Thread: The Nature of Satan

Hello R/S! Nice to be back!



It's interesting to note the ways that people identify God and Satan. To most, it's quite simply, Satan=Bad, God=Good.

To an extent, this is so. No evil has entered the world by God's hand. It was all spawned by Satan, although it was the choice of mankind to allow him into the world, so we are definitely responsible. However, Satan is the god of the world, and all sin is spawned from him, his angels (or demons) and the fleshly desires of mankind.

But besides all this, people's view of Satan is extremely limited. They seem to believe he is just an evil being who mindlessly attempts to destroy all things, and to make all things bad without a reason.

In fact, this is not so. Humankind is not what Satan wishes to destroy. In fact, he wants world peace. He wants cooperation with nations, and rest among people. He is not opposed to morals, or humanism. Not at all. In fact, he fully supports these things.

Satan does not wish to destroy humankind. He wishes to destroy God. He want's rise above God; to be the ultimate authority and control over man, and over the universe.

Spoiler for Isaiah 14:12-15 (King James Version):

12How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!

13For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:

14I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.

15Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.

We can observe in the world around us. Yes, it is disgusting and vile, but is that the ultimate aim of the populous? No!

I do not support Barrack Obama. I feel that his methods of balancing and running our country, making peace with enemies are irresponsible at best. However, is his intent malicious? To my knowledge, no. In fact, his intentions are quite honorable. Change! and Peace! Anything wicked, vile, and disgusting about that? Nope. But take notice of his spiritual side. He tried to remove the manger scene from the White House. A tradition, that to my knowledge, has been kept for a very long time. He changed (or tried to change) the saying from Merry Christmas, to Happy Holidays. The church he formerly attended before taking office was...well...you get the point. His actions suggest a weak faith, if any faith at all.

But the WORLD supported him completely. Keep in mind, Satan is the god of the world.

I could go on and on about politics, but to the point, Satan wants morals without God. He would like peace in the world, and would like to make the world a better place. He just wants to leave God out of it.

There is a problem. There simply cannot be peace, without the prince of peace, which is Jesus Christ.

Satan, however, prays on the Christian, because Christians are the people God, Christian's are also his enemy. He attempts make their lives unappealing. To tempt them, and lead them as far astray from the true God as he can. To make his ways seem so much easier then the RIGHT way.

So, is the fall of Satan unreasonable? Was it wrong to cast Satan from heaven? Afterall, by now, you may be thinking, he doesn't seem so bad. But you would be gravely mistaken.

Spoiler for Ezekiel 28:13-15 (King James Version):

13Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.

14Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.

15Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.

Satan was HIGHLY favored in Heaven. Perfect in all ways, apparently. It is reasonable to assume he also had high status, and possibly power over all the other angels.

But that wasn't enough for Satan. After being set so high, being given so much, and being made so well, it was not enough for him. Satan wanted to BE God, and plotted thusly. Against the very one who had so generously made him who he was. And so, he was thrown from Heaven, where he tried to take man from God.

Satan is just as evil and disgusting as he ever was. His methods are wrong, and nothing can be right without the perfect ways of God.

Spoiler for In a nutshell:

Humanity is not Satan's enemy, God is, and in turn so are Christians.Satan wants to rule over God.

Discuss.

Good to have you back, mate.

Onto your post, then...

Originally Posted by Noogah

Hello R/S! Nice to be back!

Welcome Back.

It's interesting to note the ways that people identify God and Satan. To most, it's quite simply, Satan=Bad, God=Good.

To an extent, this is so. No evil has entered the world by God's hand. It was all spawned by Satan, although it was the choice of mankind to allow him into the world, so we are definitely responsible. However, Satan is the god of the world, and all sin is spawned from him, his angels (or demons) and the fleshly desires of mankind.

Not so sure I agree with this...

But besides all this, people's view of Satan is extremely limited. They seem to believe he is just an evil being who mindlessly attempts to destroy all things, and to make all things bad without a reason.

I'd say that's a fair assessment.

In fact, this is not so. Humankind is not what Satan wishes to destroy. In fact, he wants world peace. He wants cooperation with nations, and rest among people. He is not opposed to morals, or humanism. Not at all. In fact, he fully supports these things.

Satan does not wish to destroy humankind. He wishes to destroy God. He want's rise above God; to be the ultimate authority and control over man, and over the universe.

He doesn't sound like such a bad guy, really.

Spoiler for Isaiah 14:12-15 (King James Version):

12How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!

13For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:

14I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.

15Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.

We can observe in the world around us. Yes, it is disgusting and vile, but is that the ultimate aim of the populous? No!

I do not support Barrack Obama. I feel that his methods of balancing and running our country, making peace with enemies are irresponsible at best. However, is his intent malicious? To my knowledge, no. In fact, his intentions are quite honorable. Change! and Peace! Anything wicked, vile, and disgusting about that? Nope. But take notice of his spiritual side. He tried to remove the manger scene from the White House. A tradition, that to my knowledge, has been kept for a very long time. He changed (or tried to change) the saying from Merry Christmas, to Happy Holidays. The church he formerly attended before taking office was...well...you get the point. His actions suggest a weak faith, if any faith at all.

But the WORLD supported him completely. Keep in mind, Satan is the god of the world.

I support Obama and his relative lack of faith. I'd say that it's about time we had a nonreligious president.

I could go on and on about politics, but to the point, Satan wants morals without God. He would like peace in the world, and would like to make the world a better place. He just wants to leave God out of it.

...and studies have shown time and time again that religion is not a prerequisite to morality.

There is a problem. There simply cannot be peace, without the prince of peace, which is Jesus Christ.

I disagree with this.

Satan, however, prays on the Christian, because Christians are the people God, Christian's are also his enemy. He attempts make their lives unappealing. To tempt them, and lead them as far astray from the true God as he can. To make his ways seem so much easier then the RIGHT way.

Interesting...guess it's a good thing I'm an atheist, then...

So, is the fall of Satan unreasonable? Was it wrong to cast Satan from heaven? Afterall, by now, you may be thinking, he doesn't seem so bad. But you would be gravely mistaken.

You said it...he sounds like a pretty cool guy. When can we get around to usurping God?

Spoiler for Ezekiel 28:13-15 (King James Version):

13Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.

14Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.

15Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.

Satan was HIGHLY favored in Heaven. Perfect in all ways, apparently. It is reasonable to assume he also had high status, and possibly power over all the other angels.

But that wasn't enough for Satan. After being set so high, being given so much, and being made so well, it was not enough for him. Satan wanted to BE God, and plotted thusly. Against the very one who had so generously made him who he was. And so, he was thrown from Heaven, where he tried to take man from God.

Who wouldn't want to take over the grand throne?

Satan is just as evil and disgusting as he ever was. His methods are wrong, and nothing can be right without the perfect ways of God.

But he sounds like such a cool guy...

Spoiler for In a nutshell:

Humanity is not Satan's enemy, God is, and in turn so are Christians.Satan wants to rule over God.

Once more, it's a good thing I'm atheist.

Discuss.

I beg to differ...first off, I would like to open with the argument that the Bible could very well be little more than a book of fairy tales (no offense intended to anyone), and as of yet, I'm seeing a shocking lack of evidence that dismisses this notion at all. Indeed, the onus of proof is on the one making the positive claim, and as of yet, no convincing evidence has been brought to light that God or Satan must exist...in fact, it's beginning to seem like quite the opposite is true. While science can not yet explain everything about the universe, we continue to unravel its mysteries, marching ever closer to total or near-total understanding. Will we solve everything within this generation, or century, even the millennium? Probably not. It will take time. However, I do not see any reason why we should place God as the cause of all that we do not understand until we figure it out.

My two cents.

Originally Posted by Noogah

Satan does not wish to destroy humankind. He wishes to destroy God.

Very much disagree. I think the whole point of Satan was to create this
opposition in viewpoints on the correct way of running things, and against
this highest authority figure. So, when this God creates man, and the most
favored (and rebellious) one steps in and disagrees with the way God is doing
things, he is cast away. The ultimate goal in the long run is for Satan to
prove that his ways will be valued higher than the ways of God as brought to
the people by whatever prophets.

In a nutshell:
"Humankind can manage themselves."

Originally Posted by Noogah

He changed (or tried to change) the saying from Merry Christmas, to Happy Holidays. The church he formerly attended before taking office was...well...you get the point. His actions suggest a weak faith, if any faith at all.

This is sidetracking a bit, but it suggests an openness to all faiths by saying
'happy holidays' as opposed to restricting the greeting to one religion.
Wanting to acknowledging multiple religious holidays hardly suggests lack of faith.

Originally Posted by Noogah

But the WORLD supported him completely. Keep in mind, Satan is the god of the world.

What do you mean by that? Christians were originally supposed to believe in
one God only before they began to worship Jesus instead, but to say that
Satan is a god as well is polytheistic.

Originally Posted by Noogah

but to the point, Satan wants morals without God. He would like peace in the world, and would like to make the world a better place. He just wants to leave God out of it.

Right.

Originally Posted by Noogah

There is a problem. There simply cannot be peace, without the prince of peace, which is Jesus Christ.

The whole point of this is that this figure, Satan, believes he can prove otherwise.

Originally Posted by Invader

Very much disagree. I think the whole point of Satan was to create this
opposition in viewpoints on the correct way of running things, and against
this highest authority figure. So, when this God creates man, and the most
favored (and rebellious) one steps in and disagrees with the way God is doing
things, he is cast away.

It sounds nice, but if we're following the Biblical story, then that is not how it happened.

I don't usually copy and paste, but there is so much written on the topic, I see no reason to write a whole new one.

Why did Satan fall from heaven? Satan fell because of pride. He desired to be God, not to be a servant of God. Notice the many “I will...” statements in Isaiah 14:12-15. Ezekiel 28:12-15 describes Satan as an exceedingly beautiful angel. Satan was likely the highest of all angels, the most beautiful of all of God's creations, but he was not content in his position. Instead, Satan desired to be God, to essentially “kick God off His throne” and take over the rule of the universe. Satan wanted to be God, and interestingly enough, that is what Satan tempted Adam and Eve with in the Garden of Eden (Genesis 3:1-5). How did Satan fall from heaven? Actually, a fall is not an accurate description. It would be far more accurate to say God cast Satan out of heaven (Isaiah 14:15; Ezekiel 28:16-17). Satan did not fall from heaven; rather, Satan was pushed out of heaven.

Courtesy of gotquestions.org

Originally Posted by Invader

Christians were originally supposed to believe in
one God only before they began to worship Jesus instead, but to say that
Satan is a god as well is polytheistic.

In this context, I mean that he is the leader of the world that rejected God. He is not a god, nor is he the god of Christians.

Originally Posted by Invader

The whole point of this is that this figure, Satan, believes he can prove otherwise.

It's been seven thousand years. He hasn't shown his ability to produce much peace yet, has he?

Originally Posted by Mario92

But he sounds like such a cool guy...

Again, I don't usually copy paste, buuuutttt.....

Characteristics of Satan

1. Created by God, and not equal to God (Prov 16:4)

2. Defies God and despises truth (John 8:44)

3. Was given limited power (Job 1:8-12)

4. Was defeated at Calvary (Eph. 1:20-23)

5. Rules the masses outside God’s protection (Eph. 2:1-3)

6. Commands a hierarchy of demons (Eph. 6:10-12)

7. Came to steal, kill and destroy (John 10:10)

8. Masquerades as "an angel of light." (2 Cor. 11:14-15)

9. Tries to hide the actual truth about our God.

10. Twists the meaning of Scriptures to fit his purposes. (Gen. 3:1-5)

11. Offers counterfeit promises he can't fulfill

12. Always seeks an "opportune time" to tempt us (Luke 4:13)

Courtesy of, crossroads.to

NOT a very "cool" guy.

Originally Posted by Noogah

It sounds nice, but if we're following the Biblical story, then that is not how it happened.

But that was how it occurred in the story, isn't it? Satan is told to
prostrate himself before the human being, and declining to do so was the
kicker. Satan's pride says nothing about him wanting to dominate the
heavens. After this "fall" of his, he decides to prove to God that man was
never really worthy of him by seducing man away from "God's ways". In this
way Satan is able to justify himself in that he should not have bowed to a
lesser creature.

Satan wanted to be God, and interestingly enough, that is what Satan tempted Adam and Eve with in the Garden of Eden

Non sequitur. His actions have no logical connection to wanting to be God.

Originally Posted by Noogah

It's been seven thousand years. He hasn't shown his ability to produce much peace yet, has he?

The recent advent of communication and means of distributing education to
the masses is making the newer generations more tolerant of others. Prior to
that, people were very much disconnected from each other across the globe,
and a unified "one world" kingdom could not be achieved. That's assuming
that peace would be the goal at all.

7. Came to steal, kill and destroy (John 10:10)

That is a direct contradiction to the claim that he wishes to make peace for us.

10. Twists the meaning of Scriptures to fit his purposes. (Gen. 3:1-5)

This is also a very interesting one, considering the Bible's revisions throughout history.

Originally Posted by Invader

But that was how it occurred in the story, isn't it?

......no.....did you read the verses? Or do you have another reference?

Originally Posted by Invader

Non sequitur. His actions have no logical connection to wanting to be God.

By encouraging the fall of mankind, he made mankind vulnerable to his rule, giving him power over mankind. This does indeed contribute to his power.

Originally Posted by Invader

The recent advent of communication and means of distributing education to
the masses is making the newer generations more tolerant of others. Prior to
that, people were very much disconnected from each other across the globe,
and a unified "one world" kingdom could not be achieved.

He has done nothing. Advancement in communication has only allowed us to watch brutal battles from our homes. It has allowed private and convenient communication channels for terrorists. It has allowed people to secretly plot crime over long distances.

With the advantages towards peace have also come greater chaos, and disadvantages.

What you consider perfection is not perfection by God. God's perfect world has nothing bad. Impossible to comprehend.
Not one evil thought.
No temptation.
No worries.
Not disaster.
No hate.
No chaos.

There is simply no physical means by which this could be accomplished. It is utterly impossible.

Originally Posted by Invader

That is a direct contradiction to the claim that he wishes to make peace for us.

No, I said he wants peace for humanity, and destruction for Christians. And either way, he has accomplished destruction no matter his goals.

Originally Posted by Invader

This is also a very interesting one, considering the Bible's revisions throughout history.

You mean the translations from one language into another? Hardly a "revision". There is a fine line between twiating and translating. The King James Bible has been praised on numerous occasions for it's fine and seemless translation from the original texts into English.

Originally Posted by Noogah

......no.....did you read the verses? Or do you have another reference?

Eh, both. First off,
"For thou hast said in thine heart"
You can probably tell me who is writing that passage of the bible. If Satan
does not actually claim this, literally, out loud for another to hear, how is it
known to anyone at all?

The deal about Satan having to bow before Adam is actually out of the Koran.
No longer relevant here then.

Originally Posted by Noogah

By encouraging the fall of mankind, he made mankind vulnerable to his rule, giving him power over mankind. This does indeed contribute to his power.

Still, it doesn't follow that such an action gives away his desire to be God.
The will to destroy or damage doesn't always accompany the wish to rule
over that which you are destroying/damaging, much less rule on high over
your current boss, so to speak.

Originally Posted by Noogah

He has done nothing. Advancement in communication has only allowed us to watch brutal battles from our homes. It has allowed private and convenient communication channels for terrorists. It has allowed people to secretly plot crime over long distances.

Sure. But you can see the difference shared by the educated and
uneducated masses. That one is generally more tolerant to difference than
the other. That one is more prone to peace than the other. The human
lifespan is increasing, too.

The capacity for war and general violence, however, is not isolated to human
beings. Our increased communications is only allowing us to play out what
we've been doing for ages. Relative peace, however, should be rising with
education.

Originally Posted by Noogah

What you consider perfection is not perfection by God.

What do I consider perfect?

Originally Posted by Noogah

Not one evil thought.
No temptation.
No worries.
Not disaster.
No hate.
No chaos.

There is simply no physical means by which this could be accomplished. It is utterly impossible.

Ending all life would fulfill that list.

Originally Posted by Noogah

No, I said he wants peace for humanity, and destruction for Christians. And either way, he has accomplished destruction no matter his goals.

But the quote out of the bible doesn't specify that it's for Christians only.
Unless it does, in which case you can honor me with the appropriate links.

Originally Posted by Noogah

You mean the translations from one language into another?

The following quote is from wikipedia, but it should make my concerns clear:

The Authorized King James Version of 1611 was sporadically altered until 1769, but was not thoroughly updated until the creation of the Revised Version in 1885. These formal equivalence or literal translations have been continued with further modifications to the King James and Revised Versions, including the Revised Standard Version (1952), the New Revised Standard Version (1989), and the English Standard Version (2001).

Originally Posted by http://www.carm.org/christianity/bible/do-lost-books-bible-prove-bible-has-been-altered

Nevertheless, in spite of these problems the Roman Catholic church has added certain books to the canon of scripture. In 1546, largely due in response to the Reformation, the Roman Catholic church authorized several more books as scripture known as the apocrypha.

Look, the point about the bible having been altered is something I want to
address, but it goes off the topic of this particular thread. Additionally, there
are other members here that I would trust more with the matter of bible
alteration than I could hope to speak of myself.

Originally Posted by Noogah

No, I said he wants peace for humanity, and destruction for Christians. And either way, he has accomplished destruction no matter his goals.

Satan does NOT want peace. Satan gives the illusion of the desire for peace to trick creation. His real desire is domination. He is the father of all lies. When he wins everyone over they are in for a nasty surprise. HELL. Think of your worst nightmare and that will be your hell. Of course, according to the Holy Book of Fairy Tales, God wins in the end. I learned this when I was a "faithful christian".

Young preacher, study history, study science, better yet go to church and actually listen. Write down all of the times you hear "the word" and say to yourself, "huh?" What they say in church does not match up with the truth. Take your bible out whenever there is an impending church split and ask the elders to actually follow the word. You will see.

Originally Posted by Bonsay

It's funny that you'd say that, because I've seen a "TheAtheistExperience" video on Youtube, where they had a Christian there. They were arguing about morality and it got to your question. "Would you kill your children if God told you to do it", the guy instantly said yes. So much for morality, right? It's not always like this though. I've often seen "them" respond by arguing that God wouldn't ask you to do this because his is good etc. I'm not going to act as if I can answer that question for them though.

God has asked Abraham to kill his son which Abraham accepted to do.

God then told Abraham that he had only asked that to test Abraham's answer but that he didn't actually want him to kill his son. But that doesn't change anything. Abraham still didn't have enough morals to no better than kill his own son. This also means that God could easily ask anyone to kill people they love and if God did not stop them in time, this could end in murder.

It is like playing with fire. You play with it and then, by mistake, you start a fire. God might not be playing with fire, but he is playing with Death. This is immoral. And I have more authority then a fairy tale character to say what's moral and what's not.

Originally Posted by Noogah

It's been seven thousand years. He hasn't shown his ability to produce much peace yet, has he?

Jesus also had his turn and failed.
God did create perfection but it seems that he is easy to give up. He created something perfect. Someone came and made it unperfect very easily, meaning that it wasn't so perfect if it was easy to destroy, and God destroyed it even more out of anger rather than building it up again.

Originally Posted by SleepyCookieDough

Jesus also had his turn and failed.

You mean besides pathing the way for all humanity to gain teh Holy Spirit,a nd a place with him in Heaven?

He created something perfect. Someone came and made it unperfect very easily

He made thew world perfect.

He gave us a choice. We were not to eat of the forbidden fruit.

We did anyways.

We caused our own fate.

He came and made a new way.

Originally Posted by Noogah

You mean besides pathing the way for all humanity to gain teh Holy Spirit,a nd a place with him in Heaven?

That is not the definition of perfect like you said. You said only Jesus could make the world perfect again and that perfect would be the total elimination of negative thoughts, feelings and actions. However, when Jesus came, he did not achieve that.

Originally Posted by Noogah

He made thew world perfect.

He gave us a choice. We were not to eat of the forbidden fruit.

We did anyways.

We caused our own fate.

He came and made a new way. He kicked us out and doomed us. He then regreted his actions and came to make a new way

I corrected your last sentence.

Anyways,
Why would God over react about us not listening to him for the first time. When I did not listen to my parents the first time, they did not kick me out of the house. They told me not to do it again and they explained me why it was wrong and I did it again and they told me again and made me go in the little cornor for a time out for me to think about what I did and then after these parental actions, I've finally stopped doing it because they taught me to. I'm happy God was not my dad. I find much more strenght and patience in my parents than in GOd.

Originally Posted by Noogah

In fact, this is not so. Humankind is not what Satan wishes to destroy. In fact, he wants world peace. He wants cooperation with nations, and rest among people. He is not opposed to morals, or humanism. Not at all. In fact, he fully supports these things.

...

Satan is just as evil and disgusting as he ever was. His methods are wrong, and nothing can be right without the perfect ways of God.

I hope you realize that these are contradictory statements. Unless you are saying that doing that while doing the right thing in the name of god is right by doing the right thing just because it's the right thing to do is horribly wrong...seems a little odd to me.

"No evil has entered the world by God's hand."

What about Satan? God created everything that exists. Satan is an aspect of god.

Originally Posted by Xaqaria

"No evil has entered the world by God's hand."

What about Satan? God created everything that exists. Satan is an aspect of god.

You did ot respond to my reply. Yes, I probably sound like I'm completly against all of it but I've very curious and I want to know these things.

1.Why did God need to commit suicide to give us another chance?
2.Why did God ban humans rather than do what parents do to educated their children? You said it wasn't his choice? How come did he not have a choice? Why was God powerless? I thought God could do anything he wanted.

Originally Posted by SleepyCookieDough

You did ot respond to my reply. Yes, I probably sound like I'm completly against all of it but I've very curious and I want to know these things.

1.Why did God need to commit suicide to give us another chance?
2.Why did God ban humans rather than do what parents do to educated their children? You said it wasn't his choice? How come did he not have a choice? Why was God powerless? I thought God could do anything he wanted.

Huh? Do you realize that the post you quoted was the first I made in this thread? I have no idea what your post is about.

I think Noogah did a pretty good job of describing the nature of Lucifer or Satan. I more or less agree with it.

Originally Posted by Xaqaria

Huh? Do you realize that the post you quoted was the first I made in this thread? I have no idea what your post is about.

Aha!

Wrong person! I thought I had been arguing with you for some reason! XD
I was actually talking to Noogah. Sorry

This thread is making me love Satan. Religion should be about drugs, music, and human connectivity. In other words religion should be a form through which culture can manifest rather than a group that uses fear to control people.