Religion in Schools

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Originally Posted by davej

I didn't read every post on this thread so if this has been stated, forgive the repost but in my opinion, students should have the choice of if they want to take a class on christianity (or any other religion) if they want. When i was in school, we didn't have this choice. kind of like an elective.

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I disagree with this. If someone wants to learn religion, they should do it on their own time, preferably in the church of their choice. If no religious institutions are nearby, then the internet is a glorious thing. Religion needs to stay the hell out of schools, period. It has no place in formal education.

Mario, give me one good reason on why religion should stay out of schools as an elective... You do understand what an elective course is right? If not, for example, band or art or shop etc... a class you do not have to have to graduate, just the credit.

Mario, do you believe religion should be taught in state funded colleges?

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Originally Posted by davej

Mario, give me one good reason on why religion should stay out of schools as an elective... You do understand what an elective course is right? If not, for example, band or art or shop etc... a class you do not have to have to graduate, just the credit.

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Separation of Church and State. Schools are state-based. Religion should not be a part of formal education, especially not in a school environment, where children are still developing and are (quite frankly) more gullible and willing to glomp onto anything that sounds like a good idea than at just about any other phase of life.

The "elective" bit does not excuse it. Parents may still forcibly enroll their children in that class. Leave it for the church.

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Originally Posted by davej

Mario, do you believe religion should be taught is state funded colleges?

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If a person wishes to study religion from an objective viewpoint, by the time they reach college, they have the developed mental capacity (hopefully) to study it objectively. College is optional; school, not so much.

Now, if I may ask a question: why do you want religion in the schools at all? Why can't the church just take care of it?

You still didn't give a good reason on why religion shouldn't be in schools. You do not get electives until Jr. High (what my school system called Jr. High was 7th 8th 9th grade). You don't think children should be able to make some decision on what they learn at that age?
Whats the difference inbetween a parent take there child to church and allowing them to take a class on religion at school? there is no difference.
You say it is alright for students to study religion from an objective view point in a STATE FUNDED college but not from a STATE FUNDED high school; again, whats the difference as long as the parent allows it?

Why do I think religion should be taught in school... because it gives an option. I don't mean that there just be Christian courses, but other religions as well. When I was in college, i took a religions of the world course. It covered many different religions and I really enjoyed learning about other culutres through the eyes of religion. WHy not give that to children, if not children, teenagers.
Without a fundamental understanding of religion, children miss out on some of the fundamental motivations of human history and human thought. Without an understanding of the power of Religious motivation, Charlemagne is just some guy that lead an army. Without an understanding of the Power of Religious Intolerance, the Inquisition just comes across as a period of Injustice. Without and understanding of the power of Religious extremism, 9-11, becomes just another terrorist event. Without an Understanding of the power of religious consciousness, The Salvation Army is just the world’s biggest garage sale.

If you're going with a religions of the worlds course, I'd be more inclined to agree with you. However, I am not in support of some dude preaching a certain religion in the classroom. That is a job for the church and the church alone.

Wouldn't teaching a religions class be the same as someone preaching it in church. For instance say you took a college course on the new testament, there wouldn't be much difference in someone teaching it or preaching it. it is basically the same.

Mario, you make a good point. But I would prefer it be taught in school, rather than ALL in church. Because schools tend to look at it as if it is a possibility, whereas churches look at the bible as if it speaks nothing but truth.

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Originally Posted by davej

Wouldn't teaching a religions class be the same as someone preaching it in church. For instance say you took a college course on the new testament, there wouldn't be much difference in someone teaching it or preaching it. it is basically the same.

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My point exactly. Leave it to the Church. This is more applicable to high school courses, though. College professors would be far less likely to stand up and preach the tenets of any religion.

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Originally Posted by slash112

Mario, you make a good point. But I would prefer it be taught in school, rather than ALL in church. Because schools tend to look at it as if it is a possibility, whereas churches look at the bible as if it speaks nothing but truth.

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Enter College. College courses approach it as more of a possibility instead of absolute truth, and would be more concerned about the history and impact of said religion on the world, as well as various interpretations of the tenets of this religion. It would be less concerned with hammering ideals into the skulls of those taking the course. I place more faith in this system as opposed to teaching the same or similar courses in High School. High school is a turbulent time for many, and a lot of kids are looking for something to latch onto, anything at all. I would not want them to immediately glomp onto the first faith that sounded like a somewhat good idea. Trust me, it happens.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontl...dolescent.html

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Giedd hypothesizes that the growth in gray matter followed by the pruning of connections is a particularly important stage of brain development in which what teens do or do not do can affect them for the rest of their lives. He calls this the "use it or lose it principle," and tells FRONTLINE, "If a teen is doing music or sports or academics, those are the cells and connections that will be hardwired. If they're lying on the couch or playing video games or MTV, those are the cells and connections that are going to survive."

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Yeah, right around the teenage years, the prefrontal cortex comes online. This is a very crucial period of learning and development for the teenager. By the time an individual enters college, however, the brain has "stabilized" once more, and said individual is better equipped to look at religion with an objective eye, which is why I am more supportive of college classes on the subject instead of high school classes.

Ok, good point.

But I study religion at school, but my whole class is made up of atheists except one person. We all see it as learning the way people think and the way they live because of it. None of our opinions are really effected, because by this time we have already made our minds up. Which is why the younger age school is the most important part to look at. Right now we can ignore high school and above, and concentrate on 11 year olds and below.

My opinion is that religion shouldn't be totally banned in schools, but with the number of different cultures that are represented in schools these days, I think it would be irresponsible and inappropriate to teach only one. If you're going to teach one, you've gotta teach them all, and in an objective manner so that students can make up their own minds.

I'm not totally sure about teaching religion in primary/elemetary schools though... I think its a bit too heavy for children to be told "if you don't do this, then you won't make it to heaven" etc. since they probably won't have the discernment to decipher facts from religious beliefs.

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Originally Posted by nzguy

My opinion is that religion shouldn't be totally banned in schools, but with the number of different cultures that are represented in schools these days, I think it would be irresponsible and inappropriate to teach only one. If you're going to teach one, you've gotta teach them all, and in an objective manner so that students can make up their own minds.

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I agree with this.

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I'm not totally sure about teaching religion in primary/elemetary schools though... I think its a bit too heavy for children to be told "if you don't do this, then you won't make it to heaven" etc. since they probably won't have the discernment to decipher facts from religious beliefs.

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As I said before, that age of kids is the age that people need to be taught things properly, because that is the age which the most information is kept, or rather mostly the information that stays and makes us assume things that we were taught back then.

What I mean is, anything that you would naturally accept as a fact without really thinking about it is something you would have been taught at that point in life.

This also means that kids shouldn't be taught it the way you described ("If you don't do this then you won't make it to heaven").

But they should rather be taught something more like "These people believe that if you don't do that, you will not make it to heaven, but these other people believe that it is this, but other people believe heaven doesn't exist" blah blah blah...

I think the education of children (cultural aspects) should be given to his father and mother only. School is necessary to social and intellectual development and of course to have a work, not to impregnate totally subjective beliefs. If the father wants so much religion, just bring the kid in the churches at saturdays/sundays ;).

Yeah I agree. I just think that the time and effort that would need to be invested to make sure it is an objective, equal overview of all religions could be better spent teaching academically applicable subjects.

Like Awakening said, I think its important for the parents to be involved in this area. After all, it isn't a school's responsibility to influence and form a child's religious beliefs in my opinion, and at that age, its difficult to make an informed decision about what religion, if any, is right for you.

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Originally Posted by Awakening

I think the education of children (cultural aspects) should be given to his father and mother only. School is necessary to social and intellectual development and of course to have a work, not to impregnate totally subjective beliefs. If the father wants so much religion, just bring the kid in the churches at saturdays/sundays ;).

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I agree with this.

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Originally Posted by nzguy

Yeah I agree. I just think that the time and effort that would need to be invested to make sure it is an objective, equal overview of all religions could be better spent teaching academically applicable subjects.

Like Awakening said, I think its important for the parents to be involved in this area. After all, it isn't a school's responsibility to influence and form a child's religious beliefs in my opinion, and at that age, its difficult to make an informed decision about what religion, if any, is right for you.

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I also agree with this.

I do not believe it should be the parent's choice. I believe the person alone should make the choice. I am very happy that my parents taught me to be open minded to everything, and that they let me decide my own beliefs etc.

The worst thing a parent can do with this kind of thing is to force a belief into the child, which would happen if they were to bring them up in a certain way.

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Originally Posted by slash112

I do not believe it should be the parent's choice. I believe the person alone should make the choice. I am very happy that my parents taught me to be open minded to everything, and that they let me decide my own beliefs etc.

The worst thing a parent can do with this kind of thing is to force a belief into the child, which would happen if they were to bring them up in a certain way.

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I agree with this, not only with religious matters, but almost everything. My father is an atheist and didn't forced me any belief, but ironically he imposed me to travel to another city (our family is there) every time he went, until I had 15 and shouted against it. I also had to go to the beach every saturday and sunday, until I was ~13 -- we stayed there 10am-4pm :(. Even my sister could just stay home and when I questioned he said 'it was for study'.

Sry for the offtopic :oops:

Most schools here are catholic schools formed by sisters, there are state schools as well though. So in primary school I got to learn about jesus and what not. But then in high school the course Religion was way more abstract and actually more like sociology. We also learned a great deal about all the religions in the world and that was in fact a great experience. I believe religion used to be a tool that worked in the past to let people behave in a social environment, now we have better ways to do that like sociology...

Oh and PS: Thank god catholicism doesn't follow the bible word by word, what I learned was far more useful and is actually what the bible is about... Love eachother, take care of eachother, blablabla. Not the bull**** that some take way too seriously. The common sense that's good for a child that's what they should learn in school.

Then about it not being the parents choice... It's undeniable decided by other factors as well... Like: I will never raise my kids in America cos then they will most likely be indoctrinated by christianity. But maybe I'm misinformed, but all extremists I've met seemed to be from the US.

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Originally Posted by slash112
I do not believe it should be the parent's choice. I believe the person alone should make the choice. I am very happy that my parents taught me to be open minded to everything, and that they let me decide my own beliefs etc.

The worst thing a parent can do with this kind of thing is to force a belief into the child, which would happen if they were to bring them up in a certain way.

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So would you tell your kids about Christanity and take them to church if they asked?

I'm ok with religion in school, if it's taught in a diferent way.

If it's religion , it could be about every religion there is, basic stuff idiology history, so if a person is interested in any of them they can go practice it by themselves, let us have options God/Alah/Buda Damnit.

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Originally Posted by Photolysis

Except there's a difference: science works, and it can be proven to work. Try powering a plane on prayer and I'll show you a theist who'll shortly be digging his own grave at terminal velocity.

You can't compare a domain that is based upon evidence and that can be disproven to one that can not. Science and religion aren't even in the same ballpark.

Try this with other subjects, to see how absurd this idea is:





These subjects are not about beliefs. It's not a belief to teach "i before e except after c", to state that "Canada is a country north of the USA and located in North America", or to teach differentiation.

Science is not a set of beliefs. It is a domain of knowledge and a means of acquiring more of it. It is based around developing theories to explain observed facts. Saying e=mc^2 isn't a belief, it's an observed fact that can be backed up with countless man-hours of data. Saying evolution occurred isn't a belief, it's an observed fact backed up by many different things. The theory of evolution in turn attempts to explain the reasons behind these observed facts. This also isn't a belief, it's the best explanation that fits. If a better explanation comes along, or the theory is somehow disproven then it will be ditched.

Science is also self-correcting. The fastest way to become a recognised scientist is to disprove an existing established theory. Disprove Einstein's theory of relativity and you'll go down in history. It's impossible for a conspiracy to occur because of the testing built in to the process, and as I said, because of the incentives to correctly show an existing theory to be false.

Compare that to religion. A diverse set of beliefs all claiming to be the sole truth, yet all are mutually contradictory. In many cases the ideas are blatantly either self-contradictory, or contradictory with reality. They are self-serving, with no incentive to correct errors, or to change the status-quo unless they gain a benefit from doing so. Many of the ideas are impossible to test and rely on faith

Saying religion should be taught merely as an opposing viewpoint to science is as nonsensical as saying homeopathy should be taught as a counterpart to modern medicine.

I think religion should be discussed in schools, at an appropriate age, and from a neutral perspective. I think it should be discussed in a philosophical and sociological manner, and it should be compared to other worldviews and perspectives. For example, the philosophy of atheism/agnosticism/deism etc should also be discussed alongside religious beliefs. The nature of beliefs, evidence, and truth should also be discussed as well.

What should not happen is what happens in many schools in the Western world where children are essentially forced (or under immense peer pressure) to sing hymns, listen to the Bible and stories about Jesus, and so on, where it is being stated as if it is a fact. It's indoctrination, and it's reprehensible. It doesn't have an impact on all, but many people are vulnerable to it, and lack the strength of will and intellect to remain immune to it, and to make up their own minds objectively.

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Fucking this

a million fucking times this

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Originally Posted by davej

I didn't read every post on this thread so if this has been stated, forgive the repost but in my opinion, students should have the choice of if they want to take a class on christianity (or any other religion) if they want. When i was in school, we didn't have this choice. kind of like an elective.

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What happens to a student who wants to take an elective on Islam when there's no Islamic teacher? Obviously a student curious about Christianity will have an easy time, but for those who don't find what they want in mainstream western religions they will have a much, much harder time. I can understand offering a world religions elective, that covers all the major religions of the world and the sociological conditions behind them, but actually offering a class on a single religion is entirely to divisive.

Catbus, if you would have read my post, you would have seen after Christanity I did say or any other religion. I have no problem with any other religion being taught in schools.

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Originally Posted by davej

Catbus, if you would have read my post, you would have seen after Christanity I did say or any other religion. I have no problem with any other religion being taught in schools.

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Okay, so you would enroll your daughter in a class on Islam, where they teach her to pray to Mecca 5 times a day? Or how about a course on Scientology, where they rid her of thetans? Would you be savvy with a class preaching the tenets of Mormonism? A class focusing on a single religion is far too narrow; it is an all-or-nothing system.

I took a comparative religions class in high school. It covered all major religions and it was actually like a history class. It was taught by one of my favorite teachers and he was very careful not to act biased towards any one religion, it was strictly about the facts. We studied the religions of the world just as we would study ancient cultures in any other history class. I enjoyed it very much. I think classes like this one would be very beneficial to any young person.