Thread: The Nature of Satan

Originally Posted by Bonsay

It's funny that you'd say that, because I've seen a "TheAtheistExperience" video on Youtube, where they had a Christian there. They were arguing about morality and it got to your question. "Would you kill your children if God told you to do it", the guy instantly said yes. So much for morality, right? It's not always like this though. I've often seen "them" respond by arguing that God wouldn't ask you to do this because his is good etc. I'm not going to act as if I can answer that question for them though.

God has asked Abraham to kill his son which Abraham accepted to do.

God then told Abraham that he had only asked that to test Abraham's answer but that he didn't actually want him to kill his son. But that doesn't change anything. Abraham still didn't have enough morals to no better than kill his own son. This also means that God could easily ask anyone to kill people they love and if God did not stop them in time, this could end in murder.

It is like playing with fire. You play with it and then, by mistake, you start a fire. God might not be playing with fire, but he is playing with Death. This is immoral. And I have more authority then a fairy tale character to say what's moral and what's not.

Originally Posted by Noogah

It's been seven thousand years. He hasn't shown his ability to produce much peace yet, has he?

Jesus also had his turn and failed.
God did create perfection but it seems that he is easy to give up. He created something perfect. Someone came and made it unperfect very easily, meaning that it wasn't so perfect if it was easy to destroy, and God destroyed it even more out of anger rather than building it up again.

Originally Posted by SleepyCookieDough

Jesus also had his turn and failed.

You mean besides pathing the way for all humanity to gain teh Holy Spirit,a nd a place with him in Heaven?

He created something perfect. Someone came and made it unperfect very easily

He made thew world perfect.

He gave us a choice. We were not to eat of the forbidden fruit.

We did anyways.

We caused our own fate.

He came and made a new way.

Originally Posted by Noogah

You mean besides pathing the way for all humanity to gain teh Holy Spirit,a nd a place with him in Heaven?

That is not the definition of perfect like you said. You said only Jesus could make the world perfect again and that perfect would be the total elimination of negative thoughts, feelings and actions. However, when Jesus came, he did not achieve that.

Originally Posted by Noogah

He made thew world perfect.

He gave us a choice. We were not to eat of the forbidden fruit.

We did anyways.

We caused our own fate.

He came and made a new way. He kicked us out and doomed us. He then regreted his actions and came to make a new way

I corrected your last sentence.

Anyways,
Why would God over react about us not listening to him for the first time. When I did not listen to my parents the first time, they did not kick me out of the house. They told me not to do it again and they explained me why it was wrong and I did it again and they told me again and made me go in the little cornor for a time out for me to think about what I did and then after these parental actions, I've finally stopped doing it because they taught me to. I'm happy God was not my dad. I find much more strenght and patience in my parents than in GOd.

However, when Jesus came, he did not achieve that.

No, that wasn't the plan. He left, to later return. He isn't finished yet. His time on earth was to provide a way. His time away from earth is to allow people a chance. When he comes back, he will perfect it.

I corrected your last sentence I discorrected your last sentence

I corrected your last sentence

Fact is, he died in place of us, in turn giving us a chance for spiritual perfection.

Why would God over react about us not listening to him for the first time.

It wasn't his choice. It was an inevitable consequence. From the beginning, picking the fruit would bare that curse. He didn't make it up off the top of his head.

Characteristics of Satan

1. Created by God, and not equal to God (Prov 16:4)

2. Defies God and despises truth (John 8:44)

3. Was given limited power (Job 1:8-12)

4. Was defeated at Calvary (Eph. 1:20-23)

5. Rules the masses outside God’s protection (Eph. 2:1-3)

6. Commands a hierarchy of demons (Eph. 6:10-12)

7. Came to steal, kill and destroy (John 10:10)

8. Masquerades as "an angel of light." (2 Cor. 11:14-15)

9. Tries to hide the actual truth about our God.

10. Twists the meaning of Scriptures to fit his purposes. (Gen. 3:1-5)

11. Offers counterfeit promises he can't fulfill

12. Always seeks an "opportune time" to tempt us (Luke 4:13)

NOT a very "cool" guy.

Then it's a good thing the Bible is most likely a book of fairy tales...that is, unless you have solid evidence to prove otherwise. Ah, but perhaps this is a debate for another thread...

Originally Posted by Noogah

No, that wasn't the plan. He left, to later return. He isn't finished yet. His time on earth was to provide a way. His time away from earth is to allow people a chance. When he comes back, he will perfect it.

I guess you might be right for that but I feel more time he will take to come, less people will believe in him because his existence and message are becoming very old, dusty and forgoten. When you say he is giving people a chance by coming later, he's actually doing the oposite.

Originally Posted by Noogah

I corrected your last sentence

Fact is, he died in place of us, in turn giving us a chance for spiritual perfection.

lol (for your recorrection)

This is the stupidest thing I've ever heard though. Jesus is God, God is Jesus, God is the Holy Spirit, The holy Spirit is God, The Holy Spirit is Jesus, Jesus is the Holy Spirit. They are all the same. But that's just to say that Jesus and God are the same person. God created people who betreyed him. Why would God kill himself to give a chance of spiritual perfection to the people he created. It just doesn't make sense. God does not need to do things like killing himself to forgive his people and give them another chance. Or are you saying God has a major brain damage and needs to commit suicide to give people a second chance?

Originally Posted by Noogah

It wasn't his choice. It was an inevitable consequence. From the beginning, picking the fruit would bare that curse. He didn't make it up off the top of his head.

You're saying the fruit was more powerful than God. God couldn't chose what would happen if they touched the fruit. He was powerless. let me requote what you said:

Originally Posted by Noogah

It wasn't his choice

God once did not have a choice? God does not always have the power to chose and sometimes he is limited to only one action?

Originally Posted by Noogah

He didn't make it up off the top of his head.

God did not create everything. Some random curses just hapened to haunt fruits he had created. God did not create a perfect world. Some of the thing he had created were poisoned with curses.

Originally Posted by Noogah

You can, and for further reference, I will explicitly state it to avoid confusion.

I believe that every book in the Bible is 100% true down to the last detail

I believe every chapter, and I believe every word.

No exceptions.

All literally? None symbolically or figuratively?

Originally Posted by Noogah

Who said God created evil?


Evil exists. Evil is. Evil is not what you want it to be.

There has always been two concepts in the universe. Good, and evil. God has the knowledge of it. He did not write the book of evil. Evil is a concept. Evil is not something that can be manipulated by thought.

You speak as if good and evil somehow precede God?

Originally Posted by Noogah

Is there one command in the new testament that you would consider evil? If it's evil, you'll know it, and don't pretend you wouldn't.

Not in the New Testament, no.

If something is very evil, we will know it certainly, even if we've never read the bible or had any contact with religion. That suggests that in fact moral thought comes from ourselves within rather than an exterior source of God or the Bible doesn't it.

Originally Posted by Noogah

It's evil to kill an innocent man.

Can you answer as to why?

I don't think you could. Not clearly.

Of course I couldn't answer clearly. Do you know why? It's because in the real world, morality is an immensely complex and deep subject one can spend years studying and reading about. It isn't just "Hey it's written in this book which I was brought up to believe unquestioningly so I guess... it must be true?" It's an obscenely complicated field. Moral philosophy has hundreds and hundreds of books and viewpoints written about it and is one of the most debated and major fields there is. So no, I couldn't answer clearly, because morally the world is not a clear place. Your religion simplifies the universe so much that it's absurd. You rely on an outdated model of deontology to guide you through the world.

I know how much you must want, and how tempting it must be, to believe these ideas of morality of yours because they make a profound and ultimately mysterious universe as simple as a kids tv show, so you can arrogantly think you've fitted it all into your head, but please wake up and look at how infinitely more both complex AND beautiful the world is than what your medieval worldview forces it to be. You're living an illusory lie that belittles and demeans the true wonder of existence.


I don't want to waste my time lecturing you on moral principles and the like in order to fully answer your original question because I think ultimately it would be useless, because you seem to have a willful ignorance. But if you genuinely do want to think about it, go and read some real moral philosophy, some Kant, Aristotle, Plato, Sartre, Camus etc etc. But I know you probably won't because you seem happy to live like you do, and that's probably why you do continue to believe, in today's advanced world. For happiness. Which I can understand, at the end of the day.

Originally Posted by Noogah

God would NOT ask us to kill an innocent man, because God is good, not evil.

Again you're talking like good and evil are laws and properties which apply to god, rather than him being the source of them. Maybe this is just your clumsy way of writing and it's not what you believe, but please clarify, because you're implying some very odd things.

Is God not the all powerful source of moral law? And by extension if he is omnipotent can't he will what it be?

Originally Posted by Noogah

You can, and for further reference, I will explicitly state it to avoid confusion.

I believe that every book in the Bible is 100% true down to the last detail

I believe every chapter, and I believe every word.

No exceptions.

Am I the only one that finds this troubling?



For the record, keeping an open mind is incredibly beneficial. It is always a good idea to question your beliefs.

I actually agree with Noogah to a point. Twerpling McYounglins actually makes a good argument that I would agree with were I religious, again to a point.

Reserving this space to back up the little Devil's Advocate.

But Noogah, why do you believe the books of the bible just because they happen to be in the bible? What about all the books that were excluded because some people thought they were 'unholy'?

And if you believe every word of it then that also means you believe that Noah brought whales onto the ark (every creature with nostrils). I mean, you obviously already knew you believed this, so I was wondering... how do you think Noah managed to snatch them up?

I suppose that Mark 16:9-20 is ALSO true then. Even though it's been proven that it was added in much later. Well, it's in the bible, so who are you going to believe? Evidence, or the bible?

Originally Posted by Noogah

Oh? Is there a scripture that states so? Do show it to me.

I was saying that none of the scriptures YOU quoted had anything to do with Satan. You are the one making the claims so all the burden of proof is on yourself.

Have I got a scripture that says Lucifer is not Satan? NO.
Have YOU got a scripture saying that Lucifer IS Satan? NO!

On the other hand, if you check a Hebrew manuscript of Isaiah you will see that Lucifer is not mentioned. And if I am wrong, and you really do have proof that he is, then you still are unable to prove that Lucifer is Satan. But you can prove who he is! Right at the beginning of chapter 14 in Isaiah it mentions that this is a proclaimation against the King of Babylon. Exactly the same chapter mentions a number of other nations such as Phonecia and (if I remember correctly) Syria. So, if the King of Babylon is symbolic of Satan as you might claim wittingly or not, then what are all of these other nations symbolic of? No one would have written a metaphorical and literal prophecy in the same chapter, so either it's one or the other. Since so many nations are mentioned it seems so obvious it is a literal prophecy about a literal king.

Originally Posted by Noogah

I believe that every book in the Bible is 100% true down to the last detail

I believe every chapter, and I believe every word.

No exceptions.

At least we can all live in the comfort of knowing that God certainly IS NOT a paedophile:


Genesis 22:2: And [the Lord] said, "Take now thy son, thine only son Isaac, whom thou lovest, and get thee into the land of Moriah; and offer him there for a burnt offering upon one of the mountains which I will tell thee of."

Exodus 11:4-5: And Moses said, "Thus saith the LORD, 'About midnight will I go out into the midst of Egypt, and all the firstborn in the land of Egypt shall die....'" (other verses pertain to this slaughter as well)

Numbers 16:27-32: ... And Dathan and Abiram came out, and stood in the door of their tents, and their wives, and their sons, and their little children. And Moses said, "Hereby ye shall know that the LORD hath sent me to do all these works...." And it came to pass, as he had made an end of speaking all these words, that the ground clave asunder that was under them, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed them up, and their houses, and all the men that appertained unto Korah, and all their goods.

Numbers 31:15-18: And Moses said unto them, "Have ye saved all the women alive? ... Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him. But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves."

Deut. 2:34: And we took all his cities at that time, and utterly destroyed the men, and the women, and the little ones, of every city, we left none to remain....

Deut. 3:6: And we utterly destroyed them, as we did unto Sihon king of Heshbon, utterly destroying the men, women, and children, of every city.

Joshua 6:21, 8:26, 10:28-40, among many others: Joshua slays the entire populations of cities upon the Lord's command.

1 Sam. 15:3: [The Lord said,] "Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass." Side note: This command was given by the Lord to Saul, and the Lord was angry because Saul disobeyed it. Saul killed all the women and children and babies and all of the men, except one, the king. Saul also spared some of the best animals temporarily, intending to kill them later as sacrifices. The prophet Samuel set out to fix things by taking the Amalekite king, who was unarmed and presenting no resistance, and hacking him to pieces with a sword.

2 Kings 2:23-24: And he [Elisha] went up from thence unto Bethel: and as he was going up by the way, there came forth little children out of the city, and mocked him, and said unto him, "Go up, thou bald head; go up, thou bald head." And he turned back, and looked on them, and cursed them in the name of the LORD. And there came forth two she bears out of the wood, and tare forty and two children of them.

Psalms 137:9: Happy shall he be, that taketh and dasheth thy little ones against the stones.

As the evidence indicates I suppose he tends to lean to the more domineering egomaniacal side if the child batterer. Your hypothesis could make for an interesting theological science, Noogah!

Originally Posted by Noogah

I believe that every book in the Bible is 100% true down to the last detail

I believe every chapter, and I believe every word.

No exceptions.

"No evil has entered the world by God's hand."

What about Satan? God created everything that exists. Satan is an aspect of god.

Originally Posted by Xaqaria

"No evil has entered the world by God's hand."

What about Satan? God created everything that exists. Satan is an aspect of god.

You did ot respond to my reply. Yes, I probably sound like I'm completly against all of it but I've very curious and I want to know these things.

1.Why did God need to commit suicide to give us another chance?
2.Why did God ban humans rather than do what parents do to educated their children? You said it wasn't his choice? How come did he not have a choice? Why was God powerless? I thought God could do anything he wanted.

Originally Posted by SleepyCookieDough

You did ot respond to my reply. Yes, I probably sound like I'm completly against all of it but I've very curious and I want to know these things.

1.Why did God need to commit suicide to give us another chance?
2.Why did God ban humans rather than do what parents do to educated their children? You said it wasn't his choice? How come did he not have a choice? Why was God powerless? I thought God could do anything he wanted.

Huh? Do you realize that the post you quoted was the first I made in this thread? I have no idea what your post is about.

I think Noogah did a pretty good job of describing the nature of Lucifer or Satan. I more or less agree with it.

Originally Posted by Xaqaria

Huh? Do you realize that the post you quoted was the first I made in this thread? I have no idea what your post is about.

Aha!

Wrong person! I thought I had been arguing with you for some reason! XD
I was actually talking to Noogah. Sorry

This thread is making me love Satan. Religion should be about drugs, music, and human connectivity. In other words religion should be a form through which culture can manifest rather than a group that uses fear to control people.

Originally Posted by stonedape

This thread is making me love Satan. Religion should be about drugs, music, and human connectivity. In other words religion should be a form through which culture can manifest rather than a group that uses fear to control people.

+1. Hedonism, ftw.

In fact, this is not so. Humankind is not what Satan wishes to destroy. In fact, he wants world peace. He wants cooperation with nations, and rest among people. He is not opposed to morals, or humanism. Not at all. In fact, he fully supports these things.

Firstly how is someone who wants world peace evil?

Secondly, doesn't this list contradict what you are saying about supporting morals and humanism?

Characteristics of Satan

7. Came to steal, kill and destroy (John 10:10)

8. Masquerades as "an angel of light." (2 Cor. 11:14-15)

9. Tries to hide the actual truth about our God.

10. Twists the meaning of Scriptures to fit his purposes. (Gen. 3:1-5)

11. Offers counterfeit promises he can't fulfill

12. Always seeks an "opportune time" to tempt us (Luke 4:13)

First you say he wants people to be happy, he wants world peace. Then you say he wants to steal, kill and destroy.

You also claim he is not against morals, yet he has no problem with lying, killing or stealing.

How exactly do you believe 2 opposing things at the same time?

Originally Posted by stonedape

Firstly how is someone who wants world peace evil?

Secondly, doesn't this list contradict what you are saying about supporting morals and humanism?


First you say he wants people to be happy, he wants world peace. Then you say he wants to steal, kill and destroy.

You also claim he is not against morals, yet he has no problem with lying, killing or stealing.

How exactly do you believe 2 opposing things at the same time?

Dude, I'm pretty sure Noogah has left this thread for good now..

hopefully he's doing some serious thinking.

Originally Posted by Idolfan

And if you believe every word of it then that also means you believe that Noah brought whales onto the ark (every creature with nostrils). I mean, you obviously already knew you believed this, so I was wondering... how do you think Noah managed to snatch them up?

I saw a special on natgeo (I think?) on Noah's ark, they made it clear it would not have been possible for a boat such as described in the bible to have been built at the time it was supposed to have been...and also could not have withstood the storm/flood described in the bible.

Originally Posted by nerve

I saw a special on natgeo (I think?) on Noah's ark, they made it clear it would not have been possible for a boat such as described in the bible to have been built at the time it was supposed to have been...and also could not have withstood the storm/flood described in the bible.

Let alone that no flood of the entire world ever happened, and lol: two blue whales sitting on a boat uh

I dunno, I thought there was actually a big flood, maybe not the ENTIRE EARTH but...

I know several other ancient cultures have great flood myths, like the only example I can think of is the one in Gilgamesh by the Sumerians. I'm not saying that's proof or anything, just thought it was worth mentioning.

I haven't studied this extensively or anything (because I don't care and have no reason to), but I have heard that there is proof of an epic flood. of course, I grew up (and still live) in a baptist christian family, so I'm surrounded by idiots people who jump on any supposed "proof" that they stumble upon. tell me (and feel free) am I completely retarded for thinking it is even a possibility? I mean, were all these ancient cultures really just making up stories, or is there some truth to it?

oh, and why would Noah need to put whales in the ark when they live in water and the earth was supposed to be covered in...water

Originally Posted by nerve

I dunno, I thought there was actually a big flood, maybe not the ENTIRE EARTH but...

I know several other ancient cultures have great flood myths, like the only example I can think of is the one in Gilgamesh by the Sumerians. I'm not saying that's proof or anything, just thought it was worth mentioning.

I haven't studied this extensively or anything (because I don't care and have no reason to), but I have heard that there is proof of an epic flood. of course, I grew up (and still live) in a baptist christian family, so I'm surrounded by idiots people who jump on any supposed "proof" that they stumble upon. tell me (and feel free) am I completely retarded for thinking it is even a possibility? I mean, were all these ancient cultures really just making up stories, or is there some truth to it?

There were a few large floods in the middle east

OF course everyone at the time thought that middle east=world.

They appear in religions of the same area.

It's expected that the flood stories are based on a few notably large floods in the area.

Hardly worldwide all animals died stuff, but then again the writers of the Bible are a little bit guilty of sensationalism, exaggeration and dick waving of God quite alot.