Thread: Question for Atheists.

Originally Posted by * Diamond Eyes *

Satan was one of Gods angels. His angel name was Lucifer. Satan was given to him after he had fallen. Satan means (adversary, enemy, accuser).He rebelled because he wanted more power than God, and tried to dethrone God. That is why he Got kicked out of heaven, and one third of the angels fell with him, which are now demons. Satan and his demons are still active today, trying everything they can to get people to follow them instead of God and the angles. God has given everyone free will, which is where the choice comes in. It is everyone's own choice to follow him.

Why doesn't god just smite his ass and have done with it? "Hey, folks, sorry to barge in, but I just smited Satan. Welcome to paradise. Can you guys maybe sort of love me now? I know I was kind of a grumpy bastard all those years ago, and many have died at my hands, but Satan is dead. Hugs?"

And the bible, yes it was written by about 40 men, and over a period of about 1600 years, but it was all inspired by God. From different accounts of his life and his teachings. Before Jesus died, there was a different system that God had in place, which was a set of laws for people to obey. God showed himself in different ways, because he hadn't yet sent his son to forgive our sins. God actually spoke to people and did miracles and signs because that's what that generation needed. But then God sent his son Jesus, to die for everyone's sins. So that now in the New Testament, all you have to do is confess your sins and repent and you will be saved..all the laws from the old testament aren't relevant anymore.

Am I the only one who finds it really sort of scary that he's treating the bible as absolute fact? I can't think of shakier grounds to base an entire belief system on. There is no solid evidence that the bible is factual, accurate, or literal. None at all.

The hypocrisy is extremely disturbing. Basically, the bible says you can be a total prick your entire life, but as long as you confess your sins on your death bed and accept Jesus, you go to paradise. You can kill and steal and do horrible, unspeakable acts, but if you just exploit the magic loophole, you get into heaven. Riiiiiiiight.

The bible had to be translated because it was written in Hebrew, so everyone could read it. What I meant is that there could be a few small translation issues, but the main points are still there. Everything you need to know is still there. Its a guide line of how you're supposed to live.

How can you be sure? When the bible was translated into English, some many thousands of words were added to the English language, as words did not exist for many of the things in the original bible. It was one of the largest mass addings to the English language in history. How do we even know if the meanings match?

As I said above, large miracles arent needed anymore, because now we have the bible to tell us everything about God that we need to know. God did miracles in the Old Testament because the people didnt have a bible or Jesus yet. But God still reveals himself. Most people try to dismiss it as something else. Some examples are..

Oh, the bible explains all? Then why are there so many misunderstandings/contradictions/multiple interpretations? I think a couple of well-placed miracles would clear some stuff up, personally. You know, part the ocean, stop a tsunami, etc. With over 16% of the population being nonreligious, and almost no two people having the exact same interpretation of the bible, I think a miracle is in order.

Nature, God has revealed certain truths about Himself through nature or the created order. Psalm 19:1-6 states, “The heavens are telling of the glory of God; and their expanse is declaring the work of His hands.” Nature tells everyone about God’s glory and that everything is made by Him. Romans 1:18-21 declares, “For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse.” According to this text, nature reveals that God exists and that He is powerful.

That is delightfully vague, and surprise, uses the bible as the only source of evidence. Must I really repeat that the bible is an absolutely terrible source of evidence? Consider:

Our modern technology has proved the Bible wrong. That means that if there is a God, he didn't write the Bible and the Bible is not his word. If the Bible were the word of God and the Bible is wrong, then God is wrong. And if God can't be wrong, then the Bible, which is wrong, can't be the word of God.

If we were to believe the Bible, then we would have to believe the Earth was created before the stars, which is the wrong order. If the stars were created 10,000 years ago, we wouldn't be able to see stars that are more than 10,000 light years away. That's because if a star was further away than 10,000 light years, the light from that star wouldn't have got here yet. Our galaxy alone is about 100,000 light years across. If the Bible were true, we wouldn't be able to see but 1/10th the way across our own galaxy. We surely wouldn't be able to see other galaxies or galactic clusters or know that the universe is expanding.

I find it interesting how so many selectively quote the bible and reinterpret it in whatever way necessary to fit the times. "Alright, so creation is out, but all that other crap can stay. Except the old testament. Let's get rid of that, too."

If you're going to take the supposed word of god as fact, shouldn't it really be an all-or-nothing deal? And if the bible was merely inspired by god, but written by men who were dead-wrong about observable reality, then how can you expect that they were right about anything else, especially the things we cannot observe (the afterlife, rules to get into heaven, etc)?

Providence, God reveals Himself through His moment-by-moment control of the world.

Really? Because, you know, I'm not seeing any of this control. Can you show me how exactly he controls every moment and every aspect of the world? You know, as opposed to atoms traveling on predictable courses, reacting with other atoms, and adjusting their courses accordingly?

Conscience, God has revealed Himself to everyone through an internal sense of right and wrong. Romans 2:14-15 states that every person has the Law of God “written in their hearts.” This internal compass that alerts us to what is right and wrong points to the Ultimate Lawgiver who determines right and wrong.

Internal compass? Interesting, considering morality is relative. Look at the planet. No two cultures are exactly alike, no two share the same sense of "right" and "wrong." We are products of the societies in which we grew up. If you are taught that murdering is a-okay, you aren't going to wake up one day and suddenly realize that, hey, murdering is wrong.

Dreams, Dreams were often used by God to communicate information (Gen. 20:3; 31:11-13, 24; 40-41). God sent Jacob the dream of the ascending and descending angels on the latter (Gen. 28:10-15). God also gave King Nebuchadnezzar of Babylon important dreams about the coming empires of human history. Daniel interpreted the dreams.

Care to cite some nice, credible evidence outside the bible? Something that clearly goes beyond coincidence/the capabilities of the human mind? There is still much we don't know about the brain. Why is God necessary to send us information in our dreams? If he really wanted to send a message, you think he'd pick something more credible than mental images that are easily forgotten or brushed aside.

Also, once someone become a christian, they will recieve the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit was given to live inside those who believe in Jesus, in order to produce God's character in the life of a believer. In a way that we cannot do on our own, the Holy Spirit will build into our lives love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control.

More assertions. If you interview Christians-turned-atheist and visa versa, I think you'll find that both sets of people live pretty darn satisfactory lives. And self-control? There is a much higher proportion of Christians in prison than there are atheists. Doesn't seem like those people had very good self control at all...nor patience, peace, joy, or anything else that may have kept them from committing a crime worthy of punishment at a state or federal level.

Would you care to cite a source that shows, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that Christians live happier lives than the rest of the world, and that this is due to the holy spirit in particular?

The Holy Spirit also performs a function for non-Christians as well. He convicts people's hearts of God's truth ; how righteous Jesus is -- He died in our place, for our sins; and God's eventual judgment of the world and those who do not know Him. The Holy Spirit tugs on our hearts and minds, asking us to repent and turn to God for forgiveness and a new life.

Not once have I ever had this feeling. Care to cite a source or two detailing this phenomenon?

Fine. I'll admit it. I'm Jesus. My father isn't cooking up some big plan. He just got bored of playing with Earth and went to go fuck about with some other planet.

First off, no its not only confessing your sins and you're home free.. its believing that Jesus is the son of God and that he died on the cross for our sins..and repenting and turning away from sin. You cant just say forgive me then keep on sinning.. you have to genuinely want to change.

And if the bible is a bunch of BS, then where did it come from? Why are there 66 manuscripts just laying around talking about this supposed God and Jesus who really never existed? Because the Bible details historical events, its truthfulness and accuracy are subject to verification like any other historical document. Through both archaeological evidences and other writings, the historical accounts of the Bible have been proven time and time again to be accurate and true. In fact, all the archaeological and manuscript evidence supporting the Bible makes it the best-documented book from the ancient world.

Talking about miracles, say that the ocean did part today..don't you think humans would find some way to discredit it as a miracle and say something like, oh, it was caused by a tsunami, or an earthquake, or a tidal wave, or ..some unknown natural occurrence. If a tsunami was stopped..oh it was luck that the storm died down before it crashed into the land. If someone had cancer then mysteriously it was gone...well it was luck, or some occurrence in the human body that we don't yet know about...If there was some crazy sign in the sky..well, its a government conspiracy, or aliens...If someone heard God talk to them or saw God as a vision, then it would just be a hallucination, or drugs, or some sort of mental disorder. The rainbow is a sign from God, but.. its just the suns rays refracting light through millions of raindrops and a coloured arc appears in the horizon..and I'm not saying that's not true..I'm saying just because science explains it, doesn't mean it didn't come from God.. Science is a tool to explain the world and universe that God created. That doesn't mean that God didn't put it all into place.. and rain, is a form of precipitation in which water falls back to the earth as a liquid...Yes, science can explain it, that doesn't mean that God didn't put the earth and the clouds there for the rain to fall out of..anyways, you get my point.

So exactly what kind of sign or miracle would it take for an atheist to believe that God exists? And what if the shroud of Turin was proved to be the cloth that Jesus was wrapped in? well that doesnt prove that he was the Son of God right? It was just some guy that got hung on the cross..

And if the earth and universe were just created by chance..wouldn't that mean that everything is pretty much pointless? We came into existence by pure luck..there's really no reason for us being here..nothing you do on earth really makes any sort of difference or impact in the long run. You just die and then there's nothing after. The baby that your wife borned isn't a miracle, its just some sort of evolution, but there's no real reason for the baby to be here on the earth..it just kinda happened... There is no higher power that gives us a sense of right and wrong..so wouldn't that mean that anything goes? wouldn't the earth be pure chaos if there was no right and wrong? People could do anything, and get away with it.

Originally Posted by * Diamond Eyes *

And if the earth and universe were just created by chance..wouldn't that mean that everything is pretty much pointless? We came into existence by pure luck..there's really no reason for us being here..nothing you do on earth really makes any sort of difference or impact in the long run. You just die and then there's nothing after. The baby that your wife borned isn't a miracle, its just some sort of evolution, but there's no real reason for the baby to be here on the earth..it just kinda happened... There is no higher power that gives us a sense of right and wrong..so wouldn't that mean that anything goes? wouldn't the earth be pure chaos if there was no right and wrong? People could do anything, and get away with it.

Yes and no...

First off, if we are "just an accident" (which we are) that would mean that existence and everything is just "mysterious", and only pointless if your brain percieves it so.

Yes, things just happen. Why would it be any other way? I mean is there a way to break your existence and peek around it, to even be able to comprehend and define it? As far as we know, thoughts, emotions, concepts, values, ideas of "higher power" are all signals transmitted in your brain, some of which, in the case of self awareness, percieve their own existence.

A sense of right or wrong? Just another though process that evolved because it could. But these thoughts have nothing to do with reality in the sense of "a higher power made them". Things that can think and feel emotions, will have a sense of right and wrong, things that can't (like a coconut that occasionaly "decides" to end a life) don't. So yeah, that means - anything goes. If you decide to kill people, that's your decision. It just might not fit right with many, who will deem it immoral, and then there would be consequences.

"wouldn't the earth be pure chaos if there was no right and wrong? People could do anything, and get away with it."

I don't know where you live, but Earth is in chaos the last time I checked. And it's in chaos even when there is right and wrong at least in certain places and in certain forms. People do anything and they do get away with it. If you're refering to some type of injustice by that last part of the sentence, then as I said: We humans are the ones who percieve and dish out justice. So "getting away with it" just depends on the circumstances, whether somebody will be there to serve justice or not.

Originally Posted by * Diamond Eyes *

And if the bible is a bunch of BS, then where did it come from? Why are there 66 manuscripts just laying around talking about this supposed God and Jesus who really never existed?

Gee, good point. A tornado probably blew through and it just formed itself. A lot of your Bible stories are just rebranded pagan ones. The reason that there are "so many" is because a bunch of them are just stolen, or are simply common themes. Regardless, the amount of books you write about something has nothing to do with how true it is. This is just an appeal to popularity.

Originally Posted by * Diamond Eyes *

Because the Bible details historical events, its truthfulness and accuracy are subject to verification like any other historical document. Through both archaeological evidences and other writings, the historical accounts of the Bible have been proven time and time again to be accurate and true. In fact, all the archaeological and manuscript evidence supporting the Bible makes it the best-documented book from the ancient world.

Which archeological evidence supports your idea of god, exactly? I don't think anyone doubts that some of the things written in the Bible are accounts of factual events. Certainly there is some history mixed in with the mythology, however this serves only to dilute the history, not give credibility to the mythology.

Originally Posted by * Diamond Eyes *

The rainbow is a sign from God, but.. its just the suns rays refracting light through millions of raindrops and a coloured arc appears in the horizon..

Dang skeptics.

Originally Posted by * Diamond Eyes *

and I'm not saying that's not true..I'm saying just because science explains it, doesn't mean it didn't come from God.. Science is a tool to explain the world and universe that God created. That doesn't mean that God didn't put it all into place.. and rain, is a form of precipitation in which water falls back to the earth as a liquid...Yes, science can explain it, that doesn't mean that God didn't put the earth and the clouds there for the rain to fall out of..anyways, you get my point.

I get your point, but where exactly do you see room for god here? If you understand how rain works and why rainbows happen, why do you insist that god "put it all in place"? How do you know he put it in place?

Originally Posted by * Diamond Eyes *

And if the earth and universe were just created by chance..wouldn't that mean that everything is pretty much pointless? We came into existence by pure luck..there's really no reason for us being here..nothing you do on earth really makes any sort of difference or impact in the long run. You just die and then there's nothing after. The baby that your wife borned isn't a miracle, its just some sort of evolution, but there's no real reason for the baby to be here on the earth..it just kinda happened... There is no higher power that gives us a sense of right and wrong..so wouldn't that mean that anything goes? wouldn't the earth be pure chaos if there was no right and wrong? People could do anything, and get away with it.

Allow me to respond to your rhetorical questions with some of my own. Suppose the Earth and universe were created by chance and that everything is "pretty much pointless" and you knew there was no god. How would you behave? Would you suddenly become a vicious, violent savage and steal and kill without a second thought? Would the idea of an absence of god suddenly turn you into a sociopath? Would you just stop caring about your friends, family and yourself?

Think about it. This is a common argument religious people like to give, but it's really pretty silly. First of all, I would suggest that most of your morals and values have a social and personal basis. There is no divinity required to understand the benefits of cooperation. Why do you stop at a red light? Is it because you will be punished if you don't? Or is it also because you know that if you don't stop it will be dangerous for you and others? And to take it further, that if we all ran red lights we would collectively destroy a method of cooperation that serves to keep us all safe. In the abscence of god, friendship doesn't evaporate. Why do you not kill your friends? Is it only because you will be punished? Or is it also because you like them and you don't want them to die?

What worries me about this type of argument isn't what it says about me, it's what it says about the people who make it. The implications seem to be that you only really care about "right" or "wrong" because you know there is someone looking over your shoulder judging you based on your choices. To suggest that the threats or promises from a god or religion is the reason we should cooperate is shallow, selfish, dishonest and misses the point entirely. It is especially so when you're completely unable to meaningfully show that your god even exists. It really does make you seem, well, like a sociopath.

But to tell you the truth, I really don't believe that you think like that. I like to think that most people, including most religious people, don't. I think your beliefs about god are largely tacked-on to your existing beliefs about the universe, morality and people and that the beliefs themselves don't deviate much from mine or from people in general. Rather your god is sort of a garnish to make the dish more appealing. Refering back your example again, you hold the [secular] belief that rainbows are caused by the refraction of sunlight, but also you add on top of that (superfluously and without explanation) that god is the source of rainbows. Likewise with my assumption that you would not kill your friends because you like them and don't want them to die. Again (and excuse me if I'm being too presumptuous) any notions of religious morality are superfluous in the same way. Religion is unnecessary.

But all of this is entirely beside the point. The point is that there is no god. To argue that people "need" to believe in god is not to argue that god exists.


If you don't want to read or respond to this long post, that's okay, but I would still like a reply to these questions:

Originally Posted by Mark75

If humans are incapable of understanding it, how is it that that you know that he exists in another dimension? Can thoughts and intentions exist outside of time? Does god have thoughts or intentions? Can you explain why it is more likely that an incomprehensible god exists as opposed to simply it being a nonsensical idea?

How can you tell that it was inspired by god?

Originally Posted by * Diamond Eyes *

And if the bible is a bunch of BS, then where did it come from?

I am pretty sure there was evidence the bible was not written by anyone who had witnessed the events first hand. Its like there being a fire downtown, and you having to report on it even though you weren't there.

Originally Posted by Mark75
If humans are incapable of understanding it, how is it that that you know that he exists in another dimension? Can thoughts and intentions exist outside of time? Does god have thoughts or intentions? Can you explain why it is more likely that an incomprehensible god exists as opposed to simply it being a nonsensical idea?

How can you tell that it was inspired by god?

Lol, well if God is Omniscient and Omnipotent wouldn't it only make sense that he would be outside of our understanding here on earth? Isn't that what the characteristics of God would be? If God was a human here on earth, then he wouldn't be God. Like I said, time is something that is perceived by humans..If God isn't confined to time, wouldn't that mean that hes in a different dimension? I don't know if thoughts and intentions exist outside of time... I would think that God has thoughts and intentions.. If he did then yea I guess they do exist outside of time. I don't know %100 that God exists..but I believe that he does. Do you know %100 that he doesn't exist? Maybe there isn't solid evidence that he exists, but there isn't solid evidence that he doesn't exist either.

There isn't solid evidence that he exists. But there isn't solid evidence he doesn't exist. Quite right.
I need a lot of evidence of his existence to dedicate my life and my beliefs to him. But I don't need a lot of evidence that supports the theory he doesn't exist, for me not to believe in him, especially since logically its more likely he doesn't exist.
Everyone is always saying God has a plan that we don't know of yet and blah blah. Just sounds like excuses to make up for the fact he doesn't do anything because he doesn't exist.

I'm not sure you know what your god even is. Can you describe it? What is it like and why does it do the things it does?

God doesn't exist, because there is no purpose or need for him in this universe. If he does exist, he is useless.
Heaven is just a story to make us feel a little better about death. Hell is just a way to scare people into not doing bad things on Earth.

Just for fun:

God is not all-powerful as he cannot build a wall he cannot jump

Originally Posted by Mario92

Just for fun:

God is not all-powerful as he cannot build a wall he cannot jump

I like busting out the 'a rock so big he can't lift it' one myself. Personally I find that line of argument to be philosophically unfulfilling, since it's just relating to a non-corporeal, body-less Christian God.

But I guess the core of the point is that the term god is so loaded, in some cases overloaded because once you give an entity omniscience and omnipotence you quickly find situations where the immovable object meets the unstoppable force, you divide by zero and Things Go Badly (tm).