Thread: Why God Exists.

^really? (see what I did there? )

How do people think of what is good without a concept of God? For some people, thoughts of God are like a compass. Thoughts of God hold everything that is good. However, it isn't just thinking about what is good, but also what is possible - about all the inhabitants of this world, this planet, its past and future, and the meaning of life. That is, it is wholistic and value laden thinking, that is something science lacks. Science is amoral, and often very narrowly focused. (please, don't confuse amoral with immoral, or science with scientist).

God doesn't exist due to the fact that we really don't have any evidence either way. Agnostic ftw!

Originally Posted by carôusoul

now. To try hopefully and get the ball rolling i'm going to start off.

You may know that i am quite skeptical, and do not believe in any kind of spiritualism or god. So i'm going to present as best i can, a case for the existence of god.

And what i'd like is for someone who believes in god, to respond to this and argue against me. From there i hope more people will get involved.


ok.


So, why should we believe in god? Well firstly i'd say that i can't prove god here, but what i can do is present to you the idea that the existence of some kind of god is the best possible explanation we have for the existence of life, and many other factors of the universe.

Life, is a miracle. Really considering the probabilities, it is absurdly unlikely for life to form, seemingly of it's own accord, on a planet in totally unhospitable conditions. This isn't even to mention that scientists still don't really understand fully what exactly causes the spark of life so to speak. So the obvious question we're left with is just why, and how? Howcome the temperature of the earth isn't just a few degrees different, meaning there could have never been life? Why is it that earth is the perfect condition to gestate life, and intelligent life that can flourish like we do? The odds are astronomically stacked against us.

This suggests there has to be something else at work.

Now this alone i'll admit is a far cry from convincing anyone of a god, but that's not all. There is no one single argument or point to show us that god exists, rather if we look at all of the evidence and put it together, it is likely.

The big bang is one of the biggest mysteries we know of. Every event has a cause, so we assume, but for some reason the universe, and life "just happened". There must have been some kind of propelling force, something to set the whole thing off. Now we have no way of knowing what that was, but given that it perfectly all resulted in the fruition of intelligent life on a near perfect planet for us, is at least interesting, and it does suggest a form of design.

Looking at the way things work in the universe, they work like a machine. Like clockwork. Every single thing we can look at in the universe works perfectly for it's purpose and works just like a machine. Think about the solar system. All the planets perfectly circling the sun in such a way that they all sustain each other? Is this the result of some random explosion? Do explosions result in perfectly harmonic systems designed for life? No. They don't.



Taking even a step back to look at the universe we see that it operates under a set of guidelines. the universe has clear rules. these can be called natural laws, gravity, forces, motion. We are living in a machine, where everything is governed by rules. Where do these rules come from? Why when let go of an apple, will it always fall to the ground? Why not one day float upwards and off. Because of gravity, you might say, but why does gravity have to be there? What makes that happen so perfectly? This goes on forever, everything seems to be made to "just work" by some cause behind it.

Nothing can come from nothing. So there must have been at some stage some, thing to push all these laws into effect and sustain them.

Science may study the laws, but really, it is theology that studies the source.



Even in ourselves, dna, the substance that programs who and what we are, down to the detail, is a code. Just like a computer program. Again i've got to ask you, do these things come just from an explosion? Do perfect codes supported by perfect ecosystems supported by perfectly in balance gravitational forces really "just happen"?



Now, nothing i've said proves that the god we all might recognise exists. But what it does show, at least, is that there has to be some kind of source to everything. which is beyond the laws of science, because it is the creator, the source of them.


Science has no answer, to what that source might be.

What is this root of the collective consciousness and balanced universe we live in?

We don't have an answer. But the best answer we do have is something that looks alot like ideas of a "god" throughout the ages.

So, what else can we go by?

finally someone who knows what their takling about!!

Originally Posted by 420Dreamer

finally someone who knows what their takling about!!

Well, you know, except that last bit there where "we don't know" is a logical bridge to "god exists." At one point, we didn't know what caused lightning, and used that to bridge dozens of gods into existence. Zeus, Thor, Yahweh, etc all used to be responsible for lightning. Then we discovered some neat stuff and suddenly they didn't create lightning. God can best be described as a placeholder for unknown phenomena in the case of the natural world, and as a source of hope or unity in the personal lives of people.

...and I think that's all the debate I've got left in me. Good game, everyone. Good game.

Whatever works for you, Mario. Oh by the way there are people who claim to "know" (not mentioning any names, that would be too obvious). It probably makes no difference to you though.

Originally Posted by 420Dreamer

finally someone who knows what their takling about!!

The funniest thing about this is - Caru was arguing for the OPPOSITE side - the side (s)he DOESN'T really believe in!! I suspect 420Dreamer is well aware of this though, and is not at all what he seems.

Originally Posted by really

Whatever works for you, Mario. Oh by the way there are people who claim to "know" (not mentioning any names, that would be too obvious). It probably makes no difference to you though.

Yeah, strong atheism works perfectly to debunk the ridiculous trappings of Christianity - especially fudamentalist beliefs - but it doesn't begin to touch the real core values at the heart of the bible.

Originally Posted by Rainman

You've also proven that you find following a simple direction difficult. Follow the theme of the thread, or don't post.



Did I miss something? If you aren't going to participate, cool. Keep it to yourself, we don't need an announcement on why you're not participating. We get it. You want attention. Do it elsewhere. Some of us actually want to see where this goes. If you can't follow the guidelines of the OP, then DON'T POST. For the love of... god....

Good to see.

Originally Posted by 420dreamer

finally someone who knows what their takling about!!

ia! Ia! Cthulu ftaghn!

awnser to post 1.

All I read here is, [how can it?---->I don't understand----->therefore God]

Life, is a miracle. Really considering the probabilities, it is absurdly unlikely for life to form, seemingly of it's own accord, on a planet in totally unhospitable conditions.

Really it's not (talking about probabilities), look at the hugeness of space, the number of suns, of planets. thousands of world with similar conditions must exist.

This isn't even to mention that scientists still don't really understand fully what exactly causes the spark of life so to speak. So the obvious question we're left with is just why, and how?

So since science is not able to understand yet how it happened, after 100 years let just say it's god otherwise we would have understood a long time ago....

howcome the temperature of the earth isn't just a few degrees different, meaning there could have never been life? Why is it that earth is the perfect condition to gestate life, and intelligent life that can flourish like we do? The odds are astronomically stacked against us.

Again, due to the hugeness of space, I don't see why getting those condition is weird.

Futhermore, our species adapted to those condition, nothing tells us that an other sentient race could not have adapted to other conditions.

This suggests there has to be something else at work.

This suggests nothing, it just show that you don't know.

Now this alone I'll admit is a far cry from convincing anyone of a God, but that's not all. There is no one single argument or point to show us that God exists, rather if we look at all of the evidence and put it together, it is likely.

What evidences?

The big bang is one of the biggest mysteries we know of. Every event has a cause, so we assume, but for some reason the universe, and life "just happened". There must have been some kind of propelling force, something to set the whole thing off. Now we have no way of knowing what that was, but given that it perfectly all resulted in the fruition of intelligent life on a near perfect planet for us, is at least interesting, and it does suggest a form of design.

Common misconception, "the big bang created the universe"
Big bang theory : 13.x Billion years ago the actual universe was condensed into a singularity, an unknown event made it expand.

nothing more, nothing less, it doesn't talk about before.

Looking at the way things work in the universe, they work like a machine. Like clockwork. Every single thing we can look at in the universe works perfectly for it's purpose and works just like a machine. Think about the solar system. All the planets perfectly circling the sun in such a way that they all sustain each other? Is this the result of some random explosion? Do explosions result in perfectly harmonic systems designed for life? No. They don't.

Well actually, they do.
Proof is : solar systems.

What I means here is that you are openly rejecting what you are observing in order to sustain your belief.

solar systems result from that explosion because the gas cloud starts spinning as it collapses.
You can lean this in college if you take physics.

Taking even a step back to look at the universe we see that it operates under a set of guidelines. The universe has clear rules. These can be called natural laws, gravity, forces, motion. We are living in a machine, where everything is governed by rules. Where do these rules come from? Why when let go of an apple, will it always fall to the ground? Why not one day float upwards and off. Because of gravity, you might say, but why does gravity have to be there? What makes that happen so perfectly? This goes on forever, everything seems to be made to "just work" by some cause behind it.

well if it didn't worked, we wouldn't be here to ask this question wouldn't we.

Nothing can come from nothing. So there must have been at some stage some, thing to push all these laws into effect and sustain them.

Science may study the laws, but really, it is theology that studies the source.

Introducing a God entity in the equation does not explain how things came to be.

Even in ourselves, DNA, the substance that programs who and what we are, down to the detail, is a code. Just like a computer program. Again I've got to ask you, do these things come just from an explosion? Do perfect codes supported by perfect ecosystems supported by perfectly in balance gravitational forces really "just happen"?

lookup XNA, scientist have made an other DNA-like life code support, proving that really other things could have happened.

[I cannot post links]

Now, nothing I've said proves that the God we all might recognise exists. But what it does show, at least, is that there has to be some kind of source to everything. which is beyond the laws of science, because it is the creator, the source of them.

No it does not, it just proove that like a lot of us, you don't understand a lot of things (I never said I did)

Science has no answer, to what that source might be.

yet.

We don't have an answer. But the best answer we do have is something that looks alot like ideas of a "God" throughout the ages.

For me an awnser require verifiable proof, this is just a speculation.

I'm only up to post #17. This post:

Originally Posted by Photolysis

I have to say I find these kinds of threads useful in that they show some people's ignorance of the opposing viewpoint quite nicely.

Ineresting thread Carousoul

Since my "insect" dream snipet, this morning, I am wanting to know you more. So I'm slowly getting through your threads.

I was diagnosed as having multiple personalities in 2001 (age 41).

When I was 15 I would get into deep discussions with spiritial hippies in tropical Cairns and in the Mountains of Kuranda (Aboriginal meaning: Meeting Place of the Spirits).

Apparently I would convince folk of something then say "I don't really believe that, I'm just explaining why others do".

Mum told me that I did that a lot. Sometimes I forgot to say that I didn't believe what I just argued for and they would go to mum almost ... converted ... to what I argued for ... and mum wpuld tell them that I don't believe any of it and that I just argue (convincingly) for many sides.

Well

Now I understand what was happening. Different parts of "me" had totally different "belief systems"

Bosnak says everyone is a collection of "discociative selfs" not just me.

Being a person with a strong case of lifelong Discociative Disorder I have juggled opposing belief systems all my life. As time marched on my poor brain had to find some jelling-substance so I would stay sane. Hence my strange belief system that embraces TOTAL athieism and TOTAL theism and TOTAL monothiesm.

My main THRUST is to demonstrate the .... mmm .... Fact of it.

It is sooo dificult for me because I deeply believe in it all. As in, everything you say is (to me) TRUE.

God doesn't exist because there is no sign of God. Unless you consider this Universe a sign of God, but I don't know why. This universe runs itself by cause and effect and random forms of novelty is what is behind evolution. Stars create elements. All this is apparent. Some people might think God exists because they feel that their consciousness is immortal. Ha! Wishful thinking! Even if you did have a soul, how does that prove God? But you don't have a soul, it is called brain activity. Get your frontal lobe of your brain removed and then show me your soul. Some people say that God is just a 'higher power' or a 'field of energy' or something. OK, show me where? It is just imagination. It is a thought that you are thinking. God doesn't exist because freewill is an illusion. I can prove it. Do you know what your next thought is going to be? Even if you meditate and have some transcendental spiritual experience, it is just a thought that you have cultivated and put your faith in.

God does exist because there is no self. The illusion of a self is a brain phenomena for survival. Our whole personality, our whole sense of self, identity, individuality, ego, etc. is simply an optical illusion of consciousness. Everything we experience is a holographic image created by our brain of what it thinks is out there based on raw data sensory input. Everything you have ever experienced has been inside your brain. So... if this WHOLE experience is inner, then why is the experience itself divided into inner/outer? This division of duality is an illusion. There is no inner/outer duality in our experience, really. It is an ignorant perception to have a sense of self. Freewill is an illusion, I can prove it to you. Without the self, what is left? The whole experience of the universe living this life. This is the experience of God, the Universe Living This life. Since there is no self, there is just the Universe. The Universe comes and goes. It began one day and one day it will end. What does it come and go in? What is the screen or the stage or the space in which it comes and goes in?

So as you can see I neither believe in God or disbelieve in God, so I don't know how to take the opposite view. They both are complimentary for me. In fact both views are empty of any inherent reality. To attach to one view over another as the 'correct' one automatically blinds you instantly to the reality of what really is.

But Dannon..... God is your only real friend!

Originally Posted by MrBlonde

God doesn't exist due to the fact that we really don't have any evidence either way. Agnostic ftw!

Agnosticism is a pansy way out of critical thinking, BOO!

Originally Posted by NickCamp

Agnosticism is a pansy way out of critical thinking, BOO!

Agnosticism comes from critical thinking.

Originally Posted by NickCamp

Agnosticism is a pansy way out of critical thinking, BOO!

Agnosticism is the only reasonable position to take with issues like these.

Actually, agnostic theism isn't reasonable at all (it effectively says "I believe in X, but I have no fucking clue what it is or what it does, or even if it's real").

Originally Posted by Woodstock

Agnosticism comes from critical thinking.

Lol critical thinking? I didn't realise, "I don't know" comes from critical thinking. I need to work on that response more to boost my intelligence. Please lmao

No, it actually makes a huge amount of sense and is critical thinking. If we look at it from pure research and science, then we must conclude, no answer can be definitively reached, thus judgement must be suspended until further data is available.

No good scientist will state something does not exist, if no method of disproving the theory is available. If the problem was straight forward, such as "My therory is that ducks do not need air to breath" well we can easily conduct an experiment to disprove it.

There is no method to disprove esoteric questions, so rational thinking leads to agnostic views.

Theoists can belive what they choose because it is the nature of religion. If you are claiming atheists views, then you are engaged in religion. WHAT? You are engaged in religious faith, simply to to anti-thesis.

If you support a world of science, and you understand how scientific enquiry works,,, the agnostic belief is the direct result of critical thinking.

Not trying to be mean. I am a scientist and believe in all sorts of esoteric stuff. I accept my belief to be in the realm of 'religion' but so is atheism. I really would be a poor example of an agnostic, but if we are breaking it down, then yes, critical thinking only leads to agnosticism.

Originally Posted by NickCamp

Lol critical thinking? I didn't realise, "I don't know" comes from critical thinking. I need to work on that response more to boost my intelligence. Please lmao

1) Are you an atheist or theist?

2) Do you know if god(s) exist or if they do not?

Yep. We can say for a fact that we can't see any need for a god to exist - the physical laws of the universe seem to be quite capable of explaining everything, including everything the various religions made attempts to explain long ago when we were extremely superstitious and didn't understand much.

But it can't say for a fact that no god exists.

Therefore you're left with "I see no reason why a god would exist, but I can't prove there isn't one or perhaps thousands of them".

By its very definition, the supernatural is impossible to either prove or disprove. Can you counter this intelligently NickCamp? And please, not just a string of Lols and contempt.

Originally Posted by Woodstock

Agnosticism comes from critical thinking.

Originally Posted by sivason

No, it actually makes a huge amount of sense and is critical thinking. If we look at it from pure research and science, then we must conclude, no answer can be definitively reached, thus judgement must be suspended until further data is available.

No good scientist will state something does not exist, if no method of disproving the theory is available. If the problem was straight forward, such as "My therory is that ducks do not need air to breath" well we can easily conduct an experiment to disprove it.

There is no method to disprove esoteric questions, so rational thinking leads to agnostic views.

Theoists can belive what they choose because it is the nature of religion. If you are claiming atheists views, then you are engaged in religion. WHAT? You are engaged in religious faith, simply to to anti-thesis.

If you support a world of science, and you understand how scientific enquiry works,,, the agnostic belief is the direct result of critical thinking.

Not trying to be mean. I am a scientist and believe in all sorts of esoteric stuff. I accept my belief to be in the realm of 'religion' but so is atheism. I really would be a poor example of an agnostic, but if we are breaking it down, then yes, critical thinking only leads to agnosticism.

While I have little to say on the subject being that this is an endless debate, I'm not a theist, I'm a believer for starters, there is a difference. Theists seem to take everything directly, most not assuming context, time, structure and paralleling science.

Atheism is illogical, claiming that you KNOW God doesn't exsist implies that you have abundant knowledge of everything.

Agnosticism is simply dropping out because you follow laws of science which cannot prove something that cannot be observed while you could use several forms of science to push forward.

What I believe now (I used to be Atheist then Agnostic) is based off of classical logic (such as moral law, fine tuning, science of deduction), critical thinking, science from personal experience (observing nature and occurring events) so from my perspective and events I can say 100% God exists.

Agnosticism is a device that allows you to stop looking past what other human beings tell you.

I wasn't converted by human beings, but by experience and critical thinking. Taking several courses in multiple religions, deducting away, calculating events, plausibility. That's what a scientist does, they don't just stop at "I don't know". Then again, I digress and give you whole hearted respect because I have had the chance to experience things that proved my logic, while I'm not sure if everyone gets such an opprtunity.

If you're curious or wanting to chat I'd be happy to discuss it further in private messaging but I'm done with this section of the threads. I'm out numbered on this website and being in a corner isn't very fun.

Nick (sent from iPhone)

Originally Posted by Woodstock

Agnosticism comes from critical thinking.

Originally Posted by Darkmatters

Yep. We can say for a fact that we can't see any need for a god to exist - the physical laws of the universe seem to be quite capable of explaining everything, including everything the various religions made attempts to explain long ago when we were extremely superstitious and didn't understand much.

But it can't say for a fact that no god exists.

Therefore you're left with "I see no reason why a god would exist, but I can't prove there isn't one or perhaps thousands of them".

By its very definition, the supernatural is impossible to either prove or disprove. Can you counter this intelligently NickCamp? And please, not just a string of Lols and contempt.

Laws of the universe? You realize that as we push further into space the laws are becoming more obscure; dark matter, multiverse theory, string theory. You cannot say the laws of the universe are defined nor can you use them in an argument just because of common scientific SPECULATION.

Please refrain from stepping on a pedistool.

As for supernatural, I'm not sure what events you are referring too, but as I said, my discussion will only be carried out in PMs from here on out

Originally Posted by NickCamp

Atheism is illogical, claiming that you KNOW God doesn't exsist implies that you have abundant knowledge of everything.

Actually that's not what atheism is. Theism is a religious belief, atheism is a lack of religious belief. Though there is what's known as strong atheism, which professes a belief that no gods exist. But in its true form atheism is simply a non-existence of belief in gods, not a positive belief in the non-existence of gods.

I'm an agnostic atheist - I don't believe in any gods, but I acknowledge that we have no way to know for a fact.

Nickcamp, that all sounds very logical. I assume we all took you for rigidly supporting aethism, and were very wrong. I am not agnostic, as stated. I think many pure scientists are forced by logic (faulity or not) to pick agnostic, soo critical scientific reason only points there. What comes into play is personal experience, which serves no end in debate, but is welcome in polite exchange of ideas. You sound logical and I hope you enjoy your day.