Thread: The Nature of Satan

Originally Posted by Mario92

I'll repeat myself: there really is no point in trying to argue with you.

Then I shan't pester you any longer, until you can...oh...I don't know. Explain yourself? Because I have no idea what I'm doing that should make you say that.

However, there is one small thing that distrubs me so much, I won't be able to rest until I repsond to it, and so I shall.

Originally Posted by Mario92

Let me guess, by using the bible, right?

That, and the Holy Spirit. Mind you, identification of evil. Like I said, I don't think evil is subjective. I think it exists, and I don't think that the Bible created it. Evil is there, and the Bible tells what it is, and the Holy Spirit aids Christians greatly. Unless, of course, you Evolutionists have an alternative method you use to prove that murder is evil.

Originally Posted by Noogah

Then I shan't pester you any longer, until you can...oh...I don't know. Explain yourself? Because I have no idea what I'm doing that should make you say that.

Wait for it...

That, and the Holy Spirit. Mind you, identification of evil. Like I said, I don't think evil is subjective. I think it exists, and I don't think that the Bible created it. Evil is there, and the Bible tells what it is, and the Holy Spirit aids Christians greatly. Unless, of course, you Evolutionists have an alternative method you use to prove that murder is evil.

Assertions assertions assertions. That's all you argue with is assertions. You have no proof nor evidence that the bible is truth, that the holy spirit exists, or that God exists. You may choose to believe so, but you are completely closed to reason and logic. No matter what kind of attack I mount, what tactics I use, how much evidence I compile, you will not budge; your mind is set.

Murder is "evil" at the moment because it is of hindrance to society and the progress of mankind. If people start killing each other left and right, how do you expect to grow as a civilization? But then again, murder is not exclusively evil. War would be one such example. it is not the most desirable means of dealing with a problem, but it cannot be considered evil when it is used in self-defense, or when soldiers don't really have much of a choice. There are exceptions to every rule. Now, say that the future rolls around and there are too damn many people. I can see murder being loosely justifiable...provided it advanced mankind and society for the better. Morals, mores, social norms, and the like all change with time. Nothing is permanent.

Here's a little example to demonstrate how twisted up and complicated the idea of EVIL gets in the real world....

Let's say you're walking though an alley beside a tall building in the middle of the day... the building is filled with people. In front of you are two men fiddling with wires or something, and suddenly you realize they're setting explosives around the building and preparing to blow it up. You hear them talking (they haven't seen you), and it becomes clear they're going to blow the building in just a few seconds... no time to call the police or any other authorities... they're just about to murder hundreds of innocent people right before your eyes.

Now... one of them has left a gun laying on a crate just in front of you.

It's up to you. With two quick pulls on the trigger you can save all those innocent people, or you can just slink away and hope the terrorists don't see you and try to live with yourself knowing you let them murder all those people.

... What does the bible say about a situation like this?

Also, as you heard them talking you realize they both have wives and children at home and they love them very much.

It's quite a sticky wicket, isn't it?

Now, where exactly does EVIL come in in this scenario? Are the terrorists evil?

And what if you kill them to save all those innocent souls? Are you then evil? Remember, as far as you know the men are actually innocent themselves... if you shoot them in time then they haven't killed anyone (as far as you know).... so you're killing innocent men. True they were PLANNING mass murder, but hadn't actually committed it yet.

Nobody can really say how they'd react in such a situation, but at least think honestly about it. Due to mitigating circumstances, what is clearly evil in one context can be less so... even necessary in others. Murder for instance.

Originally Posted by Mario92

Assertions assertions assertions. That's all you argue with is assertions. You have no proof nor evidence that the bible is truth, that the holy spirit exists, or that God exists.

Sure I do. But that's not with this thread is about. This thread is to debate the nature of Satan, not the existence of God or evil.

Originally Posted by Mario92

Murder is "evil" at the moment because it is of hindrance to society and the progress of mankind....Now, say that the future rolls around and there are too damn many people. I can see murder being loosely justifiable...provided it advanced mankind and society for the better.

Then I believe you are a rather sick person. Everybody has a right to live, as everybody is equal to everybody else. For an equal to kill an equal for no reason is sick and wrong.

Originally Posted by Darkmatters

It's up to you. With two quick pulls on the trigger you can save all those innocent people, or you can just slink away and hope the terrorists don't see you and try to live with yourself knowing you let them murder all those people.

... What does the bible say about a situation like this?

Nothing. Actually, this would be perfectly acceptable. You would not be murdering them, you would be shooting them in defense of about 5,000 other people. The Bible has nothing against defense, and fighting in war. Both are necessary at times. Also, I wouldn't try to kill them. I would shoot them in a sensitive spot with the intention of disabling them. Killing is rarely the only option.

A murder would be to got up to someone, shoot them in the head, and take all their money. No purpose. No justification.

Are the terrorists evil?

No, but what they're doing is evil.

Oh, and, if you guys respond, I might not be able to respond to you guys for a while. I think I'm getting sick, and I just can't debate when I'm sick. My mind turns to mush.

Originally Posted by Noogah

I just can't debate when I'm sick. My mind turns to mush.

You can't "debate" anyway.


To expand on this; I mean that in actual argument you state your viewpoint and then you give persuasive reasons as to why it's correct.

What you're doing is stating what you think over and over again. No justification, other than more things which are contentious. You're just shouting what you think is the case at someone and when they provide an argument you apparantely debate that simply by shouting what you think again. That is not debating.

This is what I mean in another post I did saying "assertions" repeatedly, because that's all your doing. You're asserting what you think is true over and over again. You're making massive assertions.

Shit like this:

Originally Posted by noogah

Everybody has a right to live, as everybody is equal to everybody else. For an equal to kill an equal for no reason is sick and wrong.

That is noyt an argument, iot's just you putting your fingers in your ears and repeatedly saying what you think. It's dumb and it isn't a debate, it's like trying to talk sense into a toddler who wants to live in his own fantasy world.

If someone asks a question don't reply just "no you are wrong it is actually like this", which is what you are doing. Instead reply "no you are wrong it is actually like this, and here are some clear undisputable reasons why:."

Originally Posted by Noogah

Then I believe you are a rather sick person. Everybody has a right to live, as everybody is equal to everybody else. For an equal to kill an equal for no reason is sick and wrong.

Everybody has a right to live? Everybody is equal? I'd like to see proof of these statements. What gives you the right to live and why would people be equal. I walk and look around, I sware, I've never seen an "equal" in my life. Face it, you have no rights and we are deffinitely not equal. We are naturally similar biologically, which has strong implications, but far from equal. Which is even more so supported by the various ways our societies have been structured. We structured our own rights, but there is no such thing as objective or innate rights. As much as people agree that they don't want to kill eacother, sooner or later you'll find somebody who will show you how many rights you have.

I think I'm gonna die. I've been sick for two days.

TWO DAYS FOLKS!!

When I come back, I have two whole pages to answer??

Could someone sum them up? Because I'm starting to feel sick again just looking at them.

Long story short: God probably doesn't exist, neither does Satan, this thread has become rather pointless, and has digressed into a discussion of whether or not Good and Evil are human constructs. The phenomenon over Egypt has come into play, and so has abiogenesis.

So, in summation, you've been thread jacked , we're having a fun debate, and if you call in a lock, so help me, I will strangle you refuse to acknowledge your existence.

Originally Posted by Noogah

Sure I do. But that's not with this thread is about. This thread is to debate the nature of Satan, not the existence of God or evil.

Well if there is no evil, then what is the nature of Satan? If you don't know what evil is, how can you identify something as evil? If you don't know what it is, how can you be sure it even exists? How do you know that Satan is evil and God is good? How do you know that God has not created us all as HIS slaves and Satan realized this and attempted to free humanity?

But, I do believe that you know what evil is, you just try to avoid the question, but you don't even really avoid it. You've already said that Satan, murder, and terrorism are evil. What is it that makes these things evil? If they are evil and Satan is evil then how are they related? Does Satan employ these devices? Is that what makes him evil?

Evil is the unknown, the darkness, Evil is your fear shown right in your face. Embrace it and know it's true nature.

Originally Posted by stonedape

Evil is the unknown, the darkness, Evil is your fear shown right in your face. Embrace it and know it's true nature.

Liked your post up until here. Evil is not just "the unknown" and "darkness". In fact they have alot more to do with fear, which we shouldn't really put together with "evil".

We have many moral philosophies and theories which would happily provide well thought out answers as to what exactly constitutes evil, without resorting to fantasies like religion. Frames based upon logic, and humans.

Also, just because we dismiss the outdated and archaic religious ideas of evil, it doesn't mean we dismiss morality.


Maybe I'm missing what your point was there, but it seems wrong, what you said.

Originally Posted by Carôusoul

Liked your post up until here. Evil is not just "the unknown" and "darkness". In fact they have alot more to do with fear, which we shouldn't really put together with "evil".

I like to think that the idea of evil was made out of fear. Things aren't considered evil unless they are dangerous or damaging. We look at some event or object and call it evil, but it is only evil because we fear it, we know that it can harm us.

Originally Posted by Carôusoul

Also, just because we dismiss the outdated and archaic religious ideas of evil, it doesn't mean we dismiss morality.

I agree, but I try not to use the word evil, I find it's misleading. I think it's important to fully understand what morality is, and looking at it in terms of good vs evil clouds that.

Originally Posted by Carôusoul

Maybe I'm missing what your point was there, but it seems wrong, what you said.

I was trying to express what I feel Christians have done to our culture. By claiming that certain things are evil, they are able to dehumanize people. They call the murderer evil and execute him.

In short, I don't think the inquisition will end until we stop calling things evil and recognize our problems for what they are.

Originally Posted by Noogah

Nothing. Actually, this would be perfectly acceptable. You would not be murdering them, you would be shooting them in defense of about 5,000 other people. The Bible has nothing against defense, and fighting in war. Both are necessary at times. Also, I wouldn't try to kill them. I would shoot them in a sensitive spot with the intention of disabling them. Killing is rarely the only option.

A murder would be to got up to someone, shoot them in the head, and take all their money. No purpose. No justification.

Ah, but it WOULD be murder. You don't have to steal money from someone for it to be considered murder... you just have to kill them. Legally it might be considered manslaughter, or justifiable homicide, but we're not talking about legalities (those are obviously dependent on social conditioning).

There's a commandment that clearly says "Thou shalt not kill". It doesn't say "Except insofar as there may be extenuating circumstances" or any other fine print... it just plainly and simply says Thou shalt not kill. You might argue that it's ok if God commands it, as he so frequently does in the bible (that's the justification terrorists usually use)... but in this case he didn't say a word. The choice is entirely up to YOU.

Shooting them in a non-lethal area is a good idea, but remember, all it takes is one of them to push a button... you'd need to kill them instantly in order to prevent the massacre.

But you said it would be perfectly acceptable. Where in the bible is this explained? Or did you just decide that yourself? If you did, then what you're saying is that it's ok for everyone to interpret the bible in their own way and make decisions accordingly. This translates to choice. Therefore you're saying the decision as to what is evil or not is up to each of us... it's not cut and dried and already decided for us.

It doesn't matter if you answer right away or not... what's important is that you really think about this.

Originally Posted by Noogah

you Evolutionists

^Hehe, cute.