Thread: Religion in Schools

Originally Posted by slash112

Well, I don't know how it is in America, but I know what it is like here in Scotland.

In America, we strive for a total separation of church and state. Science and reason are taught in schools, while anything resembling religion tends to get shut down. Despite this, many are still in favor of bringing back school prayer and teaching creationism.

It seems that in primary school (5 years old to 11 years old), they sort of get it into your head that Christianity is all truth. You would sing songs about God thinking it is a normal and natural thing to believe in God.

Yeah, we kind of don't do that. Somehow, though, schools are good at instilling a bit of a religious bias in everyone. The American pledge contains the words "under God," which I duly repeated every morning until the seventh grade. It was then that I started branching into atheism, etc., and just began skipping this bit of the Pledge. That phrase wasn't in the original pledge, either, it should be mentioned.

Now, I don't mind religion being taught in school (because if you teach science, you need to teach other beliefs too), but ideally, they should teach you a range of religions, and a good amount about them. It seems we are forced to believe in the Christian faith without even thinking about it.

If you're going to teach religion in schools, you've got to go all or nothing. Either you teach it all (or at least a whole lot of religions and philosophies), or you go none at all, save for science, which is based on the observations and testing we do on the physical world. My AP Bio teacher kept stressing that Evolution was pretty much scientific fact, though everyone is entitled to their opinions.

Children should be able to think for themselves what they believe in, and the best way to do that is to learn as much as possible about both sides.
I went all the way through my first few years of primary school thinking that God definitely exists, because the teachers said so and I had to believe them. It wasn't till after a few years I found out that it was not proven and that some people do not believe in God that I started to look into it. I was then able to make a decision on my own about what I believe in.

I agree with you here. We should arm our children with knowledge, and let them make their own decisions based on what they think is best for themselves. Religion/God was never a part of my life, and it allowed me to make a wise, informed decision on my own religiosity.

Do you guys think we should be taught in such a way that we should be able to make an educated decision on what we believe? Or do you think religion should still be pushed into our brains as children? Or do you think they should knock religion out of the way?

Forcing religion on children is not a great idea, especially since it is all pure speculation anyway. We can't go conning them into believing such silly half-truths. They're entitled to know, too. Schools, especially, should not do this. A school is a place to learn and educate yourself, not discuss the Bible. That's what Church is for.

No religion should be tought in school, it's not on the same level as science. Science is taught in schools because we know it works. What about religion?

Originally Posted by Scatterbrain

No religion should be tought in school, it's not on the same level as science. Science is taught in schools because we know it works. What about religion?

Ditto,

With one exception - sociology. I took sociology at school and it was an overview of many faiths and their impacts on society. It certainly wasnt a case of "Here is the one Truth - all must worship and obey the mighty wrathful sky fairy".

In my highscholl they teach religion from a historical and literary stand point only, Science is the main dog here (as it should be in the PUBLIC education system). About 3/5ths of the students here really freak out when we study evolution because it goes against what there religious beliefs state as fact and the teachers hate teaching it. I guess most of the educators (at least in my area) try to tip-toe around the issue. Mario92 pretty much stated the whole of the how the system works in the good ol' U.S. of A.

It is illegal to teach religion in school here in the US. Teachers get fired and stuff if they try, and schools get sued. Not sure if any one has ever gone to jail for it, but I wouldn't be surprised.

There is a little here and there, but only because its in the culture. People some times make a fuss about Christmas, but who are we really kidding here? Christmas is barely recognizable as a religious celebration any more. Same with all holidays. Valantines day is about love, Christmas is about sainta claus and gifts, easter is about a bunny and chocolate, halloween is about dressing up and candy. There is a religious part to them all but its so buried most people don't know them.

Originally Posted by Scatterbrain

No religion should be tought in school, it's not on the same level as science. Science is taught in schools because we know it works. What about religion?

Ditto,

Originally Posted by evildoctor

Ditto,

With one exception - sociology. I took sociology at school and it was an overview of many faiths and their impacts on society. It certainly wasnt a case of "Here is the one Truth - all must worship and obey the mighty wrathful sky fairy".

The exception I would name would be philosophy in general - including sociology.

Some good points being brought up.

But shouldn't it be that children should have enough knowledge to base a decision on? Like, to decide what to believe in.

I do think that while they are taught science, they should stress that there is empirical evidence to back it up (except say it in a way they can understand of course), and also say that religion does not have that, therefore requires a lot of "faith".

Originally Posted by slash112

Some good points being brought up.

But shouldn't it be that children should have enough knowledge to base a decision on? Like, to decide what to believe in.

What kind of experience can a child between the ages of 5 to 11 base any decision off of? They simply do not have enough knowledge. Religion being taught in school doesn't propse a major effect and is not promised to drive someone in a particular direction. You are a living example of that. You've been to school in your religiously biased school system in Scotland and you've manage to make your own decision am I right? There you have it.

Originally Posted by ShadowNightWing

What kind of experience can a child between the ages of 5 to 11 base any decision off of? They simply do not have enough knowledge. Religion being taught in school doesn't propse a major effect and is not promised to drive someone in a particular direction. You are a living example of that. You've been to school in your religiously biased school system in Scotland and you've manage to make your own decision am I right? There you have it.

Well, if it's okay to teach religion in schools, then which one? I sure as hell don't want my Catholic boy learnin' about that Islam.

Doesn't matter, teach a bit of them all. When your son comes of age he will eventually make up his own mind regardless of what is being taught in schools. He may make a choice you like and then again he may make a choice you're in total disagreements with but regardless, it's his choice and he's completely entitled to that.

Originally Posted by ShadowNightWing

Doesn't matter, teach a bit of them all. When your son comes of age he will eventually make up his own mind regardless of what is being taught in schools. He may make a choice you like and then again he may make a choice you're in total disagreements with but regardless, it's his choice and he's completely entitled to that.

Oh, I don't actually have a kid, just my attempt at satire. Anyway, what is the benefit taking students time to educate them about mythology? I can understand teaching about religion's role in history during an actual history class, but mandatory religious teaching is just absurd.

In my opinion I don't think anything should be forced on a child. I think ideas should be put on the table enabling them to make there own choices once knowledge is gained (Here ya go little Timmy, here's some Religion. Here ya go little Timmy, try some of this Science on for size). On the other hand would the U.S. not be better as a country if citizens were better informed, at least conversant, about other people's religions? Is it not obvious how isolated we are from the complete understanding of other cultures? Would it not allow us to better co-exist with our neighbor because we understand the reasons for their beliefs at least rudimentally? But that's just my opinion some people don't care to have a better understanding of people that are of different cultures and backgrounds. You know the type.

Originally Posted by slash112

Some good points being brought up.

But shouldn't it be that children should have enough knowledge to base a decision on? Like, to decide what to believe in.

I do think that while they are taught science, they should stress that there is empirical evidence to back it up (except say it in a way they can understand of course), and also say that religion does not have that, therefore requires a lot of "faith".

A child can't really discern that. Most 7 year olds can't even distinguish between concrete and abstract concepts, imagine "faith" and "science". Most people of my age I know don't know what the scientific method is.

Also, yeah, you can tell them religion requires "faith", but you can teach them to blindly like faith or to think it's better than science. The problem remains.

I think children should be taught about religion, not be taught religion. It's a pertinent topic, it influences daily life, teach them about it. But don't indoctrinate them.

Originally Posted by ShadowNightWing

In my opinion I don't think anything should be forced on a child. I think ideas should be put on the table enabling them to make there own choices once knowledge is gained (Here ya go little Timmy, here's some Religion. Here ya go little Timmy, try some of this Science on for size).

Though I don't like comparing religion to science in that sense, I see what you mean.

Originally Posted by ShadowNightWing

On the other hand would the U.S. not be better as a country if citizens were better informed, at least conversant, about other people's religions? Is it not obvious how isolated we are from the complete understanding of other cultures? Would it not allow us to better co-exist with our neighbor because we understand the reasons for their beliefs at least rudimentally?

Absolutely, but in that case it seems like it's the culture that should be taught, and not necessarily religion. I have no problem with teaching kids about other cultures (which is something I didn't get in my elementary World History classes..), I just don't think that a school should adopt a religion and preach it to their students, so to speak.

Originally Posted by ShadowNightWing

But that's just my opinion some people don't care to have a better understanding of people that are of different cultures and backgrounds. You know the type.

Living in a small conservative town, yeah, I know the type far too well.

Right, what I mean is that a child would learn stuff, and that "knowledge" would still be there when they are able to make their own decisions. It could effect them a lot.

And I want children to be taught as much as possible so that when the time comes, their decision is based on opinions of a wide range of things they have been taught.

because if you teach science, you need to teach other beliefs too

Except there's a difference: science works, and it can be proven to work. Try powering a plane on prayer and I'll show you a theist who'll shortly be digging his own grave at terminal velocity.

You can't compare a domain that is based upon evidence and that can be disproven to one that can not. Science and religion aren't even in the same ballpark.

Try this with other subjects, to see how absurd this idea is:

if you teach mathematics, you need to teach other beliefs

if you teach geography, you need to teach other beliefs

if you teach english, you need to teach other beliefs

These subjects are not about beliefs. It's not a belief to teach "i before e except after c", to state that "Canada is a country north of the USA and located in North America", or to teach differentiation.

Science is not a set of beliefs. It is a domain of knowledge and a means of acquiring more of it. It is based around developing theories to explain observed facts. Saying e=mc^2 isn't a belief, it's an observed fact that can be backed up with countless man-hours of data. Saying evolution occurred isn't a belief, it's an observed fact backed up by many different things. The theory of evolution in turn attempts to explain the reasons behind these observed facts. This also isn't a belief, it's the best explanation that fits. If a better explanation comes along, or the theory is somehow disproven then it will be ditched.

Science is also self-correcting. The fastest way to become a recognised scientist is to disprove an existing established theory. Disprove Einstein's theory of relativity and you'll go down in history. It's impossible for a conspiracy to occur because of the testing built in to the process, and as I said, because of the incentives to correctly show an existing theory to be false.

Compare that to religion. A diverse set of beliefs all claiming to be the sole truth, yet all are mutually contradictory. In many cases the ideas are blatantly either self-contradictory, or contradictory with reality. They are self-serving, with no incentive to correct errors, or to change the status-quo unless they gain a benefit from doing so. Many of the ideas are impossible to test and rely on faith

Saying religion should be taught merely as an opposing viewpoint to science is as nonsensical as saying homeopathy should be taught as a counterpart to modern medicine.

I think religion should be discussed in schools, at an appropriate age, and from a neutral perspective. I think it should be discussed in a philosophical and sociological manner, and it should be compared to other worldviews and perspectives. For example, the philosophy of atheism/agnosticism/deism etc should also be discussed alongside religious beliefs. The nature of beliefs, evidence, and truth should also be discussed as well.

What should not happen is what happens in many schools in the Western world where children are essentially forced (or under immense peer pressure) to sing hymns, listen to the Bible and stories about Jesus, and so on, where it is being stated as if it is a fact. It's indoctrination, and it's reprehensible. It doesn't have an impact on all, but many people are vulnerable to it, and lack the strength of will and intellect to remain immune to it, and to make up their own minds objectively.

Okay to teach in government schools: This religion says this, that religion says that, and another religion says something else. (but not in science class)

Not okay to teach in government schools: This religion is the correct one.

Originally Posted by Universal Mind

Okay to teach in government schools: This religion says this, that religion says that, and another religion says something else. (but not in science class)

Not okay to teach in government schools: This religion is the correct one.

Indeed. But why only government schools? I think it should be universal. If you want to teach a child a religion, take him to a church. We need to separate proper education and religious education.

I don't think children should be thought religion. I think they should be thought about the different cultures of the world and maybe explain there that religion plays a big part in how some people live. I think religion is a personal thing. So it shouldn't be thought, but chosen.

I hope my english is good enough for you to understand what I mean. If not, please let me know and I'll try again.

Originally Posted by Vranna

I don't think children should be thought religion. I think they should be thoug t about the different cultures of the world and maybe explain there that religion plays a big part in how some people live. I think religion is a personal thing. So it shouldn't be thought, but chosen.

I hope my english is good enough for you to understand what I mean. If not, please let me know and I'll try again.

Your English is fine and I can agree with this. I do have a sort of alternative to this. I think it's okay to introduce religion as a part of cultural awareness, many cultures in this world incorporates their traditions and certain attributes that defines their way of life based off their religious beliefs. In order to understand other cultures I think it's important to introduce and let the child make their own decisions. But you make a good point.

Originally Posted by Kromoh

Indeed. But why only government schools? I think it should be universal. If you want to teach a child a religion, take him to a church. We need to separate proper education and religious education.

I totally agree as far as I and my hypothetical children go, but what I think people should do and what I think the law should force people to do are two different things. I wish children wouldn't have religion crammed down their throats at all, but I am not in favor of banning religious promotion at private schools. I don't want government having that much control over religion either way.

Photo, I know what you are saying. But I didn't mean it exactly the way I put it, it is hard to explain what I meant so I went for something less literal.


What I was trying to say is that if one thing that would influence a decision on what to believe is to be taught, then so should everything else that would influence a decision.



I only hope for religion to be taught fully because I want people to REALLY actually think things through as a natural thing. This would put their logic to practise, and they would in fact have slight more intelligence.
I'm not saying that they will pick atheism, because thinking things through no matter what will still be good for them. But I would assume that logic would bring them towards atheism. Because religion has no logic, only faith in things which were taught a long long time ago.


Let me just stress right now that my purpose in saying this is not because I want to get across any beliefs I may have. It is only because this is what would happen over a long time.

I didn't read every post on this thread so if this has been stated, forgive the repost but in my opinion, students should have the choice of if they want to take a class on christianity (or any other religion) if they want. When i was in school, we didn't have this choice. kind of like an elective.

Originally Posted by slash112

Well, I don't know how it is in America, but I know what it is like here in Scotland.

It seems that in primary school (5 years old to 11 years old), they sort of get it into your head that Christianity is all truth. You would sing songs about God thinking it is a normal and natural thing to believe in God.

Now, I don't mind religion being taught in school (because if you teach science, you need to teach other beliefs too), but ideally, they should teach you a range of religions, and a good amount about them. It seems we are forced to believe in the Christian faith without even thinking about it.

Children should be able to think for themselves what they believe in, and the best way to do that is to learn as much as possible about both sides.
I went all the way through my first few years of primary school thinking that God definitely exists, because the teachers said so and I had to believe them. It wasn't till after a few years I found out that it was not proven and that some people do not believe in God that I started to look into it. I was then able to make a decision on my own about what I believe in.


Do you guys think we should be taught in such a way that we should be able to make an educated decision on what we believe? Or do you think religion should still be pushed into our brains as children? Or do you think they should knock religion out of the way?


It would be interesting to see what you guys think about this.

That's quite bizarre. I'm totally against anything like that. I don't think any relegion should be taught or advocated period The schools should be secular.

That said, I'm not against people singing Christmas songs in Elementary School music classes, making Christmas decorations in art, or whatever.

We did this stuff when i was in Elementary School and i see nothing wrong with it in anyway. I actually think the kind of political correctness associated with replacing Merry Christmas with phrases like Happy Holidays so as not to as offend people is kinda fucked up and needs to go away,( and i'm an atheist.)