would like to hear from you also,
as to why nothing is mysterious to you.

What is the greatest force/energy/thing/etc. in the Macroverse/Multiverse?
Try to push the envelope a little,
try to venture out on a limb,
speculation is allowed,
opinions are allowed,
but say why.

Remember,
the point here is not to convert each other,
but to understand each other as much as possible,
debate is welcome
as long as each person listens
instead of thinking of how he can poke holes in
his adversary's presentation.

I start this thread because there are other threads that I want to take part in
but from the very beginning there are biases and disagreements.

When people disagree on the fundamental concept that they are communicating about, understanding is impossible. So the point here is not 'who is right and who is wrong' but rather 'what is the highest reality'

Do y'all catch my drift? Understand where I am coming from?
:banana:

The common questions have to do with the universe's origins. How it began, and why, and so on.
But they are not my questions. Instead, what puzzles me the most is how the universe remains in existence, why the rules (the physical laws) remain the way they are and behave as they do. What underlying processes govern their existence? Why is there order? Rather, why does the order persist?

A vehicle on the road is guaranteed existence. It can suffer an accident, get moved from one place to another, or get mashed beyond the point of recognition. But it's still the same material. The same matter. Cars, buildings, trees, people, etc don't just drop out of being at random. Why? The order is virtually perfect. Likewise giant rocks the size of Texas do not come into being at random. Why not?

Spoiler for Kind of irrelevant to my point..:

I've read so many fantastical stories of men and women who have done things that physically "cannot be possible". Mostly of yogis, and some of ancient alleged sorcerers, but of what they did specifically is not what I'm getting at. If strange effects (disorder) can be manifested at all in the universe, I imagine the only way of doing so would be to access whatever it is the universe is based on. To many this is God. Or not. It may be something that is not conscious, or nothing at all. But this thinking is in line with "touching the divine" to create change in the world, here. It is the same as prayer and ritual magic and wishful thinking. But how should it work? How does a complex character in a program manipulate the code on which it exists? An analogy for us.

If there is no such thing as magic, why?
If there is, what is the mechanism that allows it to work?

eh...greatest "power"? maybe I'm over-analyzing, or under-analyzing, or just a moron...but I think everything is equally powerful. ultimately, absolutely, or essentially, I mean. everything looks the same to me. as for the "mystery", I used to have an extreme thirst for the truth...read voraciously, asked alot of questions. but all that stopped at some point, I don't remember when. it's not even that I got any black and white answers. I just feel satisfied now. I don't know why, I sure wish I could explain better, because I know...so many people are questioning. but when I try to explain, no one gets it. everything...just is. when I think about it, it's like...a solid grey unlimited mass. no movement or change. almost like absolute nothingness, I guess, but...not.

er...was that what you were asking for? I don't know, but that's basically how I feel about everything.

Ahhh yes, great idea for a thread :D

I believe the heart of the mystery can be found within us. Whether reality is absolute/objective or otherwise doesn't really matter, what matters is that all WE have is an interpretation of it that exists within our minds. Whatever is really out there beyond the scope of our human senses may always remain a mystery, but in our own personal realities we are essentially the creators and masters.

This interpretation of reality is a result of our linguistic minds, our ability to condense our personal realities into symbols and ideas. An evolutionary tool used to keep us functional in this complex human world we've created. Linguistic ideas have the ability to spread between people like viruses. "Culture" at its core is a set of linguistic ideas/ideals that are exposed to us so early and relentlessly in our lives that they become part of our unconscious realities before we can even reject them. I believe this is the reason for "consensus reality" and the "collective unconscious".

In dreams we are not bound by ideas, even the deep-rooted ones, and we can change them at leisure. That's why its easy to fly in a dream, but likely beyond the realm of possibility in waking life.

The more we package our realities into linguistic symbols and concepts, the more we get wrapped up in the idea that its (and we are) "real", and the duller our conscious awareness of the sensory world becomes. We become intolerant of people with ideas that are different to us, and relate only to those with similar ideas. Any idea is as "real" or "false" as you make it though, that's the power of language. Right, wrong, good, bad, even past and future; these are all self-created concepts that only exist because we organized some symbols into a concept. The universe itself doesn't know or realize any of this, its simply a chaotic process of cause and effect.

Once we realize that this reality is our own illusory creation, and all our linguistic knowledge is completely relative, the only thing left to do is find a way to free ourselves from the linguistic mind. That's where the Buddhist enlightenment, Moksha, the Dao, etc. come from. Complete freedom from a linguistic reality, and just pure passive effortless awareness of everything happening at once. Its not easy though, we as we know ourselves are still part of this illusory reality. To stop identifying with everything at once is a very abstract, difficult, and paradoxical thing to do. Though supposedly it is possible.

And remember, everything here is all idea as well. I won't be free until I can stop identifying with these beliefs.

tl;dr - You are your own God.

Very interesting. Good answers.

basically what I am trying to get at is the difference between Atheists and Theists, but Also between Materialists and (Mentalists?) or mystics or Spiritual Minded people. I'd like to bridge the gap or find some common understanding.

A lot of religious people have a concept of a creator god,
A lot of spiritual people believe in something Divine but try not to have a concept for it,
And materialists believe in energy and matter, but that
consciousness is a byproduct of the brain, etc...

But even atheists or materialists must think that something is a mystery,
Or that something is too big to be known ever,
Something that can be explored forever and there will always be more frontier.
There must be some unsolvable paradox that confronts everyone like a Zen Koan,
Whether it be in science or emotions or life and death, etc...

The Dalai Lama has meetings with cutting edge physicists and psychologists and they exchange ideas and knowledge. This is very interesting. Some of the physicists are materialists, but not many. Some of the psychologists are also materialist atheists.
But they have respectful conversations where nobody is putting down anyone else's beliefs, but they are all discussing the paradoxical mystery from their own special angle.

As for figuring it all out, I don't think that life is a puzzle to be solved, but a mystery to be lived. I am not so much interested in solving any mystery. To me mysteries are unsolvable by definition and that is why they are so beautiful.

I Believe:

That the universe was once a single compressed thing. One solid amount of whatever it was, namely i believe it was a raw form of energy.

I believe for some reason it exploded/expanded

Through time and events this planet and others like it in the universe have came into being and produced a certain combination of chemicals and elements that gave way to life.

I believe life is an accomplishment of the universe that is so special and grand that no one will ever truly know the "mystery" to it and shouldn't.

I believe that (I say this because it's the best way i think to convey it) "god" or that which bonds everything and anything ever is the energy that everything is made up of.

I believe that sentience grew from that energy conceiving the idea of self.

I believe we all are connected through this and that we share the most simple yet powerful bond that trumps any religious/political/racial/sentient/non-sentient/etc that anything or anyone follows, claims, or is a part of.

I believe that we as sentient beings can only progress so far as a separated race, the separation being of whatever it may be (religion/race/beliefs/views) before we must come together and work as a single whole to move further into the realm of existence and unlock the answers to questions long held.

I believe helping one another, and being a brother and a sister to one another is the only way we will survive as a race.

I believe that there are underlying parts to the mystery that we will only unlock by gaining a better understanding of just how much we all share the same foundation in life.

I believe that when we die we (our awareness) return to the universal whole with some knowledge gained from the life lived adding to the conception of itself through ways that are so fundamentally and yet profoundly simplistic in origin we'll never know.

in a way:
I believe the universe is a being in and of itself, that was born and will die.

I believe that we relate to music so well because ( i believe in the string theory ) vibrations and sounds are at the core of the universe and this is why music is so powerful.

I believe that the purpose to life is to live with a single encompassing goal of betterment of all.

I believe you and I are of the same, deserve the same, owe the same, love the same, hate the same, live the same, and so we are essentially the same so there should be no reason why i feel ill towards you or wish you harm lest i have the same opinions of myself.

I'm a Zen Buddhist with a few altered thoughts and beliefs.

The most compelling mystery is the one that cannot be solved.

The mystery.. in my view, and a reduced version of my original words, is this:

The state of being.

Mystery to me is.....awareness! sure, it makes sense when you can say how it happens, but expieriencing it? that is a whole different story.

I have two "ultimate questions" if you will:

Why is there anything in the first place?
How and why did the Universe come in to existence?


Other various mysteries I wonder about:

What is the ultimate fate of the Universe?
Are multiple Universes possible?


There are many mysteries I wonder about but those are probably the biggest ones I think about in terms of the ramifications.

Okay, what about the nature of the self and consciousness?

The greatest mystery is existence itself.
The greatest force/energy/thing/etc., to my knowledge, is the human brain.

When you look at it long enough, it seems that 'mystery' is just something the mind has conjured up to distract you from the reality of things. You don't even have to 'think about it'!

Reality - is it really a mystery? Being - is it really a mystery? Meditate on it. Do not think about it. :D :P

I guess nothing is a mystery if you live it.
Every answer brings a hundred more questions.

But I like thinking about it, not solving it so much.
I like being in a state of wonder,
rather than knowing it all.
I guess living the mystery is remaining in a state of wonder.

Music is a mystery to me, laughter is a mystery,
dance is a mystery.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by really

When you look at it long enough, it seems that 'mystery' is just something the mind has conjured up to distract you from the reality of things. You don't even have to 'think about it'!

Reality - is it really a mystery? Being - is it really a mystery? Meditate on it. Do not think about it. :D :P

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Awareness, being able to communicate to other people, seeing objects both your minds created and they can confirm it, and yada yada yada. It is a mystery. Not how it comes to be, but expieriencing it first hand. All we have in life is our personal expierience of our time alive.


What you believe in now took time, and before you could understand what you understand now it was a mystery. Hell, it still is a mystery, you are still finding your own answers. Answers never stop, even spirituality mentions when you find your answers you find new answers and it just keeps on continueing.

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Originally Posted by LucidFlanders

Awareness, being able to communicate to other people, seeing objects both your minds created and they can confirm it, and yada yada yada. It is a mystery. Not how it comes to be, but expieriencing it first hand. All we have in life is our personal expierience of our time alive.


What you believe in now took time, and before you could understand what you understand now it was a mystery. Hell, it still is a mystery, you are still finding your own answers. Answers never stop, even spirituality mentions when you find your answers you find new answers and it just keeps on continueing.

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The mystery is perpetual when the mind is looking for answers, because the mind cannot arrive at a whole answer. That is the purpose of meditation. The so called 'answer' is already here. Reality could not be more obvious, or could it?

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Originally Posted by really

The mystery is perpetual when the mind is looking for answers, because the mind cannot arrive at a whole answer. That is the purpose of meditation. The so called 'answer' is already here. Reality could not be more obvious, or could it?

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Originally Posted by LucidFlanders

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Whatever was there that created the Big Bang.

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Originally Posted by LucidFlanders

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Originally Posted by really

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Both of you re-read the OP, Dannon specifically requested that those who post avoid trying to poke holes in the others response.

This is about what you think/believe and NOT about who is right or wrong....
continue on-topic according to the OP please, thank you

Edit: Also, i believe the mystery to be our understanding of existence, or more so our misunderstanding. So many people live in the name of materials or grander beings dedicating their one life to such things whilst never taking the time to look at a lotus flower or the starry sky and realize that such beauty is within us as well.
The mystery to me is why not live for life instead of living for a small piece of it...

There is nothing in this world other than matter and energy. Our lives are meaningful to us, humanity has no greater purpose in this universe. Science and reason can explain our creation, if not now than in the future. There is no proof for a supreme being, so there is no cause to believe in one.

The greatest questions are not those of lives but of the universe itself. How was it formed, and will there be others or are there others?

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Originally Posted by horsey101

There is nothing in this world other than matter and energy

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Ah so you've unlocked supreme universal knowledge have you?

You speak as though science has the key to everything.... Disenchantment of life itself

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Originally Posted by MementoMori

Ah so you've unlocked supreme universal knowledge have you?

You speak as though science has the key to everything.... Disenchantment of life itself

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I personally believe science does have the answer to nearly everything. At some point, I think we will be able to explain virtually all non-philosophical questions through science. Life is what you make of it, and I don't think there is much to it other than organisms which have evolved to reproduce as effectively as possible. It's fine if others feel the need to attach a greater purpose or meaning to life, but I don't feel one exists.

When I say mystery, I mean the mystery of mysteries, something that cannot ever have an answer by definition, maybe the Great Paradox. I don't know, I am not a scientist, but I think that science comes across the paradox also. Sure, the paradox can be solved, only to be pushed a little way off into the frontier. More knowledge can always be gained, but it seems to me that the mystery always eludes capture, like a rainbow. It seems to me, that it can never be captured.
Even if you believe that science can know everything sometime in the future, what is the greatest mystery that you can conceive of? The Big Bang is a great one, and is basically a funny word for "For some mysterious reasonthat we have no idea of why the most illogical thing happened that began the whole Universe." Now, That is a very good mystery!!!

How does this apply to our lives here and now?

I have a tendency towards the belief that science and philosophy will eventually arrive at the same conclusions...they are one and the same, but from different approaches.

I try to avoid believing anything. Beliefs rely on faith, and faith is something I ran out of a long time ago. However, I remain open minded and skeptical. If I experience something, I can place that into a known category, or at least a "likely" category.

Personally, I like experimenting with Thomas Campbell's model of reality. I don't believe in it, but I accept it as a possibility and it seems logical to me - I'm currently working on verifying his theories for myself.

In essence, the model is that this entire physical universe is a virtual reality, encased within a non-physical (from our point of view) virtual reality. This virtual reality is built from a digital consciousness base - all that exists is merely information. Your experience is your perception of the data that you encounter. Space and time do not have an inherent independent existence, they are simply a part of the rule-set that governs this particular virtual reality.

There are two assumptions his model is based on - a digital consciousness awareness base, whose origins are mysterious, and a fundamental evolutionary process that favors organization (low entropy). Following these assumptions, all realities are experiments/processes run with the intention of lowering the entropy of the overall system.

That's a really high level, basic, and probably slightly inaccurate overview of the model (I don't purport to know any of this on a deep level), but it's one that I find logical. Tom himself says don't take his word for it...go out and verify it for yourself. I don't believe in it myself, but I'm open to trying the author's suggestion and seeing if I get similar results.

In essence, the answer to your question is consciousness; that is (theoretically) the fundamental force of existence.

Very interesting. I wonder how one could verify it for oneself?
Consciousness is a good mystery, one that defies answers. The Big Bang is another. These two I find to be very good mysteries.
I think all other mysteries can be boiled down to these two.