Do you believe in a 'Afterlife'?

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Originally Posted by Praise

People should take the time to research it's easy to put the burden on someone else who believes something different. A wise person studies rather than asks for proof all the time. A wise person is humble enough to consider all possibilities. You can use the spaghetti monster to make anything non existent that you want. Not just god, the afterlife, or religion. But also evolution, the big bang, and more could be associated to a spaghetti monster.

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The onus of proof is on the one making the positive claim. It is your belief, ergo, you should research it. I could claim leprechauns exist, but it would be ridiculous to try and make you research this point.

Evolution, the big bang, and the like have loads of well-documented evidence that can be repeated time and again under laboratory conditions. God, the afterlife, and spaghetti monsters do not.

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If evolution is proven where is the sources for that.

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Do you read? Did you take any biology course after the sixth grade? Evidence/proof of evolution is everywhere, and the sheer volume and quality is absolutely staggering. Furthermore, anyone with a very basic high school lab and some fruit flies can see evolution in action.

In short: http://records.viu.ca/~johnstoi/essays/courtenay1.htm
This is, of course, highly simplified, but it hits on the main points, and rest assured, there are mountains of evidence to back it up.

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Saying god is involved is not closed minded. It's introducing faith into the equation and faith is a very good thing to have when answers are not clear.

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Again, did you see the video? By introducing God and faith into the equation, a person is more likely to glob onto this idea rather than consider other ones. It is also a contradiction (please don't make me repeat myself). It gets in the way of true progress. Instead of questioning and researching matters further, people with faith are more likely to say, "God did it, end of story. Next problem."

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How can faith in something good produce anything bad?

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How about that case with the people who tried to deny their son much needed Chemotherapy in exchange for "natural remedies" which didn't work? They had faith in something good, and it backfired.

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The onus of proof is on the one making the positive claim

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Mario, why do I need to prove it to you? I am extremely secure in my beliefs. I see proof for myself in my everyday life. I still don't understand why so many find a need to down religion. do you get a boost in ego by doing it?

Mario92 Leprechauns probably do exist. Why would I want to prove something to someone else. It's up to each one of us to find the truth no-one can force it into you.

How does the existence of an afterlife contradict evolution

A smart person with faith would not abuse their faith. If I concentrated on the dumb person who is atheist they would also abuse it.

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Originally Posted by davej

Mario, why do I need to prove it to you? I am extremely secure in my beliefs. I see proof for myself in my everyday life. I still don't understand why so many find a need to down religion. do you get a boost in ego by doing it?

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Truth. Truth is the ultimate quest of man. It's in our friggin' name, for Christ's sake! Homo Sapiens, "The Wise Human." Sure, you could stick to your beliefs and life a life of relative comfort, but if you are wrong (and there is a strong probability that you are), then you have only aided in the spread of ignorance. Question; it is the only way to higher knowledge.

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Originally Posted by Praise

Mario92 Leprechauns probably do exist. Why would I want to prove something to someone else. It's up to each one of us to find the truth no-one can force it into you.

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Please tell me you're joking...because if you aren't, then there really is no use even attempting to argue with you.

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How does the existence of an afterlife contradict evolution

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Who said it does? You wanted me to show the evidence and sources for it, and I happily obliged. What's wrong with that?

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A smart person with faith would not abuse their faith. If I concentrated on the dumb person who is atheist they would also abuse it.

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Faith: Belief that does not rest on logical proof or material evidence. See Synonyms at belief, trust.
Christianity - The theological virtue defined as secure belief in God and a trusting acceptance of God's will.

Yes, I see no possible way a person who does not need logical proof or evidence to believe in something would have a closed mind or be of hindrance to the quest for higher knowledge.

By contrast...
Atheist: One who disbelieves or denies the existence of God or gods.

An atheist does not have the convenience of trusting everything to the hands of God, and therefore, is far more likely to search for the truth behind an event or phenomenon, rather than taking it at face value. Again consider the video; specifically, the bit with the ghost and the lamp shade. The one with faith immediately leaped to the conclusion of the supernatural, while simultaneously closing his mind to any alternate possibility for the moving lamp shade.

Evolution is both a fact and a theory. You can have faith without Christianity. Faith does not have to hinder the search for truth when you are balanced. Atheists don't have faith in a god. So they cannot experience the benifits of faith in something supernatural. An atheist can make wrong conclusions just as someone who has faith in a god can make wrong conclusions.

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Originally Posted by Praise

Evolution is both a fact and a theory.

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Finally, a common thread!

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You can have faith without Christianity.

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Never said you couldn't.

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Faith does not have to hinder the search for truth when you are balanced.

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But so many people are not.

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Atheists don't have faith in a god. So they cannot experience the benifits of faith in something supernatural.

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You wanna explain that a bit more?

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An atheist can make wrong conclusions just as someone who has faith in a god can make wrong conclusions.

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Yes, but the nonreligious are more likely to keep questioning and keep searching for ultimate truth.

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Truth. Truth is the ultimate quest of man. It's in our friggin' name, for Christ's sake! Homo Sapiens, "The Wise Human." Sure, you could stick to your beliefs and life a life of relative comfort, but if you are wrong (and there is a strong probability that you are), then you have only aided in the spread of ignorance. Question; it is the only way to higher knowledge

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So basically you are saying that those who believe in some sort of religion is ignorant and stupid? just because one believes in A God or gods does not mean that they can't learn and soak up all the information they can. I know many people who are brillant and are extremely religious. being religious does not stop you from understanding the THEORY of evolution or the big bang THEORY or anything else you may learn in school.

So lets just say there is no God and when I die, nothing happens. What have I lost, nothing at all. I lived as a Christian and I enjoyed being a Christian. It didn't do any harm to me so I really lost nothing. Now if you die and CHristianity was real, well then you my friend are screwed.

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Originally Posted by davej

So basically you are saying that those who believe in some sort of religion is ignorant and stupid?

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Who the hell said that? I'm saying to keep an open mind. Believe whatever the hell you want to, but keep in mind that you could be very wrong, as could I, and neither of us should stop questioning.

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just because one believes in A God or gods does not mean that they can't learn and soak up all the information they can. I know many people who are brillant and are extremely religious. being religious does not stop you from understanding the THEORY of evolution or the big bang THEORY or anything else you may learn in school.

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1. Derp. 2. How many times must it be said? A theory in the scientific community is as good as fact. Remember the whole THEORY of gravity? Or would you assume that gravity is pure speculation, and the only thing that keeps us flying into space is the hand of an almighty being?

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So lets just say there is no God and when I die, nothing happens. What have I lost, nothing at all. I lived as a Christian and I enjoyed being a Christian. It didn't do any harm to me so I really lost nothing. Now if you die and CHristianity was real, well then you my friend are screwed.

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I see...so you go to such great lengths to cover your own butt. Interesting. I will gladly accept any punishment, as any god that puts faith before logic and reasoning is not worth worshiping.
EDIT: And by extension of the "what if" scenario, what if you are wrong, and the correct religion is buddhism, but it still involves eternal damnation? What if unicorns are really running the show, and anyone who does not believe is gored to oblivion in the afterlife? It is ridiculous to assume something without strong evidence or proof.

Mario the benifits of faith in something supernatural.

1) Through Prayer, you can have a positive effect on your life
2) Believing in an all loving god brings you endurance through difficult times.
3) Imaging the god you look up to creates character in yourself that is similar and so develops the god character in the individual which then contributes to society.
4)faith in something holy can heal others who do not have the faith that they might need to succeed. So they act as a supporting agent in the life of someone else.

The nonreligious may not have the capacity of devotion that the religious acquire as they work on their faith. What motivates the non religious to look for answers?

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Originally Posted by Praise

Mario the benifits of faith in something supernatural.

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1) Through Prayer, you can have a positive effect on your life

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Some may look to prayer, but it is not the sole means by which someone may achieve a positive effect on their life. It is only one way of literally hundreds.

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2) Believing in an all loving god brings you endurance through difficult times.

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Eh...again, this is a generalization. There are plenty of other ways to find comfort and reduce pain.

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3) Imaging the god you look up to creates character in yourself that is similar and so develops the god character in the individual which then contributes to society.

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This can be true, but not always. Actually, in my experience, the religious tend to be some of the biggest hypocrites in society. This is a generalization, so please do not take offense, but among certain religious sects, it seems that many are quick to condone others, yet turn right around and commit the same or similar "sins." Think Catholicism, here. You confess your sins, and everything is just fine...

Besides that, it has been shown time and again that atheists have just as strong, if not stronger, a moral code than theists. The number of atheists in jail by proportion is also remarkably small. http://www.holysmoke.org/icr-pri.htm

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Atheist.....................0.209%

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Surprising, since an estimated 16% of the American population is nonreligious.

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4)faith in something holy can heal others who do not have the faith that they might need to succeed. So they act as a supporting agent in the life of someone else.

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You may need to explain this one as well. If this is one of those "power of prayer" things, then we have reached an impasse. If you mean that the religious are more likely to show sympathy and help others through their difficult times, I'm going to need some statistics that shows a direct causation between religion and sympathy/empathy.

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The nonreligious may not have the capacity of devotion that the religious acquire as they work on their faith. What motivates the non religious to look for answers?

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Same question can be asked of the religious. A desire to understand would be my answer. It is traditionally within human nature to question and question until a desirable answer is reached. Some reach this answer through religion, but others are not content until a logical and rational explanation devoid of the requirement of faith is reached.

I'm not religious in the slightest but I do believe in an afterlife, not a heaven or hell but kind of a spirit world.

I know that this can't be proved or disproved either way, but I do believe in the supernatural, as I've been to clairvoyants telling me precise things that they couldnt've known without supernatural help, as well as people I trust telling me they've seen spirits. With these experiences, to me it seems very likely that theres an afterlife/spirit world.

Can't know for sure though ;)

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Originally Posted by Praise

Mario the benifits of faith in something supernatural.


3) Imaging the god you look up to creates character in yourself that is similar and so develops the god character in the individual which then contributes to society.
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Guess again:http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/80...ir-own-images/

erhaps unsurprisingly, people tend to project their own opinions onto God, according to a new study (in press) in the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences. But, the researchers say, they also found that when people tweak their own opinions, they tend to also change their idea of God’s beliefs in order to keep the two in line.

So the character they are creating in themselves is just themselves.. not god.

Since this is a lucid dreaming forum, I figured that I'd pose this: have you ever considered that the afterlife may be a dream? I'm not saying that I believe this, but it certainly is interesting to consider.

Dreams, as I understand them, are a manifestation of one's subconscious. Dreams often project inner feelings and emotions present in waking life. Things you've done in the past could "come back to haunt you," so to speak.

This would also be compatible with both Christianity and atheism, as, biologically, God is not required for such a phenomenon to occur but certainly could exist were this the case.

The Christian view that, essentially, moral people have infinite happiness in the afterlife and immoral people have infinite suffering in the afterlife would hold up were this to be the case: any guilt from life would be manifested by the subconscious into some sort of nightmare. Without guilt, one could presume that it would be a rather pleasant dream.

Dreams happen when the mind disconnects from the body, so perhaps this hypothesis isn't too far off. Most likely this is not the case and I doubt that anyone actually believes that the afterlife is a dream, but it certainly creates some interesting discussion.

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This would also be compatible with both Christianity and atheism, as, biologically, God is not required for such a phenomenon to occur but certainly could exist were this the case.

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However it isn't compatible with reality.

No god is required for dreams, but a complicated organ sustained via complex chemical reactions is required. You can't have dreams without the brain, and you can't have the brain without physical matter. You can't have dreams when you're dead because the biological processes responsible have halted, and the pathways in the brain quickly start breaking down.

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Dreams happen when the mind disconnects from the body

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Dreams happen when the brain starts ignoring the sensory input from the outside world and instead starts generating it's own internal sensations based upon our experiences, filling in gaps, and just plain inventing stuff.

"Disconnect" implies the mind seperating from the body, whereas in actuality the mind simply ignores the body (mostly).

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as I've been to clairvoyants telling me precise things that they couldnt've known without supernatural help

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Cold reading and extreme selection bias. The techniques are very well documented, as is the psychology behind it.

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Originally Posted by Praise

The nonreligious may not have the capacity of devotion that the religious acquire as they work on their faith. What motivates the non religious to look for answers?

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As the same question was asked of a professor working with the CERN particle accelerator, I will tell you what his answer, and many others' answers were.

"We are driven to find the answers, because the answers are there to be found"
Almost every answer reflected this one. Religious people are no more and no less driven to find answers. And besides, what have they to look for? Because science just comes up with these cacophony theories of 'evolution' and 'carbon dating' when the bible tells a good Christian that neither of those can possibly be right. So My question to you is what answers are you talking about, because many very plausible scientific theories get shot down based solely on the fact that the bible says different.

Science and religion are symbiotic. Religion tries to explain what science cannot. But when it takes its own claims and spouts them off as scientific fact, they are very far out of line.

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Originally Posted by Photolysis

However it isn't compatible with reality.

No god is required for dreams, but a complicated organ sustained via complex chemical reactions is required. You can't have dreams without the brain, and you can't have the brain without physical matter. You can't have dreams when you're dead because the biological processes responsible have halted, and the pathways in the brain quickly start breaking down.




Dreams happen when the brain starts ignoring the sensory input from the outside world and instead starts generating it's own internal sensations based upon our experiences, filling in gaps, and just plain inventing stuff.

"Disconnect" implies the mind seperating from the body, whereas in actuality the mind simply ignores the body (mostly).

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Thanks for the reply.

You make a very solid argument - there is no evidence to suggest that the mind can function without the brain, but there is still much left that science has yet to discover.

Personally, I don't believe that the afterlife is a dream, but I figured I'd throw it out there and see the responses. This is a dreaming message board, after all, so I thought that perhaps people here have a different perspective on things.

Thank you, GMoney7. You made a statement, you were proven wrong, and you accepted it and learned from it. For this you have earned my respect. I think the overall theme of this thread is represented here, in that this is not only a debate over the existence of an afterlife, but also of how willing people are to learn and admit their mistakes. Good job! :D

:goodjob2:

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Originally Posted by Conkt

Thank you, GMoney7. You made a statement, you were proven wrong, and you accepted it and learned from it. For this you have earned my respect. I think the overall theme of this thread is represented here, in that this is not only a debate over the existence of an afterlife, but also of how willing people are to learn and admit their mistakes. Good job! :D

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Thanks, Conkt!

How can we learn if we don't admit that we're wrong, when need be? I like to keep an open mind and am willing to change my argument if enough solid evidence is presented for the other side.

Many problems could be solved if people would just listen and understand one another...

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faith holding society back in general

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Not true.

Actually, having faith doesn't necessarily mean you believe in a God. Truth be told, you shouldn't place faith in any God. You place faith in YOURSELF. Because you are a part of source. This is what LOA and the secret is about, when you really, truly, DEEP-DOWN place faith in yourself, the universe makes things work for you. This has to be experienced , there is no scientific experiment to prove this. The experience will be your proof.

The truth behind ALL religion is that we ARE god. http://www.iawwai.com/TruthBehindReligion.htm


As for the original post, I do believe in afterlife. You could call me a scientific pantheist that believes in an afterlife. There's too much evidence that points to this. I won't post any evidence, it's really not worth my time. It's your job to get proof if you really want it. Why would I try and prove something to you, that you won't believe?. Counter-productive isn't it?Research it yourself.

But, this thread isn't about evidence anyway.

Back to the OP, I believe that lucid dreams are the afterlife. Your beliefs will shape what you experience. That's why practicing lucidity during waking life is important. If you deep-down believe in Buddha or Jesus or The flying spaghetti monster, or a black void that is what will manifest for you. Why go that route when you can do anything that you want?

I believe above waking life, there are dreams which are essentially an infinite pool of thoughts. A dream-scape. Then above that is the universal consciousness. Completely at one with everything and there are no thoughts at all. Just complete awareness.

Someone said there can't be dreams without a brain..well there are a lot of reported experiences where people have been brain dead ( no brain activity ) for over 30 minutes and have still had sensory perception. But it cannot be proven because it's subjective. So objectively, a scientist only sees brain activity or he doesn't. But again, it's back to belief. Skeptics won't believe that, no matter how much scientific evidence is posted. Fear.

Do you know what would happen if the 6 o'clock news came on and the top story was that God was proven, or that there is an afterlife. I wouldn't even want to be there to see the chaos ensue. This stuff isn't meant to be proven.

As far as humans being small insignificant creatures on a microscopic universe. People need to stop the acting and start being their true-self. Then you'll see the magic happen. You have no idea the potential you really have. But this is an inner-journey and you must take the initiative and do it yourself. No one can convince you, no one can provide you with proof. It's up to you to experience/believe all of this. You have to start by working on yourself. Bring out that inner-peace, that childhood happiness. It's sad as hell looking at everyone being a smiling depressive.

Skeptics have it backwards, we aren't afraid of death..that's the whole point. You are afraid of LIFE.

You say you believe that we're just erased from existence when we die. But people show their true identity during their last moments of life. And most people are full of fear.

DO NOT wait until your last moments of life to be your true self. Be your true self, now, and every day. Bring out that inner-child, the real you, while at the same time use the adult logical mind. Shit seriously starts to happen.


Damn, I think I went off on a rant.

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Originally Posted by HaRd_WiReD

Actually, having faith doesn't necessarily mean you believe in a God. Truth be told, you shouldn't place faith in any God. You place faith in YOURSELF. Because you are a part of source. This is what LOA and the secret is about, when you really, truly, DEEP-DOWN place faith in yourself, the universe makes things work for you. This has to be experienced , there is no scientific experiment to prove this. The experience will be your proof.

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Yeah, I'm lazy. That's pretty much all I can read when I'm wide awake. For some reason I can read more when I'm tired. But anyways, would this be anything like 'Manifestation'? Also, what is LOA, I'm not familiar with the abbreviation.

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There's too much evidence that points to this. I won't post any evidence, it's really not worth my time.

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Go away.

Ghosts, one of the finest pieces of evidence of afterlife, and NDE's. Ghost stories are creepy because they're so real.

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Originally Posted by hypnocella

Ghosts, one of the finest pieces of evidence of afterlife, and NDE's. Ghost stories are creepy because they're so real.

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Your evidence of the existence of ghosts is that ghost stories are creepy.

I see.

Isn't it funny how so many people claim to have seen ghosts, yet while >90% of the population have camera phones, there are NO acceptable video recordings of ghosts? It's a bit like UFO stories from old farmers.