It's interesting to note the ways that people identify God and Satan. To most, it's quite simply, Satan=Bad, God=Good.
To an extent, this is so. No evil has entered the world by God's hand. It was all spawned by Satan, although it was the choice of mankind to allow him into the world, so we are definitely responsible. However, Satan is the god of the world, and all sin is spawned from him, his angels (or demons) and the fleshly desires of mankind.
But besides all this, people's view of Satan is extremely limited. They seem to believe he is just an evil being who mindlessly attempts to destroy all things, and to make all things bad without a reason.
In fact, this is not so. Humankind is not what Satan wishes to destroy. In fact, he wants world peace. He wants cooperation with nations, and rest among people. He is not opposed to morals, or humanism. Not at all. In fact, he fully supports these things.
Satan does not wish to destroy humankind. He wishes to destroy God. He want's rise above God; to be the ultimate authority and control over man, and over the universe.
Spoiler for Isaiah 14:12-15 (King James Version):
12How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!
13For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:
14I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.
15Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.
We can observe in the world around us. Yes, it is disgusting and vile, but is that the ultimate aim of the populous? No!
I do not support Barrack Obama. I feel that his methods of balancing and running our country, making peace with enemies are irresponsible at best. However, is his intent malicious? To my knowledge, no. In fact, his intentions are quite honorable. Change! and Peace! Anything wicked, vile, and disgusting about that? Nope. But take notice of his spiritual side. He tried to remove the manger scene from the White House. A tradition, that to my knowledge, has been kept for a very long time. He changed (or tried to change) the saying from Merry Christmas, to Happy Holidays. The church he formerly attended before taking office was...well...you get the point. His actions suggest a weak faith, if any faith at all.
But the WORLD supported him completely. Keep in mind, Satan is the god of the world.
I could go on and on about politics, but to the point, Satan wants morals without God. He would like peace in the world, and would like to make the world a better place. He just wants to leave God out of it.
There is a problem. There simply cannot be peace, without the prince of peace, which is Jesus Christ.
Satan, however, prays on the Christian, because Christians are the people God, Christian's are also his enemy. He attempts make their lives unappealing. To tempt them, and lead them as far astray from the true God as he can. To make his ways seem so much easier then the RIGHT way.
So, is the fall of Satan unreasonable? Was it wrong to cast Satan from heaven? Afterall, by now, you may be thinking, he doesn't seem so bad. But you would be gravely mistaken.
Spoiler for Ezekiel 28:13-15 (King James Version):
13Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.
14Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.
15Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.
Satan was HIGHLY favored in Heaven. Perfect in all ways, apparently. It is reasonable to assume he also had high status, and possibly power over all the other angels.
But that wasn't enough for Satan. After being set so high, being given so much, and being made so well, it was not enough for him. Satan wanted to BE God, and plotted thusly. Against the very one who had so generously made him who he was. And so, he was thrown from Heaven, where he tried to take man from God.
Satan is just as evil and disgusting as he ever was. His methods are wrong, and nothing can be right without the perfect ways of God.
Spoiler for In a nutshell:
Humanity is not Satan's enemy, God is, and in turn so are Christians.Satan wants to rule over God.
Discuss.
01-08-2010, 08:38 AM
Maria92
Good to have you back, mate. :)
Onto your post, then...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Noogah
Hello R/S! Nice to be back!:)
Welcome Back.
It's interesting to note the ways that people identify God and Satan. To most, it's quite simply, Satan=Bad, God=Good.
To an extent, this is so. No evil has entered the world by God's hand. It was all spawned by Satan, although it was the choice of mankind to allow him into the world, so we are definitely responsible. However, Satan is the god of the world, and all sin is spawned from him, his angels (or demons) and the fleshly desires of mankind.
Not so sure I agree with this...
But besides all this, people's view of Satan is extremely limited. They seem to believe he is just an evil being who mindlessly attempts to destroy all things, and to make all things bad without a reason.
I'd say that's a fair assessment.
In fact, this is not so. Humankind is not what Satan wishes to destroy. In fact, he wants world peace. He wants cooperation with nations, and rest among people. He is not opposed to morals, or humanism. Not at all. In fact, he fully supports these things.
Satan does not wish to destroy humankind. He wishes to destroy God. He want's rise above God; to be the ultimate authority and control over man, and over the universe.
He doesn't sound like such a bad guy, really.
Spoiler for Isaiah 14:12-15 (King James Version):
12How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!
13For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:
14I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.
15Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.
We can observe in the world around us. Yes, it is disgusting and vile, but is that the ultimate aim of the populous? No!
I do not support Barrack Obama. I feel that his methods of balancing and running our country, making peace with enemies are irresponsible at best. However, is his intent malicious? To my knowledge, no. In fact, his intentions are quite honorable. Change! and Peace! Anything wicked, vile, and disgusting about that? Nope. But take notice of his spiritual side. He tried to remove the manger scene from the White House. A tradition, that to my knowledge, has been kept for a very long time. He changed (or tried to change) the saying from Merry Christmas, to Happy Holidays. The church he formerly attended before taking office was...well...you get the point. His actions suggest a weak faith, if any faith at all.
But the WORLD supported him completely. Keep in mind, Satan is the god of the world.
I support Obama and his relative lack of faith. I'd say that it's about time we had a nonreligious president.
I could go on and on about politics, but to the point, Satan wants morals without God. He would like peace in the world, and would like to make the world a better place. He just wants to leave God out of it.
...and studies have shown time and time again that religion is not a prerequisite to morality.
There is a problem. There simply cannot be peace, without the prince of peace, which is Jesus Christ.
I disagree with this.
Satan, however, prays on the Christian, because Christians are the people God, Christian's are also his enemy. He attempts make their lives unappealing. To tempt them, and lead them as far astray from the true God as he can. To make his ways seem so much easier then the RIGHT way.
Interesting...guess it's a good thing I'm an atheist, then...
So, is the fall of Satan unreasonable? Was it wrong to cast Satan from heaven? Afterall, by now, you may be thinking, he doesn't seem so bad. But you would be gravely mistaken.
You said it...he sounds like a pretty cool guy. When can we get around to usurping God?
Spoiler for Ezekiel 28:13-15 (King James Version):
13Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.
14Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.
15Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.
Satan was HIGHLY favored in Heaven. Perfect in all ways, apparently. It is reasonable to assume he also had high status, and possibly power over all the other angels.
But that wasn't enough for Satan. After being set so high, being given so much, and being made so well, it was not enough for him. Satan wanted to BE God, and plotted thusly. Against the very one who had so generously made him who he was. And so, he was thrown from Heaven, where he tried to take man from God.
Who wouldn't want to take over the grand throne?
Satan is just as evil and disgusting as he ever was. His methods are wrong, and nothing can be right without the perfect ways of God.
But he sounds like such a cool guy...
Spoiler for In a nutshell:
Humanity is not Satan's enemy, God is, and in turn so are Christians.Satan wants to rule over God.
Once more, it's a good thing I'm atheist.
Discuss.
I beg to differ...first off, I would like to open with the argument that the Bible could very well be little more than a book of fairy tales (no offense intended to anyone), and as of yet, I'm seeing a shocking lack of evidence that dismisses this notion at all. Indeed, the onus of proof is on the one making the positive claim, and as of yet, no convincing evidence has been brought to light that God or Satan must exist...in fact, it's beginning to seem like quite the opposite is true. While science can not yet explain everything about the universe, we continue to unravel its mysteries, marching ever closer to total or near-total understanding. Will we solve everything within this generation, or century, even the millennium? Probably not. It will take time. However, I do not see any reason why we should place God as the cause of all that we do not understand until we figure it out.
My two cents.
01-08-2010, 08:46 AM
Invader
Quote:
Originally Posted by Noogah
Satan does not wish to destroy humankind. He wishes to destroy God.
Very much disagree. I think the whole point of Satan was to create this
opposition in viewpoints on the correct way of running things, and against
this highest authority figure. So, when this God creates man, and the most
favored (and rebellious) one steps in and disagrees with the way God is doing
things, he is cast away. The ultimate goal in the long run is for Satan to
prove that his ways will be valued higher than the ways of God as brought to
the people by whatever prophets.
In a nutshell:
"Humankind can manage themselves."
Quote:
Originally Posted by Noogah
He changed (or tried to change) the saying from Merry Christmas, to Happy Holidays. The church he formerly attended before taking office was...well...you get the point. His actions suggest a weak faith, if any faith at all.
This is sidetracking a bit, but it suggests an openness to all faiths by saying
'happy holidays' as opposed to restricting the greeting to one religion.
Wanting to acknowledging multiple religious holidays hardly suggests lack of faith.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Noogah
But the WORLD supported him completely. Keep in mind, Satan is the god of the world.
What do you mean by that? Christians were originally supposed to believe in
one God only before they began to worship Jesus instead, but to say that
Satan is a god as well is polytheistic.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Noogah
but to the point, Satan wants morals without God. He would like peace in the world, and would like to make the world a better place. He just wants to leave God out of it.
Right.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Noogah
There is a problem. There simply cannot be peace, without the prince of peace, which is Jesus Christ.
The whole point of this is that this figure, Satan, believes he can prove otherwise.
01-08-2010, 09:04 AM
Noogah
Quote:
Originally Posted by Invader
Very much disagree. I think the whole point of Satan was to create this
opposition in viewpoints on the correct way of running things, and against
this highest authority figure. So, when this God creates man, and the most
favored (and rebellious) one steps in and disagrees with the way God is doing
things, he is cast away.
It sounds nice, but if we're following the Biblical story, then that is not how it happened.
I don't usually copy and paste, but there is so much written on the topic, I see no reason to write a whole new one.
Quote:
Why did Satan fall from heaven? Satan fell because of pride. He desired to be God, not to be a servant of God. Notice the many “I will...” statements in Isaiah 14:12-15. Ezekiel 28:12-15 describes Satan as an exceedingly beautiful angel. Satan was likely the highest of all angels, the most beautiful of all of God's creations, but he was not content in his position. Instead, Satan desired to be God, to essentially “kick God off His throne” and take over the rule of the universe. Satan wanted to be God, and interestingly enough, that is what Satan tempted Adam and Eve with in the Garden of Eden (Genesis 3:1-5). How did Satan fall from heaven? Actually, a fall is not an accurate description. It would be far more accurate to say God cast Satan out of heaven (Isaiah 14:15; Ezekiel 28:16-17). Satan did not fall from heaven; rather, Satan was pushed out of heaven.
Christians were originally supposed to believe in
one God only before they began to worship Jesus instead, but to say that
Satan is a god as well is polytheistic.
In this context, I mean that he is the leader of the world that rejected God. He is not a god, nor is he the god of Christians.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Invader
The whole point of this is that this figure, Satan, believes he can prove otherwise.
It's been seven thousand years. He hasn't shown his ability to produce much peace yet, has he?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mario92
But he sounds like such a cool guy...
Again, I don't usually copy paste, buuuutttt.....
Quote:
Characteristics of Satan
1. Created by God, and not equal to God (Prov 16:4)
2. Defies God and despises truth (John 8:44)
3. Was given limited power (Job 1:8-12)
4. Was defeated at Calvary (Eph. 1:20-23)
5. Rules the masses outside God’s protection (Eph. 2:1-3)
6. Commands a hierarchy of demons (Eph. 6:10-12)
7. Came to steal, kill and destroy (John 10:10)
8. Masquerades as "an angel of light." (2 Cor. 11:14-15)
9. Tries to hide the actual truth about our God.
10. Twists the meaning of Scriptures to fit his purposes. (Gen. 3:1-5)
11. Offers counterfeit promises he can't fulfill
12. Always seeks an "opportune time" to tempt us (Luke 4:13)
It sounds nice, but if we're following the Biblical story, then that is not how it happened.
But that was how it occurred in the story, isn't it? Satan is told to
prostrate himself before the human being, and declining to do so was the
kicker. Satan's pride says nothing about him wanting to dominate the
heavens. After this "fall" of his, he decides to prove to God that man was
never really worthy of him by seducing man away from "God's ways". In this
way Satan is able to justify himself in that he should not have bowed to a
lesser creature.
Quote:
Satan wanted to be God, and interestingly enough, that is what Satan tempted Adam and Eve with in the Garden of Eden
Non sequitur. His actions have no logical connection to wanting to be God.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Noogah
It's been seven thousand years. He hasn't shown his ability to produce much peace yet, has he?
The recent advent of communication and means of distributing education to
the masses is making the newer generations more tolerant of others. Prior to
that, people were very much disconnected from each other across the globe,
and a unified "one world" kingdom could not be achieved. That's assuming
that peace would be the goal at all.
Quote:
7. Came to steal, kill and destroy (John 10:10)
That is a direct contradiction to the claim that he wishes to make peace for us.
Quote:
10. Twists the meaning of Scriptures to fit his purposes. (Gen. 3:1-5)
This is also a very interesting one, considering the Bible's revisions throughout history.
01-08-2010, 10:41 AM
Noogah
Quote:
Originally Posted by Invader
But that was how it occurred in the story, isn't it?
......no.....did you read the verses? Or do you have another reference? :?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Invader
Non sequitur. His actions have no logical connection to wanting to be God.
By encouraging the fall of mankind, he made mankind vulnerable to his rule, giving him power over mankind. This does indeed contribute to his power.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Invader
The recent advent of communication and means of distributing education to
the masses is making the newer generations more tolerant of others. Prior to
that, people were very much disconnected from each other across the globe,
and a unified "one world" kingdom could not be achieved.
He has done nothing. Advancement in communication has only allowed us to watch brutal battles from our homes. It has allowed private and convenient communication channels for terrorists. It has allowed people to secretly plot crime over long distances.
With the advantages towards peace have also come greater chaos, and disadvantages.
What you consider perfection is not perfection by God. God's perfect world has nothing bad. Impossible to comprehend.
Not one evil thought.
No temptation.
No worries.
Not disaster.
No hate.
No chaos.
There is simply no physical means by which this could be accomplished. It is utterly impossible.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Invader
That is a direct contradiction to the claim that he wishes to make peace for us.
No, I said he wants peace for humanity, and destruction for Christians. And either way, he has accomplished destruction no matter his goals.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Invader
This is also a very interesting one, considering the Bible's revisions throughout history.
You mean the translations from one language into another? Hardly a "revision". There is a fine line between twiating and translating. The King James Bible has been praised on numerous occasions for it's fine and seemless translation from the original texts into English.
01-08-2010, 11:30 AM
Invader
Quote:
Originally Posted by Noogah
......no.....did you read the verses? Or do you have another reference? :?
Eh, both. First off,
"For thou hast said in thine heart"
You can probably tell me who is writing that passage of the bible. If Satan
does not actually claim this, literally, out loud for another to hear, how is it
known to anyone at all?
The deal about Satan having to bow before Adam is actually out of the Koran.
No longer relevant here then.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Noogah
By encouraging the fall of mankind, he made mankind vulnerable to his rule, giving him power over mankind. This does indeed contribute to his power.
Still, it doesn't follow that such an action gives away his desire to be God.
The will to destroy or damage doesn't always accompany the wish to rule
over that which you are destroying/damaging, much less rule on high over
your current boss, so to speak.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Noogah
He has done nothing. Advancement in communication has only allowed us to watch brutal battles from our homes. It has allowed private and convenient communication channels for terrorists. It has allowed people to secretly plot crime over long distances.
Sure. But you can see the difference shared by the educated and
uneducated masses. That one is generally more tolerant to difference than
the other. That one is more prone to peace than the other. The human
lifespan is increasing, too.
The capacity for war and general violence, however, is not isolated to human
beings. Our increased communications is only allowing us to play out what
we've been doing for ages. Relative peace, however, should be rising with
education.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Noogah
What you consider perfection is not perfection by God.
What do I consider perfect?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Noogah
Not one evil thought.
No temptation.
No worries.
Not disaster.
No hate.
No chaos.
There is simply no physical means by which this could be accomplished. It is utterly impossible.
Ending all life would fulfill that list.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Noogah
No, I said he wants peace for humanity, and destruction for Christians. And either way, he has accomplished destruction no matter his goals.
But the quote out of the bible doesn't specify that it's for Christians only.
Unless it does, in which case you can honor me with the appropriate links. :teeth:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Noogah
You mean the translations from one language into another?
The following quote is from wikipedia, but it should make my concerns clear:
Quote:
The Authorized King James Version of 1611 was sporadically altered until 1769, but was not thoroughly updated until the creation of the Revised Version in 1885. These formal equivalence or literal translations have been continued with further modifications to the King James and Revised Versions, including the Revised Standard Version (1952), the New Revised Standard Version (1989), and the English Standard Version (2001).
Quote:
Originally Posted by http://www.carm.org/christianity/bible/do-lost-books-bible-prove-bible-has-been-altered
Nevertheless, in spite of these problems the Roman Catholic church has added certain books to the canon of scripture. In 1546, largely due in response to the Reformation, the Roman Catholic church authorized several more books as scripture known as the apocrypha.
Look, the point about the bible having been altered is something I want to
address, but it goes off the topic of this particular thread. Additionally, there
are other members here that I would trust more with the matter of bible
alteration than I could hope to speak of myself.
01-08-2010, 04:02 PM
YULAW
I'm going to have to go with Invader on this one Noogah and it has nothing to do with cute little blue stars by his name. I just think there is a valid point he's making which is overlooked by you. If you look at how this all stems down it's very apparent what Satan's motives are in the book of Job. He wants Man to think that he can govern himself and that God's ways are no good, plain and simple.
01-08-2010, 07:04 PM
Noogah
Quote:
Originally Posted by ShadowNightWing
He wants Man to think that he can govern himself and that God's ways are no good, plain and simple.
But why?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Invader
The deal about Satan having to bow before Adam is actually out of the Koran.
Invader, I don't want to sound like a nitwit, but I haven't the slightest what you're going on about. Either we're talking about two different things, or I'm just not following.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Invader
That one is more prone to peace than the other.
MORE peace does not equal absolute peace, which will never be accomplished by him.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Invader
What do I consider perfect?
Sorry, I didn't mean you specifically, I mean mankind as a whole. Would you consider it peaceful if all countries co-existed without war, and without debt? Yes, you would. Or at least, I should think you would.
But spiritual peace could never be achieved that way. Sin would still exist, and so would bitterness, anger, hate, etc.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Invader
But the quote out of the bible doesn't specify that it's for Christians only.
Not that specific verse, of course. The information we have is collectively gathered from bits on him scattered throughout the Bible. But, if God is his absolute adversary, then so are Christians, and not mankind. Seems a fair theory to me, anyways.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Invader
The following quote is from wikipedia, but it should make my concerns clear
Come now! You know better then that, don't you???
I could argue, but like you said, the Bible is off topic right now, and I'd prefer not to get into it in this thread.
Now, I could be wrong, of course. There is no reference in the Bible that explicitly states what I've said. For the most part, Satan is just an evil deity in the Bible. One which we are to avoid. I only thought discussing his nature would be interesting.
01-08-2010, 08:00 PM
grasshoppa
What is the point in discussing the nature non-existant figures?
01-08-2010, 08:18 PM
Carôusoul
Quote:
Originally Posted by grasshoppa
What is the point in discussing the nature non-existant figures?
That's like saying what's the point in literary analysis, just because the characters aren't real.
01-08-2010, 08:33 PM
Invader
Quote:
Originally Posted by Noogah
Invader, I don't want to sound like a nitwit, but I haven't the slightest what you're going on about. Either we're talking about two different things, or I'm just not following.
Earlier I said something about Satan that you claimed was not out of the
bible (the bit about Satan prostrating, otherwise known as bowing, before
Adam). You were correct. That piece of the story came out of the Muslim's
holy book, the Koran, and I honestly thought it was in the bible as well. Alas,
I'm not terribly familiar with either of these texts, but enough so that I can
participate in the discussion.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Noogah
MORE peace does not equal absolute peace, which will never be accomplished by him.
"More peace" may be enough to unite humanity under one flag in a way that
will allow them to manage themselves effectively.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Noogah
Sorry, I didn't mean you specifically, I mean mankind as a whole. Would you consider it peaceful if all countries co-existed without war, and without debt? Yes, you would. Or at least, I should think you would.
But spiritual peace could never be achieved that way. Sin would still exist, and so would bitterness, anger, hate, etc.
Ah ah ah, the word was "perfect", not "peaceful". I'm not denying what I
think would be peaceful, but prior to this you claimed to know what I (or
rather humanity) thought was perfect.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Noogah
Not that specific verse, of course. The information we have is collectively gathered from bits on him scattered throughout the Bible. But, if God is his absolute adversary, then so are Christians, and not mankind. Seems a fair theory to me, anyways.
Though humanity would still be the creation of his adversary in this case,
and with expectations of God to rise to the challenge and follow the divine
word. That's why temptation, as a religious concept, applies to all people.
It's a means of pulling them away from the God-being.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Noogah
Come now! You know better then that, don't you???
That quote was nevertheless accurate. :chuckle:
Right, right, off topic.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Noogah
I only thought discussing his nature would be interesting.
If it gives you another perspective, it should be interesting, yes. :)
Quote:
Originally Posted by grasshoppa
What is the point in discussing the nature non-existant figures?
Whether or not these things exist is besides the point. It's being discussed
for what it represents: Authority, rebellion, humanity's capacity for peace (or
lack thereof) and whether or not humanity would be better off being
managed by this higher power, vs being managed by ourselves (possibly with
the aid of this rebellious character). Because of what Satan represents, he
exists as a philosophical concept as well as a theological one.
If you decide to post in this thread, make it a worthwhile post that actually contributes to the topic. Consider this fair warning.
01-08-2010, 10:09 PM
Noogah
Quote:
Originally Posted by Invader
You were correct. That piece of the story came out of the Muslim's
holy book, the Koran, and I honestly thought it was in the bible as well.
Oh, oh, oh. Sorry, I forgot that.
Judging by the points you have brought up, I believe I need to redefine what I mean when I say "peace". I really mean peace, AND perfection, which can only be accomplished by The Prince of Peace, which is Jesus Christ.
Perhaps Satan could bring a considerable ammount of peace, but the world would remain imperfect spiritually, and physically as well, even if countries did cooperate. That notion makes world peace more or less uneffective. Sure, there might not be any war, but there would still be crime, violence, and even bitter/negative emotions like hate and sorrow. There would be a lack of spiritual fulfillment, which is what every human yearns for deep down. That can only be brought about by Jesus Christ.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Invader
That's why temptation, as a religious concept, applies to all people.
It's a means of pulling them away from the God-being.
Well, of course. Chrisians and the world are both pulled from God, but Christians are naturally dealt with in a different way from nonbelievers.
I am confused. What exactly are we discussing here? :D
01-08-2010, 10:16 PM
Carôusoul
Quote:
Originally Posted by Noogah
Oh, oh, oh. Sorry, I forgot that.
Judging by the points you have brought up, I believe I need to redefine what I mean when I say "peace". I really mean peace, AND perfection, which can only be accomplished by The Prince of Peace, which is Jesus Christ.
I hope you understand that you aren't redefining what you mean by peace by saying "I really mean peace". I don't think you even know what you mean by peace.
And what is perfection? Can you tell me that? Do you have any idea?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Noogah
Perhaps Satan could bring a considerable ammount of peace, but the world would remain imperfect spiritually, and physically as well, even if countries did cooperate. That notion makes world peace more or less uneffective. Sure, there might not be any war, but there would still be crime, violence, and even bitter/negative emotions like hate and sorrow. There would be a lack of spiritual fulfillment, which is what every human yearns for deep down. That can only be brought about by Jesus Christ.
As well as shady usage of the word perfect here, what do you mean by spiritually? What is spiritual?
01-08-2010, 10:20 PM
Noogah
Quote:
And what is perfection? Can you tell me that? Do you have any idea?
*sighs*
You would do well to read the material you are debating. :?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Noogah
Not one evil thought.
No temptation.
No worries.
Not disaster.
No hate.
No chaos.
There is simply no physical means by which this could be accomplished. It is utterly impossible.
Sinless perfection is a basic Christian concept.
Quote:
what do you mean by spiritually? What is spiritual?
The spirit. The unclean sin stained spirit we have can only be cleansed and made whole through Jesus Christ.
That is the whole point of Christianity.
01-08-2010, 10:23 PM
Carôusoul
Quote:
Originally Posted by Noogah
The spirit. The unclean sin stained spirit we have can only be cleansed and made whole through Jesus Christ.
So what exactly is the spirit? you've just told me it is the spirit. You haven't at all elaborated what that actually is.
What makes an evil thought? Who decides what is evil? What gives them that authority?
01-08-2010, 10:27 PM
Bonsay
Quote:
Originally Posted by Noogah
The spirit. The unclean sin stained spirit we have can only be cleansed and made whole through Jesus Christ.
That is the whole point of Christianity.
Well the solution was given by Buddhists 500 years before Christ. So I guess we don't need him to be cleansed.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carôusoul
So what exactly is the spirit? you've just told me it is the spirit. You haven't at all elaborated what that actually is.
What makes an evil thought? Who decides what is evil? What gives them that authority?
The spirit is yourself as you experience "it".
Evil is whatever God says is evil.
God decides it, and his omnipotence gives him the power to do so and with this power comes authority.
01-08-2010, 10:29 PM
Noogah
Quote:
So what exactly is the spirit?
Google Holy Spirit. You seem to have no knowledge of the Bible. It's a topic too broad for the scope of this thread.
Quote:
What makes an evil thought? Who decides what is evil? What gives them that authority?
(A.) Your question is unclear.
(B.) What is evil is evil. That plain.
(C.)Them? As in, the evil thoughts? Evil thoughts have authority? :? How strange. I did not know that.
01-08-2010, 10:30 PM
Carôusoul
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bonsay
The spirit is yourself as you experience "it".
Evil is whatever God says is evil.
God decides it, and his omnipotence gives him the power to do so and with this power comes authority.
The spirit is just yourself? Your mind?
The problem for me is that it seems so obvious that morality is something that has clearly developed over history based on human beings. If God announced to us that rape was suddenly a-ok. I don't think it would be.
01-08-2010, 10:31 PM
Tyler
Quote:
Originally Posted by Noogah
Evil thoughts have authority? :? How strange. I did not know that.
He means who decides that evil thoughts are evil?
And what person has the authority to make that call.
01-08-2010, 10:33 PM
Carôusoul
Quote:
Originally Posted by Noogah
Google Holy Spirit. You seem to have no knowledge of the Bible. It's a topic too broad for the scope of this thread.
I've read the bible probably more times than you. I'm not asking the bible though, I'm asking you. i want you to explain to me what you think it is. Unless I can assume you agree with everything in the bible.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Noogah
(B.) What is evil is evil. That plain.
(C.)Them? As in, the evil thoughts? Evil thoughts have authority? :? How strange. I did not know that.
B) You aren't answering something by saying evil just is evil.
C) No, "them" as in who decrees in your mind what is evil and what is not.
01-08-2010, 10:41 PM
Bonsay
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carôusoul
The spirit is just yourself? Your mind?
Yes, basically your mind is your spirit. Of course you're not supposed to delve deeper. Apparently you should take it as it stands, act as if the spirit was "the atom" - undividable. Anybody who has a human brain should be able to use simple logic and see reality isn't as simple as that, so that's why we shouldn't ask why the pedophile is a pedophile, we should just judge and burn him at the stake. That's the "gist" of christian logic on guilt in relation to the "soul".
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carôusoul
The problem for me is that it seems so obvious that morality is something that has clearly developed over history based on human beings. If God announced to us that rape was suddenly a-ok. I don't think it would be.
It's funny that you'd say that, because I've seen a "TheAtheistExperience" video on Youtube, where they had a Christian there. They were arguing about morality and it got to your question. "Would you kill your children if God told you to do it", the guy instantly said yes. So much for morality, right? It's not always like this though. I've often seen "them" respond by arguing that God wouldn't ask you to do this because his is good etc. I'm not going to act as if I can answer that question for them though.
01-08-2010, 10:45 PM
Carôusoul
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bonsay
Yes, basically your mind is your spirit. Of course you're not supposed to delve deeper. Apparently you should take it as it stands, act as if the spirit was "the atom" - undividable. Anybody who has a human brain should be able to use simple logic and see reality isn't as simple as that, so that's why we shouldn't ask why the pedophile is a pedophile, we should just judge and burn him at the stake. That's the "gist" of christian logic on guilt in relation to the "soul".
It's funny that you'd say that, because I've seen a "TheAtheistExperience" video on Youtube, where they had a Christian there. They were arguing about morality and it got to your question. "Would you kill your children if God told you to do it", the guy instantly said yes. So much for morality, right? It's not always like this though. I've often seen "them" respond by arguing that God wouldn't ask you to do this because his is good etc. I'm not going to act as if I can answer that question for them though.
Well said.
"God wouldn't ask you to do this because he is good"
That is wonderful. That's actually an admittance that God himself is subject to a moral law and guideline other than himself.
I guess I just can't get my head around people believing stuff like this that philosophers were moving on from a century ago.
01-08-2010, 11:11 PM
Supernova
Quote:
Originally Posted by Noogah
In fact, this is not so. Humankind is not what Satan wishes to destroy. In fact, he wants world peace. He wants cooperation with nations, and rest among people. He is not opposed to morals, or humanism. Not at all. In fact, he fully supports these things.
...
Satan is just as evil and disgusting as he ever was. His methods are wrong, and nothing can be right without the perfect ways of God.
I hope you realize that these are contradictory statements. Unless you are saying that doing that while doing the right thing in the name of god is right by doing the right thing just because it's the right thing to do is horribly wrong...seems a little odd to me.
01-08-2010, 11:16 PM
Idolfan
*None of Noogah's quoted scriptures mention Satan and Lucifer is a Catholic hoax*
