Thread: The Nature of Satan

Originally Posted by Invader

Very much disagree. I think the whole point of Satan was to create this
opposition in viewpoints on the correct way of running things, and against
this highest authority figure. So, when this God creates man, and the most
favored (and rebellious) one steps in and disagrees with the way God is doing
things, he is cast away.

It sounds nice, but if we're following the Biblical story, then that is not how it happened.

I don't usually copy and paste, but there is so much written on the topic, I see no reason to write a whole new one.

Why did Satan fall from heaven? Satan fell because of pride. He desired to be God, not to be a servant of God. Notice the many “I will...” statements in Isaiah 14:12-15. Ezekiel 28:12-15 describes Satan as an exceedingly beautiful angel. Satan was likely the highest of all angels, the most beautiful of all of God's creations, but he was not content in his position. Instead, Satan desired to be God, to essentially “kick God off His throne” and take over the rule of the universe. Satan wanted to be God, and interestingly enough, that is what Satan tempted Adam and Eve with in the Garden of Eden (Genesis 3:1-5). How did Satan fall from heaven? Actually, a fall is not an accurate description. It would be far more accurate to say God cast Satan out of heaven (Isaiah 14:15; Ezekiel 28:16-17). Satan did not fall from heaven; rather, Satan was pushed out of heaven.

Courtesy of gotquestions.org

Originally Posted by Invader

Christians were originally supposed to believe in
one God only before they began to worship Jesus instead, but to say that
Satan is a god as well is polytheistic.

In this context, I mean that he is the leader of the world that rejected God. He is not a god, nor is he the god of Christians.

Originally Posted by Invader

The whole point of this is that this figure, Satan, believes he can prove otherwise.

It's been seven thousand years. He hasn't shown his ability to produce much peace yet, has he?

Originally Posted by Mario92

But he sounds like such a cool guy...

Again, I don't usually copy paste, buuuutttt.....

Characteristics of Satan

1. Created by God, and not equal to God (Prov 16:4)

2. Defies God and despises truth (John 8:44)

3. Was given limited power (Job 1:8-12)

4. Was defeated at Calvary (Eph. 1:20-23)

5. Rules the masses outside God’s protection (Eph. 2:1-3)

6. Commands a hierarchy of demons (Eph. 6:10-12)

7. Came to steal, kill and destroy (John 10:10)

8. Masquerades as "an angel of light." (2 Cor. 11:14-15)

9. Tries to hide the actual truth about our God.

10. Twists the meaning of Scriptures to fit his purposes. (Gen. 3:1-5)

11. Offers counterfeit promises he can't fulfill

12. Always seeks an "opportune time" to tempt us (Luke 4:13)

Courtesy of, crossroads.to

NOT a very "cool" guy.

Originally Posted by Noogah

It sounds nice, but if we're following the Biblical story, then that is not how it happened.

But that was how it occurred in the story, isn't it? Satan is told to
prostrate himself before the human being, and declining to do so was the
kicker. Satan's pride says nothing about him wanting to dominate the
heavens. After this "fall" of his, he decides to prove to God that man was
never really worthy of him by seducing man away from "God's ways". In this
way Satan is able to justify himself in that he should not have bowed to a
lesser creature.

Satan wanted to be God, and interestingly enough, that is what Satan tempted Adam and Eve with in the Garden of Eden

Non sequitur. His actions have no logical connection to wanting to be God.

Originally Posted by Noogah

It's been seven thousand years. He hasn't shown his ability to produce much peace yet, has he?

The recent advent of communication and means of distributing education to
the masses is making the newer generations more tolerant of others. Prior to
that, people were very much disconnected from each other across the globe,
and a unified "one world" kingdom could not be achieved. That's assuming
that peace would be the goal at all.

7. Came to steal, kill and destroy (John 10:10)

That is a direct contradiction to the claim that he wishes to make peace for us.

10. Twists the meaning of Scriptures to fit his purposes. (Gen. 3:1-5)

This is also a very interesting one, considering the Bible's revisions throughout history.

Originally Posted by Invader

But that was how it occurred in the story, isn't it?

......no.....did you read the verses? Or do you have another reference?

Originally Posted by Invader

Non sequitur. His actions have no logical connection to wanting to be God.

By encouraging the fall of mankind, he made mankind vulnerable to his rule, giving him power over mankind. This does indeed contribute to his power.

Originally Posted by Invader

The recent advent of communication and means of distributing education to
the masses is making the newer generations more tolerant of others. Prior to
that, people were very much disconnected from each other across the globe,
and a unified "one world" kingdom could not be achieved.

He has done nothing. Advancement in communication has only allowed us to watch brutal battles from our homes. It has allowed private and convenient communication channels for terrorists. It has allowed people to secretly plot crime over long distances.

With the advantages towards peace have also come greater chaos, and disadvantages.

What you consider perfection is not perfection by God. God's perfect world has nothing bad. Impossible to comprehend.
Not one evil thought.
No temptation.
No worries.
Not disaster.
No hate.
No chaos.

There is simply no physical means by which this could be accomplished. It is utterly impossible.

Originally Posted by Invader

That is a direct contradiction to the claim that he wishes to make peace for us.

No, I said he wants peace for humanity, and destruction for Christians. And either way, he has accomplished destruction no matter his goals.

Originally Posted by Invader

This is also a very interesting one, considering the Bible's revisions throughout history.

You mean the translations from one language into another? Hardly a "revision". There is a fine line between twiating and translating. The King James Bible has been praised on numerous occasions for it's fine and seemless translation from the original texts into English.

Originally Posted by Noogah

......no.....did you read the verses? Or do you have another reference?

Eh, both. First off,
"For thou hast said in thine heart"
You can probably tell me who is writing that passage of the bible. If Satan
does not actually claim this, literally, out loud for another to hear, how is it
known to anyone at all?

The deal about Satan having to bow before Adam is actually out of the Koran.
No longer relevant here then.

Originally Posted by Noogah

By encouraging the fall of mankind, he made mankind vulnerable to his rule, giving him power over mankind. This does indeed contribute to his power.

Still, it doesn't follow that such an action gives away his desire to be God.
The will to destroy or damage doesn't always accompany the wish to rule
over that which you are destroying/damaging, much less rule on high over
your current boss, so to speak.

Originally Posted by Noogah

He has done nothing. Advancement in communication has only allowed us to watch brutal battles from our homes. It has allowed private and convenient communication channels for terrorists. It has allowed people to secretly plot crime over long distances.

Sure. But you can see the difference shared by the educated and
uneducated masses. That one is generally more tolerant to difference than
the other. That one is more prone to peace than the other. The human
lifespan is increasing, too.

The capacity for war and general violence, however, is not isolated to human
beings. Our increased communications is only allowing us to play out what
we've been doing for ages. Relative peace, however, should be rising with
education.

Originally Posted by Noogah

What you consider perfection is not perfection by God.

What do I consider perfect?

Originally Posted by Noogah

Not one evil thought.
No temptation.
No worries.
Not disaster.
No hate.
No chaos.

There is simply no physical means by which this could be accomplished. It is utterly impossible.

Ending all life would fulfill that list.

Originally Posted by Noogah

No, I said he wants peace for humanity, and destruction for Christians. And either way, he has accomplished destruction no matter his goals.

But the quote out of the bible doesn't specify that it's for Christians only.
Unless it does, in which case you can honor me with the appropriate links.

Originally Posted by Noogah

You mean the translations from one language into another?

The following quote is from wikipedia, but it should make my concerns clear:

The Authorized King James Version of 1611 was sporadically altered until 1769, but was not thoroughly updated until the creation of the Revised Version in 1885. These formal equivalence or literal translations have been continued with further modifications to the King James and Revised Versions, including the Revised Standard Version (1952), the New Revised Standard Version (1989), and the English Standard Version (2001).

Originally Posted by http://www.carm.org/christianity/bible/do-lost-books-bible-prove-bible-has-been-altered

Nevertheless, in spite of these problems the Roman Catholic church has added certain books to the canon of scripture. In 1546, largely due in response to the Reformation, the Roman Catholic church authorized several more books as scripture known as the apocrypha.

Look, the point about the bible having been altered is something I want to
address, but it goes off the topic of this particular thread. Additionally, there
are other members here that I would trust more with the matter of bible
alteration than I could hope to speak of myself.

I'm going to have to go with Invader on this one Noogah and it has nothing to do with cute little blue stars by his name. I just think there is a valid point he's making which is overlooked by you. If you look at how this all stems down it's very apparent what Satan's motives are in the book of Job. He wants Man to think that he can govern himself and that God's ways are no good, plain and simple.

Originally Posted by ShadowNightWing

He wants Man to think that he can govern himself and that God's ways are no good, plain and simple.

But why?

Originally Posted by Invader

The deal about Satan having to bow before Adam is actually out of the Koran.

Invader, I don't want to sound like a nitwit, but I haven't the slightest what you're going on about. Either we're talking about two different things, or I'm just not following.

Originally Posted by Invader

That one is more prone to peace than the other.

MORE peace does not equal absolute peace, which will never be accomplished by him.

Originally Posted by Invader

What do I consider perfect?

Sorry, I didn't mean you specifically, I mean mankind as a whole. Would you consider it peaceful if all countries co-existed without war, and without debt? Yes, you would. Or at least, I should think you would.

But spiritual peace could never be achieved that way. Sin would still exist, and so would bitterness, anger, hate, etc.

Originally Posted by Invader

But the quote out of the bible doesn't specify that it's for Christians only.

Not that specific verse, of course. The information we have is collectively gathered from bits on him scattered throughout the Bible. But, if God is his absolute adversary, then so are Christians, and not mankind. Seems a fair theory to me, anyways.

Originally Posted by Invader

The following quote is from wikipedia, but it should make my concerns clear

Come now! You know better then that, don't you???

I could argue, but like you said, the Bible is off topic right now, and I'd prefer not to get into it in this thread.



Now, I could be wrong, of course. There is no reference in the Bible that explicitly states what I've said. For the most part, Satan is just an evil deity in the Bible. One which we are to avoid. I only thought discussing his nature would be interesting.

What is the point in discussing the nature non-existant figures?

Originally Posted by Noogah

Invader, I don't want to sound like a nitwit, but I haven't the slightest what you're going on about. Either we're talking about two different things, or I'm just not following.

Earlier I said something about Satan that you claimed was not out of the
bible (the bit about Satan prostrating, otherwise known as bowing, before
Adam). You were correct. That piece of the story came out of the Muslim's
holy book, the Koran, and I honestly thought it was in the bible as well. Alas,
I'm not terribly familiar with either of these texts, but enough so that I can
participate in the discussion.

Originally Posted by Noogah

MORE peace does not equal absolute peace, which will never be accomplished by him.

"More peace" may be enough to unite humanity under one flag in a way that
will allow them to manage themselves effectively.

Originally Posted by Noogah

Sorry, I didn't mean you specifically, I mean mankind as a whole. Would you consider it peaceful if all countries co-existed without war, and without debt? Yes, you would. Or at least, I should think you would.

But spiritual peace could never be achieved that way. Sin would still exist, and so would bitterness, anger, hate, etc.

Ah ah ah, the word was "perfect", not "peaceful". I'm not denying what I
think would be peaceful, but prior to this you claimed to know what I (or
rather humanity) thought was perfect.

Originally Posted by Noogah

Not that specific verse, of course. The information we have is collectively gathered from bits on him scattered throughout the Bible. But, if God is his absolute adversary, then so are Christians, and not mankind. Seems a fair theory to me, anyways.

Though humanity would still be the creation of his adversary in this case,
and with expectations of God to rise to the challenge and follow the divine
word. That's why temptation, as a religious concept, applies to all people.
It's a means of pulling them away from the God-being.

Originally Posted by Noogah

Come now! You know better then that, don't you???

That quote was nevertheless accurate.
Right, right, off topic.

Originally Posted by Noogah

I only thought discussing his nature would be interesting.

If it gives you another perspective, it should be interesting, yes.

Originally Posted by grasshoppa

What is the point in discussing the nature non-existant figures?

Whether or not these things exist is besides the point. It's being discussed
for what it represents: Authority, rebellion, humanity's capacity for peace (or
lack thereof) and whether or not humanity would be better off being
managed by this higher power, vs being managed by ourselves (possibly with
the aid of this rebellious character). Because of what Satan represents, he
exists as a philosophical concept as well as a theological one.



If you decide to post in this thread, make it a worthwhile post that actually contributes to the topic. Consider this fair warning.

Originally Posted by Noogah

No, I said he wants peace for humanity, and destruction for Christians. And either way, he has accomplished destruction no matter his goals.

Satan does NOT want peace. Satan gives the illusion of the desire for peace to trick creation. His real desire is domination. He is the father of all lies. When he wins everyone over they are in for a nasty surprise. HELL. Think of your worst nightmare and that will be your hell. Of course, according to the Holy Book of Fairy Tales, God wins in the end. I learned this when I was a "faithful christian".

Young preacher, study history, study science, better yet go to church and actually listen. Write down all of the times you hear "the word" and say to yourself, "huh?" What they say in church does not match up with the truth. Take your bible out whenever there is an impending church split and ask the elders to actually follow the word. You will see.

Originally Posted by Bonsay

It's funny that you'd say that, because I've seen a "TheAtheistExperience" video on Youtube, where they had a Christian there. They were arguing about morality and it got to your question. "Would you kill your children if God told you to do it", the guy instantly said yes. So much for morality, right? It's not always like this though. I've often seen "them" respond by arguing that God wouldn't ask you to do this because his is good etc. I'm not going to act as if I can answer that question for them though.

God has asked Abraham to kill his son which Abraham accepted to do.

God then told Abraham that he had only asked that to test Abraham's answer but that he didn't actually want him to kill his son. But that doesn't change anything. Abraham still didn't have enough morals to no better than kill his own son. This also means that God could easily ask anyone to kill people they love and if God did not stop them in time, this could end in murder.

It is like playing with fire. You play with it and then, by mistake, you start a fire. God might not be playing with fire, but he is playing with Death. This is immoral. And I have more authority then a fairy tale character to say what's moral and what's not.

Originally Posted by Noogah

It's been seven thousand years. He hasn't shown his ability to produce much peace yet, has he?

Jesus also had his turn and failed.
God did create perfection but it seems that he is easy to give up. He created something perfect. Someone came and made it unperfect very easily, meaning that it wasn't so perfect if it was easy to destroy, and God destroyed it even more out of anger rather than building it up again.

Originally Posted by SleepyCookieDough

Jesus also had his turn and failed.

You mean besides pathing the way for all humanity to gain teh Holy Spirit,a nd a place with him in Heaven?

He created something perfect. Someone came and made it unperfect very easily

He made thew world perfect.

He gave us a choice. We were not to eat of the forbidden fruit.

We did anyways.

We caused our own fate.

He came and made a new way.

Originally Posted by Noogah

You mean besides pathing the way for all humanity to gain teh Holy Spirit,a nd a place with him in Heaven?

That is not the definition of perfect like you said. You said only Jesus could make the world perfect again and that perfect would be the total elimination of negative thoughts, feelings and actions. However, when Jesus came, he did not achieve that.

Originally Posted by Noogah

He made thew world perfect.

He gave us a choice. We were not to eat of the forbidden fruit.

We did anyways.

We caused our own fate.

He came and made a new way. He kicked us out and doomed us. He then regreted his actions and came to make a new way

I corrected your last sentence.

Anyways,
Why would God over react about us not listening to him for the first time. When I did not listen to my parents the first time, they did not kick me out of the house. They told me not to do it again and they explained me why it was wrong and I did it again and they told me again and made me go in the little cornor for a time out for me to think about what I did and then after these parental actions, I've finally stopped doing it because they taught me to. I'm happy God was not my dad. I find much more strenght and patience in my parents than in GOd.

However, when Jesus came, he did not achieve that.

No, that wasn't the plan. He left, to later return. He isn't finished yet. His time on earth was to provide a way. His time away from earth is to allow people a chance. When he comes back, he will perfect it.

I corrected your last sentence I discorrected your last sentence

I corrected your last sentence

Fact is, he died in place of us, in turn giving us a chance for spiritual perfection.

Why would God over react about us not listening to him for the first time.

It wasn't his choice. It was an inevitable consequence. From the beginning, picking the fruit would bare that curse. He didn't make it up off the top of his head.

Originally Posted by Noogah

No, that wasn't the plan. He left, to later return. He isn't finished yet. His time on earth was to provide a way. His time away from earth is to allow people a chance. When he comes back, he will perfect it.

I guess you might be right for that but I feel more time he will take to come, less people will believe in him because his existence and message are becoming very old, dusty and forgoten. When you say he is giving people a chance by coming later, he's actually doing the oposite.

Originally Posted by Noogah

I corrected your last sentence

Fact is, he died in place of us, in turn giving us a chance for spiritual perfection.

lol (for your recorrection)

This is the stupidest thing I've ever heard though. Jesus is God, God is Jesus, God is the Holy Spirit, The holy Spirit is God, The Holy Spirit is Jesus, Jesus is the Holy Spirit. They are all the same. But that's just to say that Jesus and God are the same person. God created people who betreyed him. Why would God kill himself to give a chance of spiritual perfection to the people he created. It just doesn't make sense. God does not need to do things like killing himself to forgive his people and give them another chance. Or are you saying God has a major brain damage and needs to commit suicide to give people a second chance?

Originally Posted by Noogah

It wasn't his choice. It was an inevitable consequence. From the beginning, picking the fruit would bare that curse. He didn't make it up off the top of his head.

You're saying the fruit was more powerful than God. God couldn't chose what would happen if they touched the fruit. He was powerless. let me requote what you said:

Originally Posted by Noogah

It wasn't his choice

God once did not have a choice? God does not always have the power to chose and sometimes he is limited to only one action?

Originally Posted by Noogah

He didn't make it up off the top of his head.

God did not create everything. Some random curses just hapened to haunt fruits he had created. God did not create a perfect world. Some of the thing he had created were poisoned with curses.