Thread: The Nature of Satan

I'm going to have to go with Invader on this one Noogah and it has nothing to do with cute little blue stars by his name. I just think there is a valid point he's making which is overlooked by you. If you look at how this all stems down it's very apparent what Satan's motives are in the book of Job. He wants Man to think that he can govern himself and that God's ways are no good, plain and simple.

Originally Posted by ShadowNightWing

He wants Man to think that he can govern himself and that God's ways are no good, plain and simple.

But why?

Originally Posted by Invader

The deal about Satan having to bow before Adam is actually out of the Koran.

Invader, I don't want to sound like a nitwit, but I haven't the slightest what you're going on about. Either we're talking about two different things, or I'm just not following.

Originally Posted by Invader

That one is more prone to peace than the other.

MORE peace does not equal absolute peace, which will never be accomplished by him.

Originally Posted by Invader

What do I consider perfect?

Sorry, I didn't mean you specifically, I mean mankind as a whole. Would you consider it peaceful if all countries co-existed without war, and without debt? Yes, you would. Or at least, I should think you would.

But spiritual peace could never be achieved that way. Sin would still exist, and so would bitterness, anger, hate, etc.

Originally Posted by Invader

But the quote out of the bible doesn't specify that it's for Christians only.

Not that specific verse, of course. The information we have is collectively gathered from bits on him scattered throughout the Bible. But, if God is his absolute adversary, then so are Christians, and not mankind. Seems a fair theory to me, anyways.

Originally Posted by Invader

The following quote is from wikipedia, but it should make my concerns clear

Come now! You know better then that, don't you???

I could argue, but like you said, the Bible is off topic right now, and I'd prefer not to get into it in this thread.



Now, I could be wrong, of course. There is no reference in the Bible that explicitly states what I've said. For the most part, Satan is just an evil deity in the Bible. One which we are to avoid. I only thought discussing his nature would be interesting.

What is the point in discussing the nature non-existant figures?

Originally Posted by grasshoppa

What is the point in discussing the nature non-existant figures?

That's like saying what's the point in literary analysis, just because the characters aren't real.

Originally Posted by Noogah

Invader, I don't want to sound like a nitwit, but I haven't the slightest what you're going on about. Either we're talking about two different things, or I'm just not following.

Earlier I said something about Satan that you claimed was not out of the
bible (the bit about Satan prostrating, otherwise known as bowing, before
Adam). You were correct. That piece of the story came out of the Muslim's
holy book, the Koran, and I honestly thought it was in the bible as well. Alas,
I'm not terribly familiar with either of these texts, but enough so that I can
participate in the discussion.

Originally Posted by Noogah

MORE peace does not equal absolute peace, which will never be accomplished by him.

"More peace" may be enough to unite humanity under one flag in a way that
will allow them to manage themselves effectively.

Originally Posted by Noogah

Sorry, I didn't mean you specifically, I mean mankind as a whole. Would you consider it peaceful if all countries co-existed without war, and without debt? Yes, you would. Or at least, I should think you would.

But spiritual peace could never be achieved that way. Sin would still exist, and so would bitterness, anger, hate, etc.

Ah ah ah, the word was "perfect", not "peaceful". I'm not denying what I
think would be peaceful, but prior to this you claimed to know what I (or
rather humanity) thought was perfect.

Originally Posted by Noogah

Not that specific verse, of course. The information we have is collectively gathered from bits on him scattered throughout the Bible. But, if God is his absolute adversary, then so are Christians, and not mankind. Seems a fair theory to me, anyways.

Though humanity would still be the creation of his adversary in this case,
and with expectations of God to rise to the challenge and follow the divine
word. That's why temptation, as a religious concept, applies to all people.
It's a means of pulling them away from the God-being.

Originally Posted by Noogah

Come now! You know better then that, don't you???

That quote was nevertheless accurate.
Right, right, off topic.

Originally Posted by Noogah

I only thought discussing his nature would be interesting.

If it gives you another perspective, it should be interesting, yes.

Originally Posted by grasshoppa

What is the point in discussing the nature non-existant figures?

Whether or not these things exist is besides the point. It's being discussed
for what it represents: Authority, rebellion, humanity's capacity for peace (or
lack thereof) and whether or not humanity would be better off being
managed by this higher power, vs being managed by ourselves (possibly with
the aid of this rebellious character). Because of what Satan represents, he
exists as a philosophical concept as well as a theological one.



If you decide to post in this thread, make it a worthwhile post that actually contributes to the topic. Consider this fair warning.

Originally Posted by Invader

You were correct. That piece of the story came out of the Muslim's
holy book, the Koran, and I honestly thought it was in the bible as well.

Oh, oh, oh. Sorry, I forgot that.

Judging by the points you have brought up, I believe I need to redefine what I mean when I say "peace". I really mean peace, AND perfection, which can only be accomplished by The Prince of Peace, which is Jesus Christ.

Perhaps Satan could bring a considerable ammount of peace, but the world would remain imperfect spiritually, and physically as well, even if countries did cooperate. That notion makes world peace more or less uneffective. Sure, there might not be any war, but there would still be crime, violence, and even bitter/negative emotions like hate and sorrow. There would be a lack of spiritual fulfillment, which is what every human yearns for deep down. That can only be brought about by Jesus Christ.

Originally Posted by Invader

That's why temptation, as a religious concept, applies to all people.
It's a means of pulling them away from the God-being.

Well, of course. Chrisians and the world are both pulled from God, but Christians are naturally dealt with in a different way from nonbelievers.

I am confused. What exactly are we discussing here?

Originally Posted by Noogah

Oh, oh, oh. Sorry, I forgot that.

Judging by the points you have brought up, I believe I need to redefine what I mean when I say "peace". I really mean peace, AND perfection, which can only be accomplished by The Prince of Peace, which is Jesus Christ.

I hope you understand that you aren't redefining what you mean by peace by saying "I really mean peace". I don't think you even know what you mean by peace.


And what is perfection? Can you tell me that? Do you have any idea?

Originally Posted by Noogah

Perhaps Satan could bring a considerable ammount of peace, but the world would remain imperfect spiritually, and physically as well, even if countries did cooperate. That notion makes world peace more or less uneffective. Sure, there might not be any war, but there would still be crime, violence, and even bitter/negative emotions like hate and sorrow. There would be a lack of spiritual fulfillment, which is what every human yearns for deep down. That can only be brought about by Jesus Christ.

As well as shady usage of the word perfect here, what do you mean by spiritually? What is spiritual?

And what is perfection? Can you tell me that? Do you have any idea?

*sighs*

You would do well to read the material you are debating.

Originally Posted by Noogah

Not one evil thought.
No temptation.
No worries.
Not disaster.
No hate.
No chaos.

There is simply no physical means by which this could be accomplished. It is utterly impossible.

Sinless perfection is a basic Christian concept.

what do you mean by spiritually? What is spiritual?

The spirit. The unclean sin stained spirit we have can only be cleansed and made whole through Jesus Christ.

That is the whole point of Christianity.

Originally Posted by Noogah

The spirit. The unclean sin stained spirit we have can only be cleansed and made whole through Jesus Christ.

So what exactly is the spirit? you've just told me it is the spirit. You haven't at all elaborated what that actually is.



What makes an evil thought? Who decides what is evil? What gives them that authority?

Originally Posted by Noogah

The spirit. The unclean sin stained spirit we have can only be cleansed and made whole through Jesus Christ.

That is the whole point of Christianity.

Well the solution was given by Buddhists 500 years before Christ. So I guess we don't need him to be cleansed.

Originally Posted by Carôusoul

So what exactly is the spirit? you've just told me it is the spirit. You haven't at all elaborated what that actually is.



What makes an evil thought? Who decides what is evil? What gives them that authority?

The spirit is yourself as you experience "it".

Evil is whatever God says is evil.

God decides it, and his omnipotence gives him the power to do so and with this power comes authority.

Characteristics of Satan

1. Created by God, and not equal to God (Prov 16:4)

2. Defies God and despises truth (John 8:44)

3. Was given limited power (Job 1:8-12)

4. Was defeated at Calvary (Eph. 1:20-23)

5. Rules the masses outside God’s protection (Eph. 2:1-3)

6. Commands a hierarchy of demons (Eph. 6:10-12)

7. Came to steal, kill and destroy (John 10:10)

8. Masquerades as "an angel of light." (2 Cor. 11:14-15)

9. Tries to hide the actual truth about our God.

10. Twists the meaning of Scriptures to fit his purposes. (Gen. 3:1-5)

11. Offers counterfeit promises he can't fulfill

12. Always seeks an "opportune time" to tempt us (Luke 4:13)

NOT a very "cool" guy.

Then it's a good thing the Bible is most likely a book of fairy tales...that is, unless you have solid evidence to prove otherwise. Ah, but perhaps this is a debate for another thread...