So i had this thought

and my first reaction was to post it on dreamviews!!!!!!

so while i was eating breakfest, specifically corn flakes, i had this thought...hence the title LOL. I was thinking like, we don't really know if anything actually happens after death, so like, whats the point then? It's probably the deepest thought I've had in like my whole life so I had to see what u guys thought. ANyway for a discussion point: Whats the point of life if there is nothing after it??? I might as well end it now because its going to end anyway, right??

The real answer is that there's absolutely no point in life really. There's no greater meaning, purpose, understanding or any other thing. Ultimately you're just a cluster of atoms that happen to work in a certain way.

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Originally Posted by Marvo

The real answer is that there's absolutely no point in life really. There's no greater meaning, purpose, understanding or any other thing. Ultimately you're just a cluster of atoms that happen to work in a certain way.

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You really believe that?

You really believe you're just a lump of atoms? A chemical reaction? Everything you love and support, all that you've enjoyed, all that you've done, is nothing but the byproduct of a natural phenomena?

I don't.

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Originally Posted by René Descartes

I think, therefore I am.

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In addition, I know that I AM more then just another physical trinket on the face of a physical planet. By your logic, no one has anymore significance than a stick.

No offense, but I find that to be completely ludicrous.

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Originally Posted by Noogah

You really believe that?

You really believe you're just a lump of atoms? A chemical reaction? Everything you love and support, all that you've enjoyed, all that you've done, is nothing but the byproduct of a natural phenomena?

I don't.

In addition, I know that I AM more then just another physical trinket on the face of a physical planet. By your logic, no one has anymore significance than a stick.

No offense, but I find that to be completely ludicrous.

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I wouldn't expect anything else from you, and the answer is yes. There is absolutely nothing in life that tells me that we're anything more than what I explained in my initial post. Nothing at all.

While I certainly believe that nothing matters in life, it is impossible to live by such "rules", because of how we work. Just like how you don't follow all the rules of your sacred book.

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Originally Posted by grasshoppa

Whats the point of life if there is nothing after it??? I might as well end it now because its going to end anyway, right??

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Sigh, life is wasted on some.....

Look : Even though some beleive we are just a complex chemical reaction, and that even free will does not exist, I think we can at least all agree that some things we expereince along the way are good and fun.

The meaning of life is simple really :

Get laid as much as you possibly can with as many people as you possibly can. Try everything at least once. Eat and drink everything you enjoy regually. Travel everywhere. Take mind altering substances. Indulge in all things of sense and rapture.

Embrace hedonism.

Not that hard really is it.....

I agree completely with Marvo. [edit] and evildoctor. although, I think one should practice some moderation, but only for optimal experience.

to OP: there is something I have to ask, it's bothered me for awhile, um...what happened to you?

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Originally Posted by Marvo

The real answer is that there's absolutely no point in life really. There's no greater meaning, purpose, understanding or any other thing. Ultimately you're just a cluster of atoms that happen to work in a certain way.

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Sure is reductionist and wrong in here.

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Originally Posted by evildoctor

Sigh, life is wasted on some.....

Look : Even though some beleive we are just a complex chemical reaction, and that even free will does not exist, I think we can at least all agree that some things we expereince along the way are good and fun.

The meaning of life is simple really :

Get laid as much as you possibly can with as many people as you possibly can. Try everything at least once. Eat and drink everything you enjoy regually. Travel everywhere. Take mind altering substances. Indulge in all things of sense and rapture.

Embrace hedonism.

Not that hard really is it.....

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Not the meaning but a very good means to reach it... The way of Hedonism takes a step in the right direction.

On Topic: Yes, the body is a group of molecules, a simple compression of energy. It operates for a matter of time and then returns to the flow of energy. We, me and you, are not our body, we are not our brains or our skin, we're not our muscles or our nerves. We're the life our body lives.
Foe me i've come to understand that the meaning to life is to live. Nothing else, but live to it's fullest. We're the love and the hurt, the hate and the happiness. We are the experience gathered and collected.

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and my first reaction was to post it on dreamviews!!!!!!

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lol

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so while i was eating breakfest, specifically corn flakes, i had this thought...hence the title LOL. I was thinking like, we don't really know if anything actually happens after death, so like, whats the point then? It's probably the deepest thought I've had in like my whole life so I had to see what u guys thought. ANyway for a discussion point: Whats the point of life if there is nothing after it??? I might as well end it now because its going to end anyway, right??

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No, this is illogical. If there is no inherent quality in living life now, why would life in the future (after death) give your life any quality either?

The fact is there is quality in life. No, there is probably not any inherent meaning to the universe, which means that we're alone in the universe. For some reason we have a problem coping with that but it's not really a negative thing. We make our own meaning in life. Whether that's to improve life for other people or just to have a good time.

This philosophy is called existentialism, it's a reaction to nihilism.

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Originally Posted by Noogah

No offense, but I find that to be completely ludicrous.

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As a side note, "I think therefore I am" is somewhat outdated.

If you want something wholly more convincing, "I experience therefore I am"

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Originally Posted by Xei

This philosophy is called existentialism, it's a reaction to nihilism.

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what is the difference between existentialism and hedonism? and what exactly is the difference between existentialism and nihilism? I would think that the former is a more positive form of the latter, but I don't know...I'm sorry, I've read and read about both and I still don't fully understand either (especially existentialism).

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Originally Posted by nerve

what is the difference between existentialism and hedonism? and what exactly is the difference between existentialism and nihilism? I would think that the former is a more positive form of the latter, but I don't know...I'm sorry, I've read and read about both and I still don't fully understand either (especially existentialism).

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Have you read any actual books, or just stuff you find on the internet?

key differences:

Hedonism's main claim is that only pleasure and pain can motivate us and that we should live our lives based on the pursuit of pure pleasure.

Existentialism has a lot of variations depending on who you're reading. but typically the model based on someone like Sartre[which is very very different to people like Kierkergaard or even Heidegger, who is somewhere nearabouts] is mainly about freedom. Sartre argues that freedom is basically a universal authority and that what makes humanity is that man is free. Freedom and holding the reigns of one's own destiny is the universal nature of man.

Nihilism can be 'Moral Nihilism' or 'Existential Nihilism', and most nihilism we speak of is moral nihilism. Even though I've actually read Beyond Good and Evil, I don't feel fully qualified to spell out the clear differences between these ideas and forms of existentialism. Nihilism is in a way a form of existentialism, but since Nietzsche, philosophers have developed massively on the ideas.

So just by reading those very very rough ideas you can get an idea of differences.


What you must must must bear in mind though is that none of these are set doctrines really, and are all merely names applied to ideas of various thinkers and works, so naturally there is massive variation in ideas.

So we shouldn't really think about things like existentialism and its difference to nihilism, rather, Sartre, and how what he says at one particular time in one book is in contrast to later claims by him or whatevs. When you're being really detailed.



I'm being very rough, and very rough is all you'll likely find on the internet.

So if you genuinely want to pursue some of this stuff, read some books. Existentialism and Humanism by Sartre is very easy really, and not long. I wouldn't recommend reading much Nietzsche though, as he can be very tricky to understand. Read nietzsche but first read whatever introductory philosophy books and more advanced stuff you can. it's no good diving into nietzsche if you know nothing about the traditions of philosophy.



If you really must use the internet to read about these things, I can recommend no site more than Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy.

http://plato.stanford.edu/

If you stick to that, you'll be in pretty good hands, as that has some great stuff on, but is still really just rough guides.


Have a look at some Camus as well if you like existentialism. I think he may have actually denied being an existentialist, but he's worth a very hard look.

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Originally Posted by Noogah

You really believe that?

You really believe you're just a lump of atoms? A chemical reaction? Everything you love and support, all that you've enjoyed, all that you've done, is nothing but the byproduct of a natural phenomena?


I don't.

In addition, I know that I AM more then just another physical trinket on the face of a physical planet. By your logic, no one has anymore significance than a stick.

No offense, but I find that to be completely ludicrous.

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The natural phenomena is everything in existence as we define it. I'd think twice before calling it "nothing but". Only those who are ignorant enough to think they understand anything at all like to say things like "just lumps of atoms, chemical reactions" or think of the universe in terms of significance. An atom, a chemical reaction... In what way are they not amazing? In what way is it not amazing that this condensed energy following certain laws that we can't even begin to comprehend, ends up creating a thought which then goes to great lenghts to deny it's origin and create another, in it's own make-believe "thought universe".

I think being nothing more than "just a lump of atoms and chemical reactions", or holding the "significance of a stick", as you like to call it, is as amazing as it can get. I think that I wouldn't find anything else as existentially pleasing as this. Seriously though. Am I the only one who doesn't take the "right" to be offended by the physical, chemical or sticks and then taking an absolute standpoint of KNOWING that I AM more? I'm not saying that I am. But I think those who delude themselves with the imaginary are missing out on reality. Perhaps not though, perhaps my experience of the universe matches some priests experince of God.

It always makes me think how crazy the world really is. A person who believes in Angels and demons is sane and wise, a person who sees reality as it presents itself is ludicrus. Since when is having no more significance than a stick ludicrus?

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Originally Posted by Marvo

There is absolutely nothing in life that tells me that we're anything more than what I explained in my initial post. Nothing at all.

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But there is a problem. A stick simply isn't. It is only a lump of atoms. By your logic, humans are also just a lump of atoms. Therefore, by your logic, we are not. However, you are. And if a lump of atoms isn't, then what is cannot possibly be isn't. Unless of course you will argue that you don't exist, then I guess it's a different story.

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Originally Posted by Marvo

Just like how you don't follow all the rules of your sacred book.

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I support them all, albeit at times I fail to follow all. That isn't the point of Christianity anymore anyways. Your mixing up Jewish tradition with New Testament Christianity.

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Originally Posted by Marvo

The real answer is that there's absolutely no point in life really. There's no greater meaning, purpose, understanding or any other thing. Ultimately you're just a cluster of atoms that happen to work in a certain way.

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Ultimately you're everything and nothing.

:)

Nice post grasshoppa, don't worry about death and that... it's all in our heads.. If life was going to end, then why hasn't it ended? It can't...

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Originally Posted by Marvo

The real answer is that there's absolutely no point in life really. There's no greater meaning, purpose, understanding or any other thing. Ultimately you're just a cluster of atoms that happen to work in a certain way.

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This.

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Originally Posted by Noogah

You really believe that?

You really believe you're just a lump of atoms? A chemical reaction? Everything you love and support, all that you've enjoyed, all that you've done, is nothing but the byproduct of a natural phenomena?

I don't.

In addition, I know that I AM more then just another physical trinket on the face of a physical planet. By your logic, no one has anymore significance than a stick.

No offense, but I find that to be completely ludicrous.

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The only thing that separates us from sticks is a greater degree of complexity. We are matter capable of reproducing...that's really the only difference. Why should there be any sort of supernatural factor at all, when we can explain a great deal about the human body and mind with science? What we don't understand is slowly being uncovered by science, and any evidence for a supernatural explanation (such as a soul) is waning. Similarly, why should humans have a purpose at all? Thus far, it seems that life has been little more than increasing complexity...perhaps mankind as a whole has some sort of purpose, but then again, maybe not. We could be one great, cosmic accident, after all. Who knows?

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Originally Posted by evildoctor

Sigh, life is wasted on some.....

Look : Even though some beleive we are just a complex chemical reaction, and that even free will does not exist, I think we can at least all agree that some things we expereince along the way are good and fun.

The meaning of life is simple really :

Get laid as much as you possibly can with as many people as you possibly can. Try everything at least once. Eat and drink everything you enjoy regually. Travel everywhere. Take mind altering substances. Indulge in all things of sense and rapture.

Embrace hedonism.

Not that hard really is it.....

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I agree with most of that, with the qualification below:

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Originally Posted by nerve

I agree completely with Marvo. [edit] and evildoctor. although, I think one should practice some moderation, but only for optimal experience.

to OP: there is something I have to ask, it's bothered me for awhile, um...what happened to you?

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I see future problems with developing a drug habit...moderation is for the optimization of life. :)

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Originally Posted by MementoMori

Not the meaning but a very good means to reach it... The way of Hedonism takes a step in the right direction.

On Topic: Yes, the body is a group of molecules, a simple compression of energy. It operates for a matter of time and then returns to the flow of energy. We, me and you, are not our body, we are not our brains or our skin, we're not our muscles or our nerves. We're the life our body lives.
Foe me i've come to understand that the meaning to life is to live. Nothing else, but live to it's fullest. We're the love and the hurt, the hate and the happiness. We are the experience gathered and collected.

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I agree with most of this. Live live to its best, squeeze it for every drop of pleasure (long-lasting happiness, not instant gratification, necessarily). We have no evidence for an afterlife...you get what you get. (Take this debate to the other thread, please).

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Originally Posted by Xei

lol
No, this is illogical. If there is no inherent quality in living life now, why would life in the future (after death) give your life any quality either?

The fact is there is quality in life. No, there is probably not any inherent meaning to the universe, which means that we're alone in the universe. For some reason we have a problem coping with that but it's not really a negative thing. We make our own meaning in life. Whether that's to improve life for other people or just to have a good time.

This philosophy is called existentialism, it's a reaction to nihilism.

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I'm fairly certain I agree with most of this...

Now, some view the possibility of a lack of an afterlife as troubling, disturbing, etc. but keep this in mind: you won't be around for any of it. You live, you die, and no more, not even an eternity of nothingness. The collection of experiences that is you ultimately dies and is eroded by the sands of time. This is not to say that life is absolutely pointless and everyone should just kill themselves now; indeed, quite the opposite is true. Go nuts! Your time is ticking...do something with it.

The point of life is love and to do good to other people. There is an afterlife you are an eternal soul.

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Originally Posted by Praise

The point of life is love and to do good to other people. There is an afterlife you are an eternal soul.

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First sentence: Top tier

Second sentence: Ruining and belittling first sentence tier.

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Originally Posted by Praise

The point of life is love and to do good to other people.

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I agree with this.

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There is an afterlife you are an eternal soul.

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I do not agree with this. I believe we did some debating in the other thread and reached a general consensus of "nobody knows jack shit about the afterlife." Please stop referring to it as if it is absolute truth.

My source tells of many people that have had near death experiences and told of what happens to them after they were dead. Before they were revived. I believe that this is evidence of life after death.

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Originally Posted by Praise

My source tells of many people that have had near death experiences and told of what happens to them after they were dead. Before they were revived. I believe that this is evidence of life after death.

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I am Aslan, the great lion.

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Originally Posted by Praise

My source tells of many people that have had near death experiences and told of what happens to them after they were dead. Before they were revived. I believe that this is evidence of life after death.

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Evidence ≠ proof. This is an unexplained phenomena, and is in no way conclusive proof for the existence of an afterlife.

/debate

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Originally Posted by Mario92

Evidence ≠ proof. This is an unexplained phenomena, and is in no way conclusive proof for the existence of an afterlife.

/debate

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I am Belial, the beautiful and meek.

Mario anything can be called unexplained if you choose not to believe in it. It's only unexplained to you because it does not fit into your belief system. The sources are perfectly valid for the conclusion of an afterlife in my opinion.

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Originally Posted by Praise

Mario anything can be called unexplained if you choose not to believe in it. It's only unexplained to you because it does not fit into your belief system. The sources are perfectly valid for the conclusion of an afterlife in my opinion.

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I am Moloch, the great, besmeared with blood.

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Originally Posted by Praise

Mario anything can be called unexplained if you choose not to believe in it. It's only unexplained to you because it does not fit into your belief system. The sources are perfectly valid for the conclusion of an afterlife in my opinion.

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It is an unexplained phenomenon. Person dies. Person views body/sees light at end of the tunnel. Person is revived. Why the hell is this proof for an afterlife? Alright...try this one on for size...

Say the human soul exists. As a person dies, it leaves the body. After two days, it is sucked into a black hole and is utterly obliterated, any shreds of consciousness wiped out of existence.

Prove it doesn't happen.

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Originally Posted by Carôusoul

I am Moloch, the great, besmeared with blood.

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Pleased to meet you, I am Wolverine, the metalcalwed.

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Say the human soul exists. As a person dies, it leaves the body. After two days, it is sucked into a black hole and is utterly obliterated, any shreds of consciousness wiped out of existence.

Prove it doesn't happen.

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You really want the soul and consiousness to be dead. You make up stories as to why it will happen. You try and imagine the nothingness that you think awaits you after death. You rationalize the nonexistence of the soul. You have fallen prey to skepticism. Yet I tell you that you cannot be destroyed. I get my information from higher beings above me that I contact. Yet you do not believe. The truth will prevail. In reality you are very important. You may not realize how important you are or why you are here. But it is for a very distinct purpose. It is a great responsibility. I cannot prove anything to you only you recognize it from within yourself. This is the best I can respond at this time.

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Originally Posted by Praise

You really want the soul and consiousness to be dead. You make up stories as to why it will happen. You try and imagine the nothingness that you think awaits you after death. You rationalize the nonexistence of the soul. You have fallen prey to skepticism. Yet I tell you that you cannot be destroyed.

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Who said I wanted them dead? I'd simply ADORE being able to continue on after I die. All I'm saying is that no one really knows what happens after death, no matter how much you think you have it figured out. I don't pretend to know what happens; I cannot conclude beyond a shadow of a doubt that nothingness is the only thing that happens after death. As of now, however, this solution seems to be the most plausible. Prove me wrong. I'd be ecstatic.

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I get my information from higher beings above me that I contact.

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I do not place great confidence in this statement.

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Yet you do not believe. The truth will prevail. In reality you are very important. You may not realize how important you are or why you are here. But it is for a very distinct purpose. It is a great responsibility.

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Believe me when I say that I would very much like to believe you. For reasons I cannot explain, though, the logic centers of my brain are currently shutting you down. For the time being, I am left to conclude simply that "I don't know."

From my experience I would definitely say that you continue on. You have my word on that. Whatever that means. As long as you are looking for truth you are doing well anyway. You will eventually find out for sure. As long as you live your life best you can. When I say I get information from beings I know that is not scientific to say that. But that is how I look for the truth I ask for it.

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Originally Posted by Praise

From my experience I would definitely say that you continue on. You have my word on that. Whatever that means. As long as you are looking for truth you are doing well anyway. You will eventually find out for sure. As long as you live your life best you can. When I say I get information from beings I know that is not scientific to say that. But that is how I look for the truth I ask for it.

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Fret not; I shall always be questioning as best I can. I, too, seek truth. And yeah, I'm definitely going to live life to the fullest. :)

I'll see if I can get some sources on the latest scientific discoveries. I think there's some things you might be interested in looking at.

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Originally Posted by Noogah

But there is a problem. A stick simply isn't. It is only a lump of atoms. By your logic, humans are also just a lump of atoms.

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Yup.

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Therefore, by your logic, we are not. However, you are.

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That's very vague. How do you know that I am? How do you know that a stick isn't? What does it even mean "to be"?

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And if a lump of atoms isn't, then what is cannot possibly be isn't. Unless of course you will argue that you don't exist, then I guess it's a different story.

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This doesn't make too much sense. Are you saying that a stick doesn't exist? My meaning, is that I exist just as much as a stick, or a rock, or a carbon atom exists. No more, no less.

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I support them all, albeit at times I fail to follow all. That isn't the point of Christianity anymore anyways.

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That is what I meant :)

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Originally Posted by Praise

You really want the soul and consiousness to be dead. You make up stories as to why it will happen. You try and imagine the nothingness that you think awaits you after death. You rationalize the nonexistence of the soul. You have fallen prey to skepticism. Yet I tell you that you cannot be destroyed. I get my information from higher beings above me that I contact. Yet you do not believe. The truth will prevail. In reality you are very important. You may not realize how important you are or why you are here. But it is for a very distinct purpose. It is a great responsibility. I cannot prove anything to you only you recognize it from within yourself. This is the best I can respond at this time.

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can't you admit, that you yourself really want the soul and consciousness to be alive? do you not cling to your religious beliefs? it goes both ways.

I myself have gone through many beliefs, and in a short period of time. I was once a born again christian, until I really started questioning, and more and more of the religion made less and less sense. I've settled into something like nihilism-existentialism/hedonism/pantheism. not because it's what I want to believe, but this is what makes sense and seems reasonable to me. and for once in my life, I feel quite comfortable. I feel happy.

am I deliberately denying god because I don't want to be held accountable for my actions, because I just want to do whatever I want? absolutely not. you don't know how long and hard I've struggled with this, how long I held on to god, how all I wanted, honestly, desperately, was the truth.

as far as what happens after I die, I currently believe that I'll simply cease to exist. this *happens* to coincide with what I'd like to believe, because even though I'm quite young, I feel...weary. I'd rather not have another life after I die, even if it is "heaven." it wasn't always this way, for awhile I was actually terrified of nonexistence; eventually I just realized it is nothing to be afraid of, and actually sounds quite nice (eternal peace). but it's not like I have a choice, and I know this.

I guess the point I'm trying to make is, when it comes to beliefs, there are some people out there that aren't clinging to theirs despite all reason, and are more than willing (or even desperate) to hear other people's viewpoints. also, beliefs are -not- a choice. a person comes to a belief from their experience. they can't just up and decide to believe something, they must be convinced, by whatever means.

sometime ago, I decided to walk to work, and on the way I stopped by a church and had a brief conversation with someone who worked there. he asked me this: if you were to be hit by a car on your way to work, and died, what would you say to god at heaven's gate? after thinking for a few minutes, I answered: I was looking for you, but you simply didn't give me enough time. he was surprised, he didn't know what to say. I guess he never got a response like that before...

anyway, my question to you is, after explaining all that: if I died right now, do you honestly believe I'd suffer in hell for eternity?

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Originally Posted by Carôusoul

Have you read any actual books, or just stuff you find on the internet?

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awh, don't be a dick :D

yes, I have read more than just what's on the internet, albeit not a whole lot. just a few general philosophy books, which actually I guess isn't much better than internet. but my point is, I do/will read books.

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key differences:

Hedonism's main claim is that only pleasure and pain can motivate us and that we should live our lives based on the pursuit of pure pleasure.

Existentialism has a lot of variations depending on who you're reading. but typically the model based on someone like Sartre[which is very very different to people like Kierkergaard or even Heidegger, who is somewhere nearabouts] is mainly about freedom. Sartre argues that freedom is basically a universal authority and that what makes humanity is that man is free. Freedom and holding the reigns of one's own destiny is the universal nature of man.

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oh, my god, I almost bought Sartre's Being and Nothingness but I flipped through it and I'm sorry but it's way over my head. maybe I was just distracted that day, but I read a few lines here and there and was just like...what? I feel fucking retarded, and I hate it so much. I really want to understand all this. I guess I just need to keep reading. probably should go to college. I don't know, I live smack in the middle of Arkansas, I'm surrounded by the most ignorant people there are, and I do NOT want to be like them. it's depressing :(

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So if you genuinely want to pursue some of this stuff, read some books. Existentialism and Humanism by Sartre is very easy really, and not long. I wouldn't recommend reading much Nietzsche though, as he can be very tricky to understand. Read nietzsche but first read whatever introductory philosophy books and more advanced stuff you can. it's no good diving into nietzsche if you know nothing about the traditions of philosophy.

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thanks for the tip, although I did just buy his The Gay Science. haven't started on it yet. but I'll get that book, and look into Camus.

existentialism doesn't really appeal to me from what I've gathered, but it seems so complicated, I don't even know. the only thing I'm fairly sure of when in comes to philosophy is determinism. that I will argue for.

anyway, I appreciate your taking the time to post all that for me, thankyou.

ALSO!!! I love when I take time to type up long sincere posts and don't get a reply :D

(wheeeere is Praise)

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Originally Posted by nerve

oh, my god, I almost bought Sartre's Being and Nothingness but I flipped through it and I'm sorry but it's way over my head. maybe I was just distracted that day, but I read a few lines here and there and was just like...what? I feel fucking retarded, and I hate it so much. I really want to understand all this. I guess I just need to keep reading. probably should go to college.

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Certainly go to college if you really want to understand this stuff on a kind of life changing level. The thing is with most academic philosophy is that there are varying degrees of difficulty, massively so. I like to think nowadays I can manage most books, but there are some I just can't finish, namely Heidegger's Being and Time, which is fucking monstrous. But the key is patience.

Don't expect to be able to read through and understand because often the ideas just aren't that simple. I justt today finished reading a relatively short ook by Wittgenstein, but it took me a decent while to read simply because every bit I found my self reading and re reading til I actually really understood it.

And this is what sadly is required to get to the true core of most philosophy. The positive thing is that more recent stuff is often easier. And there are some great modern books that are alot easier to read. Namely anything by contemporary-ish philosophers, like Thomas Nagel. I can't recommend him enough.

Of course it is neccessary to read some of the real difficult classics, because there is a level of insight you can gain pretty much unparalleled by any introductory books or companion guide.

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Originally Posted by nerve

thanks for the tip, although I did just buy his The Gay Science. haven't started on it yet. but I'll get that book, and look into Camus.

existentialism doesn't really appeal to me from what I've gathered, but it seems so complicated, I don't even know. the only thing I'm fairly sure of when in comes to philosophy is determinism. that I will argue for.

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Try not to form strong opinions on any idea without really investigating it first. Thankfully it looks like you're humble enough to understand this. Which is very good indeed.

Like I said, I really wouldn't recommend diving into Nietzsche until you know what's what elsewhere. Because for starters he's kinda tricky if you aren't used to the kind of writing, and a lot of his stuff is kinda contextual to philosophy as a field.

If it's at all possible, and you are really serious about the subject, look into reading as much as possible, and if you are serious I can put some thought into good books to start with and tell you. But then again if you just want to dip in and see the lay of the land, read some introductory books and summaries etc, which again I can probably give you some help with.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by nerve

I guess I just need to keep reading. probably should go to college. I don't know, I live smack in the middle of Arkansas, I'm surrounded by the most ignorant people there are, and I do NOT want to be like them. it's depressing :(

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Yeah I can imagine how you feel. Although thankfully I'm not too experienced with it.

In such desolate lands though, books should be your salvation. Really, there are centuries of worldwide wisdom there, and they are absolutely invaluable. Until you decide to move somewhere else or maybe even go to college, read read read. :3


Sorry if I come across at all patronising. But I really think more people should get interested really in this stuff, and I am pretty passionate about it all myself.

I think you all missed the point of this thread. It was supposed to be a parody of Idolfan's threads.

Ah, I see it now.

Carousoul, you seem to think that people can only reach an understanding of philosophies threw reading others take on them, or that you can only know by learning from others, YOU ARE WRONG!

You could not be more wrong. There is an ability to learn from ones experiences and if one person can come to learn something in there life, what makes you think the only way anyone else could learn of it is to read a book or be taught it from that person?! So you're saying i would HAVE to go to college to get a better understanding of the universe and other such great mysteries? where the fuck did the "teachers" learn it? Was there always a "college" and a "teacher"? Yes knowledge is passed down and added to but that doesn't mean you HAVE to attend a college to learn said knowledge. You act like anyong that hasn't attended a college and tries to talk about the way the universe works should be shot in the face... Get Over Yourself! Einstein didn't go to college and he guessed shit about space and got it right.

Edit: ^ please excuse the mess on post #39

Quote:

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Originally Posted by MementoMori

Carousoul, you seem to think that people can only reach an understanding of philosophies threw reading others take on them, or that you can only know by learning from others, YOU ARE WRONG!

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by MementoMori

So you're saying i would HAVE to go to college to get a better understanding of the universe and other such great mysteries? where the fuck did the "teachers" learn it?

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I do not like how someone clearly so ignorant talks with such assumed authority. It's pathetic and arrogant of you to think you know anything about the way this world works to anywhere near the extent of people who have dedicated their life to studying it.
You're criticising me for telling someone the best way to learn a subject seriously is attending university to study it. You come across both as ignorant and anti-intellectual.
The teachers learnt it from their teachers, who in turn learnt it from theirs or somewhere else. This chain stretches back to create thousands of years of accumulated human knowledge and understanding. The human race has been around for a very long time and our combined knowledge and understanding has slowly slowly developed.
You may not realise it but the vast majority of ideas you have will have come from someone else, directly or indirectly. "Deep" ideas you come up with one day will no doubt have been planted by things youve seen or read or heard, almost undoubtedly.
Why is it that people 4000 years ago had a vastly inferior knowledge and understanding of the world? They could experience it directly just as well as we can. If we don't need to be taught or hear someone elses ideas on something to seriously consider it, then why has it that they didn't come up with advanced modern ideas then?
I won't claim and indeed did not claim that we can only learn from university studying. What I do claim however is that clearly we can only seriously learn with where we're up to as a race by taking into account the wisdom of others. IF you take a man and let him go through life never being taught anything and never coming into contact with people he will be an idiot. He will be stupid. No matter how many times you run his life, he will never come out at the end having thought up dada, quantum physics, or the moonlight sonata. That's because complex advanced ideas in humans are the result of generational development.
Nearly every single aspect of human intelligence we value is passed down between generations. Knowledge of the world, critical understanding, social understanding of other people, appreciation of complex forms of art and beauty. All these things we today assume are innate are the result of thousands of years of worldwide combined human experience and enquiry and learning.
Modern universities condense the accumulated knowledge and results of humanity into academic and rigorous courses to educate. Top world universities are the best and most successful ways of passing on knowledge and teaching in the world, and thus in order to really understand the complex ideas that humanity has produced on a certain subject it is useful to attend these.
You mention Einstein, but simply a quick google into his childhood reveals he was raised in a very scientific family, he was interested in and read the works of Kant at an early age, and he did go on to enrol in a scientific studying course. All of this is being clearly taught by other people, dead or alive.
It also comes across as massively ignorant and demeaning of you to say Einstein "guessed shit about space and got it right". Einstein studied scientific disciplines in various forms for many years, and very hard, as well as being an immensely gifted person, before making careful considerations and conclusions based on his knowledge, others ideas, his personal
observations and a critical understanding. This is not "guessing shit".
He did not, as you would probably like to think, for your own self esteem as much as anything I'd imagine, just muse one day some ideas about the universe with no real prior education on the subject, and just get it right.
Don't take my word for it though. Go and talk to an Ivy League or Oxbridge professor on philosophy about the nature of the mind, or similarly a professor of neuroscience, and then speak to some randomer of the same age who likes dreaming and thinks it's "really deep" on this forum about it, and see how much teaching can give to you.
You profoundly misunderstand the true complexity of ideas, and you seem to absolutely mock the combined knowledge of human history, which is incredibly problematic of you.
If someone chooses to pursue a subject, but would rather not attend university, they can entirely, I wouldn't call this impossible. However I would expect them to rigorously read and talk to more knowledgable people and to think critically. All these things are basically just what you do at university. Except in university you are guided in it by knowledgable people and it has a structure designed to maximise thought and learning.
One could spend their lifetime reading all the major works of philosophy for the past 2500 years and they would certainly learn a hell of a lot. But this is simply another form of teaching. It is a less structured, impersonal way of pursuing it, and likely far less effective or efficient than studying at university just for a few years. IF you can't see how absolutely inferior it would be, you're guilty of being blind, or wishful ignorance.
There are ideas from hundreds of years ago that have been the subject of hundreds of books in academic philosophy, and argued back and forth for many lifetimes, and you will get people coming on here on this very forum and making ham fisted and inarticulatly the same idea [which they will have indirectly been given by forms of entertainment and other indirect teaching] like it's something new. You know, something they just thought of whilst "experiencing the world".
It's arrogance on your part to assume that you or somebody else could just "come up with" ideas that have been refined and developed for generations of humanity.




Let me spell everything out very simply for you:

-The human race has a massive accumulated knowledge of the world passed on from generation to generation.

-Over time this becomes more profound and complex of it's own accord than any individual could ever come up with alone.

-Particular subjects have been particularly refined in knowledge between generations by teaching of them as subjects; maths, literature, philosophy, sciences.

-In order to gain specialised knowledge that has been passed through the generations on a subject of your interest, you must be taught it specially. For there is an extraordinary amount of information which you cannot "guess" on your own.

-In order to facilitate this teaching in society we have Schools and Universities.

-Universities are designed to be the best possible route to gaining knowledge on a subject, and for thousands of years have served that purpose successfully.

-Going to university will give you the most proficient and best amount of knowledge on a subject clearly available, based on the above points.

-Just looking at the world and casually reading stuff on the internet and the odd book, clearly, will not capture anywhere near the full breadth of information there is. As a result, you can be considered ignorant on the subject in comparison to those who have studied it especially at a place designed to carry knowledge.


I understand you may feel inadequate for your clear lack of education, but instead of digging in as you are and defending your position as equal, why not try and engage with the plethora of human knowledge and understanding we have, rather than thinking you're some superhuman who can gain just as much insight on your own.


Please don't respond to this if you're just going to vomit out more anti-intellectual idiocy, because it's painful and pitiful to read.

edit; although probably not as painful as the sheer WALL OF TEXT factor of this post.

See! that's why i love you Carou.
See i had this image that you thought the only way one could come to gain any knowledge is through courses at a school or a university. Where as i understand that is the optimum way to achieve equal understanding and intelligence as others well knowledgeable in the subject, i was (very poorly) getting at that there's another side of learning which is to take what you learn in the schools and universities and go into the world with it and study, and try to think away from the strict boxed confines of the school such as Darwin did, and Einstein and so many many others. Also, I would like to apologize for the very arrogant use of Einsteins' way of correlating hypotheses and theories in my previous post, i did butcher what i meant in saying that he "guessed shit and got it right". You gave a better and more thorough explanation of the reference. Well played Carou, and actually i didn't mind reading that wall of text at all. I hope i cleared up my point here, also i would like to say the previous post wasn't meant as an attack towards you but more a conversational catalyst

Quote:

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Originally Posted by MementoMori

See! that's why i love you Carou.
See i had this image that you thought the only way one could come to gain any knowledge is through courses at a school or a university. Where as i understand that is the optimum way to achieve equal understanding and intelligence as others well knowledgeable in the subject, i was (very poorly) getting at that there's another side of learning which is to take what you learn in the schools and universities and go into the world with it and study, and try to think away from the strict boxed confines of the school such as Darwin did, and Einstein and so man many others. Also, I would like to apologize for the very arrogant use of Einsteins' way of correlating hypotheses and theories in my previous post, i did butcher what i meant in saying that he "guessed shit and got it right". You gave a better and more thorough explanation of the reference. Well played Carou, and actually i didn't mind reading that wall of text at all. I hope i cleared up my point here, also i would like to say the previous post wasn't meant as an attack towards you but more a conversational catalyst

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You are a glorious human being.

As are you my friend.

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Originally Posted by Praise

I'll see if I can get some sources on the latest scientific discoveries. I think there's some things you might be interested in looking at.

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I read a book about somebody who investigated NDEs.

Lots of them involve OBEs. However when asked to describe some objective feature of the room the people were in, they always got it wrong. In other words, NDEs are just hallucinations; they're not real.

Most of the NDEs occurred during oxygen starvation of the brain which is known to cause hallucinations.

And you can't seriously be accusing us of having bias towards an afterlife not existing. Why on Earth would we not want to believe that after we die we go to a wonderful place forever? You're the one who's biased, that's ridiculously obvious.

If there is an afterlife it's probably supergood - or super more important. Like, you would never go back to living life in your mother's womb - right? That'd be dumb! Everyone agree's that you wouldn't want to go back and live with your old sperm pals, right?

P.S. Or it's a horrible hell thing that no one can escape! :shock:

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Originally Posted by tnemrot

I think you all missed the point of this thread. It was supposed to be a parody of Idolfan's threads.

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But 'hoppa didn't tangentially reveal any masturbatory fetishes in the OP, unless I misread the bit about the cornflakes.

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Originally Posted by Taosaur

But 'hoppa didn't tangentially reveal any masturbatory fetishes in the OP, unless I misread the bit about the cornflakes.

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Duly noted.

why do I feel all warm and fuzzy inside ;_;

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Originally Posted by nerve

why do I feel all warm and fuzzy inside ;_;

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derp?

derp. derp?

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Originally Posted by Carôusoul

I am Moloch, the great, besmeared with blood.

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I've finally decided that you are in fact a man Carôusoul, as women generally do not claim to be a blood smeared diety. Anyway, as far as this topic goes most of the main points have been brought up. I will leave it to greater minds than mine to post the remainder of them.

I feel I must voice an opinion though, I am +1 for the lump of atoms theory. Though I find it offensive to my pride to describe the Glory that is Man as such.

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Originally Posted by Lucid_boy

you are in fact a man Carôusoul

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And what a man.

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Originally Posted by Carôusoul

And what a man.

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good question

no, questions end in question marks, like this "?" you dolt

"God is an invention of Man. So the nature of God is only a shallow mystery. The deep mystery is the nature of Man." - Nanrei Kobori, late abbot of the Temple of the Shining Dragon, a Buddhist sanctuary in Kyoto

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Originally Posted by Darkmatters

"God is an invention of Man. So the nature of God is only a shallow mystery. The deep mystery is the nature of Man." - Nanrei Kobori, late abbot of the Temple of the Shining Dragon, a Buddhist sanctuary in Kyoto

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loving this quote.

Thanks Carou!

I'd also like to add that a stick is a very complex organism... well, a tree is I mean. And they do reproduce. So, we're really very similar, though we talk a lot more, and as far as I know trees don't post on the internet.

But a more fair comparison to a stick would be say the arm of a corpse, not a living human being. You see a lot of sticks laying around because trees don't bury their dead like we do. We usually have to rake them up and dispose of them ourselves.

This is a fun convo!

I'm sorry, but I fail t see how a tree is comparable to a human. Yes, they reproduce in some manner, and are fairly complex, but compared to a human? Well...they aren't very complex.

Ah, but it turns out a stick is actually quite a bit more complex than you first assumed though, isn't it? When you made this statement:

"By your logic, no one has anymore significance than a stick."

It seems when you said that you were thinking of a stick as a completely inanimate object, like a rock. But a little thinking shows that you missed the mark significantly. It's actually part of a living organism. And in a sense, a human being really has no more significance than a stick (or a rock for that matter). It's just 'there"... and we're just "here"... we need to make our own meaning in life or there is none. In fact that's exactly why religions were invented... to create a sense of meaning in life.

... And just to be clear, I was more aiming that statement at Mario than you... because he said something along the lines that a stick is a very simple thing. I'm not saying he was wrong or I disagree with him, just pointing out something he might not have realized.

Another fun fact of the day: some plants, especially trees, and especially trees with sticks attached to them, have seemingly random chemical fluctuations...plant emotions, perhaps? :-?

Interesting... somebody should ask one next time they're talking to a plant. Cause remember, apparently they respond to emotions in your voice. Not so sure about that one though (but you do see a lot of people hugging trees... :lol:)

Oh good, this is the thread with the talk about existentialism... I was thinking about this one today.

As well as I remember it, this is the difference between the core beliefs of Existentialism and Nihilism:

• EXISTENTIALISM
  
  Begins with the idea that life has no inherent meaning or point, so therefore it's up to us to create meaning in our own lives.
  
  
  
  
  
• NIHILISM
  
  Begins with the same assumption, that life has no inherent meaning or point, but takes a much more depressive conclusion from that and says basically what the OP of this thread was saying... "So what's the point in living then?"

But it's been a long time since I read that, and I believe I got it originally from the internet.... So I could be wrong (and it's pretty intimidating trying to post anything of a philosophical nature in these boards with people like Carousoul and Mario in here!)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Darkmatters

Interesting... somebody should ask one next time they're talking to a plant. Cause remember, apparently they respond to emotions in your voice. Not so sure about that one though (but you do see a lot of people hugging trees... :lol:)

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I always talk to my plants...well, the important ones, anyway. :D At the very least, you exhale CO2 all over them, which is a good thing, I imagine. So yeah, I can see that stimulating plant growth. And if they can pick up on your affection, all the better!

Quote:

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But it's been a long time since I read that, and I believe I got it originally from the internet.... So I could be wrong (and it's pretty intimidating trying to post anything of a philosophical nature in these boards with people like Carousoul and Mario in here!)

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Hahah, I don't usually rip apart philosophies like I rip apart religions. One is there to stimulate thinking and bring up new ideas, the other essentially claims that a philosophy is absolute truth. I have no problem with people posting things of a speculative nature, or for the sake of argument, or just to provoke thought...it is when these people believe these things to be absolutely true with no wiggle room that I start taking issue...so yeah, you're safe from my wrath...for now. :mwahaha:

Well, actually I was more worried that I might have got it wrong and then get schooled by one of you. Which really would not be a bad thing as I'd learn from it. It's awesome to be able to openly discuss this kind of stuff with such intelligent and knowledgeable people. It gives me a chance to try out what I think I know and see where the flaws are. And THAT is how you learn.

I Love the fact that these boards are called FORUMS... just like the ancient Greek forum. Its almost like we're all strolling around in tunics stroking our long white beards while lute music drifts lazily from under a nearby tree, and there go Aristotle and Plato over there....

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Originally Posted by Mario92

I always talk to my plants...well, the important ones, anyway. :D At the very least, you exhale CO2 all over them, which is a good thing, I imagine.

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Hmmm yeah, and then they give you something to breathe in exchange.... nice arrangement. :D

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Darkmatters

Well, actually I was more worried that I might have got it wrong and then get schooled by one of you. Which really would not be a bad thing as I'd learn from it. It's awesome to be able to openly discuss this kind of stuff with such intelligent and knowledgeable people. It gives me a chance to try out what I think I know and see where the flaws are. And THAT is how you learn.

I Love the fact that these boards are called FORUMS... just like the ancient Greek forum. Its almost like we're all strolling around in tunics stroking our long white beards while lute music drifts lazily from under a nearby tree, and there go Aristotle and Plato over there....

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*puts on lute music and starts growing out a beard. Reaches for bed sheets.* That actually sounds awesome. Remind me to do that in a lucid...and remind me to try to share a dream with you. I think we could philosophize rather nicely. :D

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Originally Posted by Darkmatters

Hmmm yeah, and then they give you something to breathe in exchange.... nice arrangement. :D

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I rather think so. :content:

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Originally Posted by Mario92

*puts on lute music and starts growing out a beard. Reaches for bed sheets.* That actually sounds awesome. Remind me to do that in a lucid...and remind me to try to share a dream with you. I think we could philosophize rather nicely. :D

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Hey, you're on.... IF I EVER MANAGE TO GO LUCID!!!! :roll:

Haha, look for the dude on the left:
http://terpconnect.umd.edu/~wkallfel...0aristotle.jpg
...and yeah, I've got a long way to go in my lucid endeavors, too. :P

LOL ok, then I guess look for the guy on the right. What the hell, a short brown beard is better than none!! It'll be interesting to see what those big books are we're carrying... :content:

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Originally Posted by Marvo

The real answer is that there's absolutely no point in life really. There's no greater meaning, purpose, understanding or any other thing. Ultimately you're just a cluster of atoms that happen to work in a certain way.

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If you go outside at night and lay on the grass and stare at the sky, Its pretty easy to tell that theres something else going on. Some people are just to numb to feel it. Modern life makes us that way.
:sleepmeditate2:

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Originally Posted by IndigoGhost

If you go outside at night and lay on the grass and stare at the sky, Its pretty easy to tell that theres something else going on. Some people are just top numb to feel it. Modern life makes us that way.
:sleepmeditate2:

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I do this almost every night. Most relaxing thing in the world.

-

But for the people who just think we are a bunch of atoms with no purpose.. that is just weird to me. Yes we are atoms, but what is the point in ANYTHING in existence if nothing matters at all? Really, stop and think about it. Just think about it reaaaal hard. If you still fully believe that, you should just kill yourself now. Not trying to be mean, but hell, it doesn't matter now does it? You're just a bunch of atoms, no one cares about you and you will be forgotten in a couple years... and COMPLETELY forgotten in 100 years or less.

I get and completely understand where the "theory" comes from, I just don't get it though. I honestly don't even give a shit if it actually is true. I'd rather go through life thinking it is meaningful than going through life thinking everything you do will even be forgotten by yourself one day, and that everything in existence is just a cycle of randomness created by randomness.


I love topics like this though, I really do thank the people that think other wise. It helps me ponder and expand my thinking.. :)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by IndigoGhost

If you go outside at night and lay on the grass and stare at the sky, Its pretty easy to tell that theres something else going on. Some people are just to numb to feel it. Modern life makes us that way.
:sleepmeditate2:

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Yeah, or you know, it could just be that all those little dots in the sky are big balls of nuclear fusion reactions caused by hydrogen atoms in the plasma state colliding together to form helium, carbon, and other elements taking place hundreds of thousands, even millions and billions of light years away. Is that so hard to accept? Why does there have to be something else out there?

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Isn’t this enough?
Just this world?
Just this beautiful, complex
Wonderfully unfathomable world?
How does it so fail to hold our attention
That we have to diminish it with the invention
Of cheap, man-made Myths and Monsters?
If you’re so into Shakespeare
Lend me your ear:
“To gild refined gold, to paint the lily,
To throw perfume on the violet… is just fucking silly”
Or something like that.
Or what about Satchmo?!
I see trees of Green,
Red roses too,
And fine, if you wish to
Glorify Krishna and Vishnu
In a post-colonial, condescending
Bottled-up and labeled kind of way
That’s ok.
But here’s what gives me a hard-on:
I am a tiny, insignificant, ignorant lump of carbon.
I have one life, and it is short
And unimportant…
But thanks to recent scientific advances
I get to live twice as long as my great great great great uncles and auntses.
Twice as long to live this life of mine
Twice as long to love this wife of mine
Twice as many years of friends and wine
Of sharing curries and getting shitty
With good-looking hippies
With fairies on their spines
And butterflies on their titties.

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In all actuality, there is an incredibly overwhelming possibility that we really are no more than organized clumps of atoms. That said, we still have the capacity (or at least delusion) that we can think, have free will, and enjoy ourselves, which is why we don't cut ourselves short. You don't need a purpose or a reason to enjoy life.

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Originally Posted by Mario92

Why does there have to be something else out there?

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My opinion is that it is a type of anthropomorphism (for the lack of a better word), where people detect the influence or prescence of humans or another intellegent entity in otherwise natural phenomenon.

I know anthropomorphism isn't the correct word for this, but it comes the closest to describing the human tendency to detect the influence of supernatural beings in natural phenomenon among the words that I know.

Hey Mario, big thanks just for the quote!!! What's that from/ who wrote it?
Also, I think a big part of the problem on this thread is... just exactly what is meant by the word PUROPSE?

How can a person have a purpose?

An oil filter has a purpose... to filter oil. That's its purpose because that's what it was designed and made to do. Does a flower have a purpose? You could say it's purpose is to reproduce... heck, if that's a purpose, then I guess all animals share that one. But that's only a 'PURPOSE' in the biological sense. Is a flower's purpose maybe to look pretty or smell pretty? No, it indeed DOES those things, but they're not its PURPOSE... it evolved those traits.

A purpose means something you were MADE to do... and so the very use of the term implies intelligent design.

I say we have no purpose... we have something far far better. We have freedom to explore and think and love and dream.

Far better to be a free agent in a meaningless world than the slave of a mad god.

... To those who believe we do have a purpose... what exactly is that purpose?

Here is what the quote is originally from:

I have had similar thoughts several times. Sometimes I think that, since I can't really know what will happen after death, why bother about it? Ultimately does it matter whether I disintegrate into nothingness or whether something of me remains to continue living. Then I wonder what is the point of living if one day I will become nothing. Makes no sense to me. I think the best option is to focus on the now and not bother about all these things.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by grasshoppa

and my first reaction was to post it on dreamviews!!!!!!

so while i was eating breakfest, specifically corn flakes, i had this thought...hence the title LOL. I was thinking like, we don't really know if anything actually happens after death, so like, whats the point then? It's probably the deepest thought I've had in like my whole life so I had to see what u guys thought. ANyway for a discussion point: Whats the point of life if there is nothing after it??? I might as well end it now because its going to end anyway, right??

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first of all, corn flakes was a great choice.

...i know i'm a little late replying to this, but i'd like to throw in my two cents (even though i'm broke, ha)... i think we all make our own meaning in life. enjoy life for what it is -- whatever it is. maybe it's just a vacation from nothingness. maybe there's a life after this that we can look forward to or dread, depending on what exactly that afterlife is. we don't know either way whether or not there's nothing or if there's something after this, but i like to believe there is.

if you're only waiting to die, you're not really living.

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Originally Posted by quicksilver girl.

[SIZE="1"]if you're only waiting to die, you're not really living.

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Exactly! :)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Noogah

You really believe that?

You really believe you're just a lump of atoms? A chemical reaction? Everything you love and support, all that you've enjoyed, all that you've done, is nothing but the byproduct of a natural phenomena?

I don't.

In addition, I know that I AM more then just another physical trinket on the face of a physical planet. By your logic, no one has anymore significance than a stick.

No offense, but I find that to be completely ludicrous.

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You could've at least posted that quote in the original Latin. Cognito ergo sum.

This is the basis forthe idea that the average person's life goals of amassing belongings is pointless, that the only real value to one's life is to simply enjoy it as much as you can.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Mario92

Here is what the quote is originally from:

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Thanks for posting that, I love Michlin.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Jesus of Suburbia

Michlin

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no, fuck you

also SB in R/S

Quote:

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Originally Posted by no-Name

no, fuck you

also SB in R/S

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Oh, wrong name. Sorry.

And what??