Lucid dreaming questions ( Christians only, please... or dont go against us. )

MarcUK joined a lucid dreaming website just to necro-post about lucid dreaming being evil. I don't think he is the best source of information; anecdotal, experiential, empirical or otherwise. His post is very similar to saying that cars are a path to drunk driving accidents. How you choose to use a tool is indicative of your character alone, and not the nature of the tool itself. Lucid dreaming is guided by the intentions of the dreamer (actually all dreaming is). If you have evil or negative or dark intentions, it will surely help you along that path.

I'm a Christian and I do whatever the hell I want in my dreams....I use it for escapism....it is all in my mind and doesn't have to "reflect" how I am in "reality" unless I allow it to...

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Originally Posted by MarcUK

Patrick 45 is right, though it's not easy achieving. I am a Christian struggling with this very thing. But the real underlying issue here is much deeper. Lucid dreaming is a step towards darkness, where it's possible to meet spirits of wickedness. Before I was saved I had real encounters with real spirits of darkness. Christians should avoid learning to Lucid dream as it opens a door that is very hard to close. Be careful.

In Christ
Marc

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Let me just say that I am a Christian, and a firm one. And I don't believe lucid dreaming opens your mind to evil spirits. Why? Well, because the Bible is pretty clear about Christians needing to 'take [their] thoughts captive'--basically, to have control over your own mind. Kind of like how you should have control over the rest of your muscles. And what does lucid dreaming do? It allows you to have a greater level of mental control. So actually, then, you're more vulnerable to evil spirits and influences while NOT lucid dreaming! That's when you aren't in control, and when anything can happen. But if you're lucid, things can only enter your dreams if you allow them to, or, if they got in before you were lucid, you can kick them out.

Now, I'm not saying evil spirits can even get into your dreams at all if you're a Christian. I don't know, but I think not. As a believer, evil spirits do not control you. If you see one in your dream as a Christian, you are either not living like you should be, or it is just a fabrication of your own mind, probably as a result of fear or anxiety. But not a real spirit.

That doesn't rule out the good spirits, however. The Bible also lists TONS of places where angels or God Himself made contact with humans via dreams (often lucid dreams! Yes, really! Hint: look for the word 'vision' instead of 'lucid') so I find it hard to believe that it's so dangerous to learn to lucid dream. Everywhere I look I see only benefits.

Am I the only one who doesn't understand the whole "evil spirits in coming into your dreams" thing?

I'd also like to see evidence for such spirits :|.

Lucid Dreams, out of body experiences, angelic visitation, astral projection, all of these things can be gifts from God. Some people never want or even consider to experience such "crazy" things as we talk about on these forums, but as a prophetic (rather than Constantinian, oh lord i hope i spelled that right) Christian, and a bit of a nut to be honest, I HUNGER for these experiences. In my own love of God and the holy spirit I seek truth and I seek to enjoy EVERY aspect of the life God has given me.
I feel that dreams are a way for us to have amazing transcendental experiences without ever ingesting a drug and thus hindering our spiritual walk, and moreover the fact that we are capable of lucid dreaming proves that we would never need to ingest such drugs to experience the full range of conscious experience.
An angel of the lord visited Joseph (husband of Mary) in a dream to tell him that the conception was in fact miraculous, now i don't know about you but that dream would have to have been powerful to convince a man that his fiance, though pregnant, had not cheated on him, so we have confirmation that God will in fact use your dreams to talk to you when he wants to.
At the same time I acknowledge that our dreaming realities are a place of VERY high spiritual activity, it says in the word that Satan stalks believers like a hungry lion on ALL fronts so he is perfectly capable of influencing you in your dreams, but if we are saved and love God, to be honest i think he would keep us safe from anything, especially if we are doing so in search of his love.

In keeping with our transcendental experiences, God loves us to be happy, but he doesn't like us to be filled with rage; he likes us to feel his love and express our own back to him, but he doesn't want us lusting or committing depraved sexual acts, as such i think that while we dream we should continue in the paths that lead us to the joy of God on transcendental levels but we should avoid at all costs those things that cause us something like transcendental rage, or sexual desire.
I asked about lucid dreams last week in church so yay!
In conclusion,i think, God is perfectly fine with you imagining to fire bend as long as you don't start trying to do it in real life

also thank you for posting this thread :D

I am a Christian, I love and follow the Lord but I have never had a lucid dream.
with that being said, if I did lucid dream, I would not do anything different then what I do in my every day life.

sorry to necro this thread a bit... but I wonder why lucid dreaming would be a sin for christians? The bible is dream heavy: Joseph the dreamer, Jacobs dream ladder, And not to mention the three wise men who were traveling from town to town based on the dreams that god was giving them. There are countless other examples of biblical figures using dreams to contact angels and god... I would think that christians would encourage the study of dreams based on this. I'm not a christian but I thought I would point this out.

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Originally Posted by Man of Shred

sorry to necro this thread a bit... but I wonder why lucid dreaming would be a sin for christians? The bible is dream heavy: Joseph the dreamer, Jacobs dream ladder, And not to mention the three wise men who were traveling from town to town based on the dreams that god was giving them. There are countless other examples of biblical figures using dreams to contact angels and god... I would think that christians would encourage the study of dreams based on this. I'm not a christian but I thought I would point this out.

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Lucid dreaming is not a sin for Christians. Most Christians who claim it is are really not very understanding of it... Actions IN lucid dreams can be sinful, yes. Things such as sex would still qualify, although I'm not sure if it would count if the person the action was done with was your spouse. I may check up on that.

But, on for the main topic...

1. I'm the type of person who is trying to love him and follow him as much as I can. I'm in the situation where I'm progressing myself to improve myself. I've been spending months on end trying to improve myself; I'm being generally nicer, more optimistic, & just tomorrow will be reaching the 10th straight week I've gone without watching pornography or masturbating (and thanks to God for it, I spent pretty much every day having to restrain myself, but now I've virtually abolished the desire). I read 2 chapters of the bible every night & try to reread parts that I don't understand, & research them if I can't find an answer. I'm trying my best to improve myself for him & follow him as I can (which is a bit difficult at the age of 14).

2. My philosophy of what I want to do is that I'm keeping away from a lot of the sinful stuff that many others get in for. By this, of course I mean stuff such as having sex and everything of that perverted nature.
I personally don't think actual violence in a lucid dream is sinful. I'm not sure about killing dream characters, because the philosophy behind say, dream sex and dream killing is different. With dream sex, the sin is in the fact that you are... well, having sex. You're commiting adultery & being lustful in that sense, but with the killing aspect, it seems a bit different. That character was non-existent, & nobody is affected. That character had no life in the first place, it was non-existent. Like killing a video game character.

Besides that, I want to use lucid dreaming for sheer entertainment purposes. Fly, visit places in video games & such, make friends with fictional characters, go around doing stuff with them & sparring. One big thing I'm into is socializing with non-existent characters, but I'll keep the reasoning to myself ;).

Wait... so it's ok to kill a dream character but not to have sex with one?

How does that work?

Lust in your heart, even for a non-existent character, is a sin, but murderous intent for that same dream character isn't?

... And if you're dreaming of a woman and want to sex her up but refuse because it would be a sin, didn't you still commit the sin of lust in your heart, and then just refuse to give in to it?

I'm not "going against" the thread... just asking for clarification.

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Originally Posted by Darkmatters

Wait... so it's ok to kill a dream character but not to have sex with one?

How does that work?

Lust in your heart, even for a non-existent character, is a sin, but murderous intent for that same dream character isn't?

... And if you're dreaming of a woman and want to sex her up but refuse because it would be a sin, didn't you still commit the sin of lust in your heart, and then just refuse to give in to it?

I'm not "going against" the thread... just asking for clarification.

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I thought of this too, and I agree with Cybereta wholeheartedly. The thing is, what you do in a lucid dream will not affect other people (unless you are shared dreaming, of course) so the person you really have to watch out for is yourself. Having sex with someone in a dream will affect you no matter how you try to put a spin on it. Physically there is simply no escape from the effects that act will have. Violence/killing in a dream, however, doesn't necessarily have to affect you so negatively. It depends on your motivations and your resulting actions. If you wave your hand and cause the dream character to crumple to the ground dead, that's one thing. Heck, even if you personally beat the crap out of them and throw them out the window it doesn't have to be a bad thing. But if you go into great detail about the killing and it becomes a horrendously graphic and brutal experience, then that's when it becomes an issue, because that kind of action will affect your brain. You'll wake up feeling like you really killed someone in the worst possible way. Not so if you just toss some people around a bit. I know when I've done that it was just for my own enjoyment to exercise control over my environment; I felt no hatred for any of the DC's I was demolishing, and it wasn't graphic when they died. They were just like ragdolls to be thrown around.

If that's not how it is for you though, and you can't help but kill with hatred and blood and gore and brutality, then that's when I'd say the action becomes wrong. Make sense?

So, murder is ok as long as you don't enjoy it too much? Wouldn't that be true for sex too?

What if you marry a girl in a dream, then is it ok to have sex with her? The mechanics of Christian thought censorship are fascinatingly complex.

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Originally Posted by Darkmatters

lolwut

So, murder is ok as long as you don't enjoy it too much? Is that true for sex too? Would it be ok to just make out? Or maybe just stick the tip in?

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You miss the point entirely. I was trying to make it easier to figure out by going at the problem in reverse order. Basically you can look at something's effect on you to help you understand if it's good or not. If you do something--anything--in a dream and it causes you to wake up with the wrong attitudes/thoughts/emotions, then it is something you need to avoid; no need to try to justify it.

This is of course not the ONLY qualification/standard/whathaveyou, but it was the first that came to mind. And in keeping with that qualification, you can strike sex off the 'good list' because it's humanly impossible to carry out that act without bringing improper attitudes/thoughts/emotions to mind (unless you are married and doing it with your spouse in the dream--that's different, though I'd still say it's dangerous. Just do it in real life for goodness sakes, it will be better for both of you). Killing, however, is not one of those things that is absolutely right or wrong; there are other things that go into it. Cold blooded murder = wrong, ragdoll destruction = probably harmless.

I'm obviously condensing here; try to see my point instead of finding the loophole in my short examples (not saying you are, but it seems like tons of people do that to me all the time, so I've started to just anticipate it. It's annoying :P)

Ok I apologize - my response was pretty sarcastic. (even after I edited it above).

Sorry to keep editing this, but I've been thinking about it, and it occurs to me - killing is actually not prescribed against in the commandments, only murder... therefore it would be fine to kill as long as it's in self defense. Or possibly as long as it's an enemy, as in war. Or not human. Or I suppose technically if it's a heathen or non-Christian?

I was about to also write that having sex should be alright too as long as it's not with a human, but that would be facetious. Adultery or lusting in your heart for anyone or anything, even a fuzzy, would be against the commandments. Man, Christians got it rough! Thank god for non-lucid sex dreams eh?

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Originally Posted by Darkmatters

Ok I apologize - my response was pretty sarcastic. (even after I edited it above).

But even if I look at it completely impartially, isn't there a commandment that says "thou shalt not murder"?

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No harm done; I've been crazy busy today and my brain is fried, so I'm probably not doing a great job explaining anyway :P

Basically I'm just trying to say that killing does not HAVE to be wrong. Yes there is a command "thou shalt not kill" but there is not a command "thou shalt not be a warrior". God supported and even commanded many wars be fought as a form of much deserved judgment in the Old Testament. But this wasn't cold-blooded killing; the attitude was completely different. I don't think you're going to find the righteous warrior attitude in many people's dreams, though...that was just an example of the difference the driving attitude makes.

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The mechanics of Christian thought censorship are fascinatingly complex.

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Sadly this is true, and an evidence that Christians still have to deal with weak minds and bodies until death. It's not like God didn't give us the answers, but like idiots we a lot of times either ignore it or forget it or let stuff get in the way so we don't see it. As a result, stuff gets way overcomplicated. It definitely does need to change.

Yeah, I'll admit I did come into this with the wrong attitude, but once I started really trying to think it through from a Christian viewpoint (or at least my impression of such, without benefit of much time spent contemplating it realistically) I see how difficult of an issue it is. I must say, I like Erii's attitude! Dreams are dreams... have fun!

I would feel a need to kill too if I was so sexually repressed.

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Originally Posted by Spartiate

I would feel a need to kill too if I was so sexually repressed.

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One thing that people don't seem to know, mostly because it's extremely uncommon, is that there is actually a point where your repressed sexual desires don't actually change you anymore. I.E. They essentially stop existing. I've learned this firsthand. If you're able to be determined enough to get rid of your sexual desires, after a while, you simply don't HAVE any. You can still sort of "unbottle" them and allow them to return, but it is possible to reach the point where your repressed sexual desires don't actually affect you in any way. This may be partially because they don't bottle up at ALL because you've gotten rid of the desire completely, so it can't build up anymore in the first place, but it's sort of the same principal. In a sense, you can reach the point where it's like you're a kid again- back when you were 5 or 6, & you never had any sexual desires in the first place.
Don't take anything I say as gospel though; I'm talking from personal experience, and I'm only fourteen, so yeah.

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Originally Posted by cyberetah

One thing that people don't seem to know, mostly because it's extremely uncommon, is that there is actually a point where your repressed sexual desires don't actually change you anymore. I.E. They essentially stop existing. I've learned this firsthand. If you're able to be determined enough to get rid of your sexual desires, after a while, you simply don't HAVE any.

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Wow that sounds like fun. Boy do I envy you.

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Originally Posted by Spartiate

Wow that sounds like fun. Boy do I envy you.

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I'm hoping that's not sarcastic :P
But assuming it's not, it's not really fun not having the desires. It definitely wasn't fun HAVING them; It was more of a pain than anything else. It's just extremely convenient. Also helps a lot with talking to girls from what I've seen, because I can focus on actually talking to a girl instead of half talking with her and half picturing her naked.

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Originally Posted by Spartiate

I would feel a need to kill too if I was so sexually repressed.

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Sexual looseness does not equal sexual freedom...

The real joy comes from saving yourself for one person whom you can then dedicate yourself to completely. That's something Christians and non-Christians alike can agree on.

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Originally Posted by LiveInTheDream

you can strike sex off the 'good list' because it's humanly impossible to carry out that act without bringing improper attitudes/thoughts/emotions to mind

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Sorry, but that's a strictly judeo-christian ideology that holds no ground outside of those religions. The truth is, the natural human being doesnt feel guilty or bad for having sex in a dream. You need a book called a bible, or a preacher who's actually a closet gay pervert, to give you that sort of shame.

Plenty of people have sex in dreams and feel no negative thoughts afterwards. They enjoyed it and moved on with their lives.

That shame, its all in your head.

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Originally Posted by juroara

Sorry, but that's a strictly judeo-christian ideology that holds no ground outside of those religions. The truth is, the natural human being doesnt feel guilty or bad for having sex in a dream. You need a book called a bible, or a preacher who's actually a closet gay pervert, to give you that sort of shame.

Plenty of people have sex in dreams and feel no negative thoughts afterwards. They enjoyed it and moved on with their lives.

That shame, its all in your head.

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You started off in the right direction...yes, you're correct, you need a book called the Bible. And yes, a lot of preachers these days are just as bad as the people they are condemning on a daily basis, and those people I detest right along with you. Not all of them are that way though.

The problem with your statement though, is that shame is not all in your head, shame is all in your heart, that part of you which makes you who you really are; what you feel 'inside' and not just what you think 'inside'. But there is a problem with that, too: not everyone even feels shame for their wrongdoings in their hearts (e.g. illicit sex, in this case). The reason? Well, it's like being blind. If you're blind, you wouldn't be afraid if a semi truck was rushing right towards you at 100 mph, because you couldn't see it coming! A seeing person would immediately recognize the danger, be compelled to do something about it (fear), and get out of the way.

Every human being is born 'blind' in this sense. That's why the Bible is necessary. Since we can't 'see' to begin with, the Bible 'sees' for us. It shatters our blind minds and hearts with the reality that we could not see, and then God can make us fully 'un-blind' so that it is possible for us to believe what we read and begin to truly live--without shame.

Main moral of this story: you haven't known true shamelessness until you have known true shamefulness first, and then turned your back on that which is shameful because of it.

Ohh...so the only way to know God is by reading the bible?

Out of all the Christian idealogy, that's the lamest and the most inexcusable. You just confined an omnipresent, all-loving, all-powerful God to a book edited and published by humans. Next you'll say the only way to go to heaven is to be profess that God had to kill his only son, else you burn in hell for all eternity. What a lame god.

A true omnipresent God is inherent in nature, and in yourself. This is the God that Jesus believes in.

"Split a piece of wood; I am there.

Lift up the stone, and you will find me there"

Thousands of Christians to profess to have read and believe in the bible and have never once questioned or made any effort to understand Jesus message in these words. Because if you truly understand them, it completely negates the necessity of a central church, religion, and even the necessity of placing a human made book on a pedestal as a holy item. So much for the bible unblinding people. All they ever did was use it to make a systematical intellectual approach to God while denying everything Jesus taught. Not to mention it was used to justify mass murder.

There is nothing you need to read. There is no church you need to attend. There is no group you need to join. And there is nothing you need to do. Nor is this message illustrated by Jesus copyrighted to Christianity. Its as old as recorded time.

PS. I didn't say that shame was intellectual. I said that that shame (the concept that one should be ashamed for having sex with an imaginary dream character) is all in your head. Because it is a concept.

{sigh}

I just spent an hour typing out a response and then I lost my wifi and so my post got lost too :bang:
I'll have to try again later...

Juroaras' arguments for God are actually much more compelling than those of the standard bible-Christians, plus don't involve the implanted shame that the church uses to control its minions. Win!