Thread: Believers who hear the truth

My avatar is changed.

Okay, if this is like question time, I have a question.

If you believe differently, then just discard this: but I would like to know, if you believe that not everybody will be saved, and some will be damned, then how is it possible for anyone to be happy in heaven? The biggest and most important truth of spiritual knowledge is that we are all one mind, and nobody's suffering is worth any more than another person's. So how is it, that people can be happy in heaven when the suffering of the damned is just as pressing as their own suffering would be? I could not sit back, I would lead a rebellion against God.

If you reply with "It's God's justice" then I need to know how you would explain that.

Isaiah (46:10-11) explains that everything that comes to pass is God's will, along with many other bible quotes. So you can't say that God 'wills' everyone to be saved but it won't happen. Because if God wills it, then definitively, it will happen.

Finally, why is Jesus not a hypocrit for telling us to forgive our enemies when God will never forgive his enemies?

Still waiting for an answer. I'll even extend the question:

What reason tells you that the overpowered being (god) spoken of in the bible is real? How do you know what 'god' wants us to do? And why do you think we should obey?

Originally Posted by Invader

Welcome to Dreamviews.

Originally Posted by Dreamviews Lucid Dreaming Community Forums

THIS FUCKING THREAD

I chuckled heartily

Oh question

What was up with like the old testament.

Shit's fucked up.

Idolfan. It's not a matter that you are happy in heaven. Rather you are happy to do gods work which creates heaven. All are saved through the power of love. Love is the way to life. Gods will based on love is free choice. Justice is cause and effect. You get what you give. Jesus gave his life and in doing so gained it.

Scatterbrain
I don't seek to prove god to others with reasons. Rather I live to give testimony to the truth. I take the bible as a historical text which has been altered over time. But the word of god is through me. What god wants is all that is good. Obedience to god is therefore living in love. I know this because I know truth and it seems obvious to me.

Originally Posted by Carôusoul

Oh question

What was up with like the old testament.

Shit's fucked up.

Don't ask me I didn't write it.

Originally Posted by Praise

Don't ask me I didn't write it.

iight dat cool

Originally Posted by Praise

As Gods servants it's our honor to live in the light and truth. With all our heart we serve the Lord gladly. True followers who can listen carefully know that wisdom is more precious than gold or silver. So here I give testimony to the truth and inspired from Christ and from his father I teach. I would be glad to assist anyone who has genuine questions.

We know it is foolish to argue with unbelievers. Including many who are on this site. We are slaves to righteousness. Dead to mistakes but alive with Christ. We stay humble and don't use foul language. We know to love our enemies and forgive those who persecute us. We Consider ourselves fortunate when all kinds of trials come our way. For we know that when our faith succeeds in facing such trials the result is the ability to endure.

The message about Christ's death on the cross is nonsense to those who are being lost. But for those who are being saved it's gods power.

Why do you only speak in metaphors?

Originally Posted by Praise

Idolfan. It's not a matter that you are happy in heaven. Rather you are happy to do gods work which creates heaven. All are saved through the power of love.

I don't think you have the right to say what you're supposed to be happy about in heaven. A-you haven't been there; B-your whole religion and beliefs are based on free will - individuality:

Now, by saying that heaven is not a matter of happiness means that technically heaven can be hell. Which is the strangest view of heaven I've ever seen and contradictory to its very nature.

If your response to this is that I'm making a strawman argument, then that's because you didn't really answer his question. As a matter of fact, your response implies that everybody in heaven is an automaton working as a slave for God, a satisfied slave, but a slave nonetheless. I'd accept this as a valid answer to the question "how can there be happiness in heaven while hell exists", if it didn't contradict the other part you claim - that we have individuality and free will.

It is not justice to be manipulated into something you're not. If I was a Christian and sent to heaven, I couldn't experience it (as Idolfan said) because of all the suffering. For God to sort this out would mean changing my soul, which creates instant injustice, since he could've done the same for those in hell at any time.

All are saved through the pover of love? Through what kind of power do those who go to hell go? I thought God was all about love, how can there be love in this hell deal?

Originally Posted by Praise

Justice is cause and effect. You get what you give.

Now another thing. If justice is cause and effect, then why isn't there justice done upon God? He is the cause and we are the effect. He should be blamed for everything that ever happened. God gave everybody, everything anybody has ever gotten, including themselves. And trust me, there are tons of bad things that were given. When will God get what he gave? Never, right?

Originally Posted by Praise

All are saved through the power of love. Love is the way to life. Gods will based on love is free choice.

How can God's will be based on love after all the bad things God did as stated in the Bible.

Originally Posted by Praise

Jesus gave his life and in doing so gained it.

About Jesus giving his life... Does that mean if I commit suicide I will gain it? That sentence doesn't make any sense.

Originally Posted by Praise

Idolfan. It's not a matter that you are happy in heaven. Rather you are happy to do gods work which creates heaven. All are saved through the power of love. Love is the way to life. Gods will based on love is free choice. Justice is cause and effect. You get what you give. Jesus gave his life and in doing so gained it.

So effectively we're God's slaves?

Of course I will not be happy doing God's work in heaven if he's torturing the rest of humanity. That's like saying I'd be happy as a Nazi working for Hitler.

But I'll accept this so far. If you take a literalistic biblical approach then you have all of Bonsay's points to answer (as well as the rest of those in my last post), however I think the afterlife is perfectly plausible without this approach. And, to give you an honest reason, I am not going to argue that the bible is fallable, because it should be so obvious in the first place! Bishop John Shelby Spong has a book entitled The Sins Of Scripture which should make it *extremely* clear, as well as Saving The Bible From Fundamentalism.

So, I'm going to accept that justice is in fact cause and effect. I would rather stick to my own view of an impersonal God than try to use your own views against you (this way I get something out of it). So, due to some metaphysical explaination, there is an apparent heaven and hell in the spirit world.

Since God is supposed to be all loving and all powerful. "Love never fails", "All things are possible with God", "The way of God is perfect", "Christ paid the penalty for all" etc. etc. then how is it possible for people to stay in hell forever? At some point the souls will either escape, be helped by God's angels, or choose to stay. God isn't going to force people to stay because that would not be useful. What's the point in staying there once you want to move on and you've learned your lesson? When Christians say that God is going to make these people suffer, it comes across to me as insane blasphemy, because it totally demeans the power and character of God.

I will repeat again: since we are all a part of God, how is it possible for one of us to suffer forever? God needs to be complete.

Originally Posted by Praise

Don't ask me I didn't write it.

This has to be the most pathetic cop out I have seen for a long time.

You did not write the NT either - therefore by your "logic" (or lack thereof) you must be equally unqualified to comment upon this also.

There are 3 ways to serve God.

1. Be yourself.

2. Work with your internal developement.

3. Helped when asked for.

If God is all powerful, and perfect, and his words and work are perfect, how in the world could it have possibly changed over the years? Something perfect would be infallible, meaning it would still retain the same meaning thousands of years ago as it would today. When you put the yolk of religion on the shoulders of a man with nothing to lose and everything to gain, he will say things that will ensure the continuation of his religion, even if it wasn't the word of god, and just the threat of an eternal punishment to keep people from jumping ship.

Not to mention the entire idea of creation is ridiculous, if disobedience is a sin like it says in the Bible, and Adam and Eve ate from the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil (Thus allowing sin into them) how could they have known what they were doing is wrong before they did it? The two were PERFECTLY innocent, they couldn't have POSSIBLY known that the talking snake was bad and that eating from the tree was bad. It would be like ordering an infant to be killed because it crossed a line that it didn't even know was there.

And even if I assumed that god DID exist, I wouldn't follow him.
The same god that Christians worship today was the same god who ordered an army to ransack a city and smash the skulls of babies, said slavery was acceptable, and is more than willing to punish people for the actions of their ancestors.

You can keep your god ALL to yourself, I don't want a slice, it is a meal made with spoiled ingredients.

I hope Praise doesn't think we're pushing him off. I'm not. It would be momentous to see satisfactory responses.

Originally Posted by Idolfan

I hope Praise doesn't think we're pushing him off. I'm not. It would be momentous to see satisfactory responses.

Yea, his response might've been the tip in the scale that brought me back to the lord!

Originally Posted by Idolfan

Since God is supposed to be all loving and all powerful. "Love never fails", "All things are possible with God", "The way of God is perfect", "Christ paid the penalty for all" etc. etc. then how is it possible for people to stay in hell forever?

I'm not saying that you stay in a hell forever. I only believe in spiritual planes of existence that vibrate at different levels. The slower the vibration the more hellish. The faster the vibration the more heavenly. Earth is at a particular vibration, and so on. What vibration you are you attract that to yourself and create your life.

Originally Posted by Praise

I'm not saying that you stay in a hell forever. I only believe in spiritual planes of existence that vibrate at different levels. The slower the vibration the more hellish. The faster the vibration the more heavenly. Earth is at a particular vibration, and so on. What vibration you are you attract that to yourself and create your life.

OMG WE'VE GOT A SMART ONE!!!!!!!!!!

I hope you're not too insulted. Usually when Christians come preaching over the internet it's common to make a few assumptions. After seeing the same senseless babble over and over again people tend to generalise.

Your idea of spiritual planes is exactly what I believe in. My questions were typically damnationist/fundamentalist related. I guess the only thing I'm confused about now is how you would interpret the final judgement. I understand the purpose of Christ in this worldview to an extent. But I don't understand; if the world is divided into spiritual planes of existence then why does Jesus give such vivid and typically Jewish descriptions of God's judgement? You can see it in the Gospel of Matthew all over the place, including Revelations. He makes it sound more or less like this world is some kind of great cosmic farming process, and that God casts the wicked into hell.

But this doesn't make sense to me because doesn't a spirit world imply that people send themselves into their preffered areas, rather than God forcing anyone? The theologian Swedenborg spent ages trying to explain how the words in the bible are symbolic for this, but it doesn't really cut it with me.

Jesus' description is very black and white: heaven or hell. However why is Jesus talking like this if the spirit world is a gradient of states?

This has been interesting me for about a week now; I would be genuinely appreciative of what you have to say.

I'm not religious by any means, and label myself as a sceptic, but what i don't understand is the non-believers jumping in here and filling these threads with arguments and ridicule.
If you don't like it don't come into the thread, i mean.. no one is trying to preach to you or convert you here.

Originally Posted by Azzinoth

I'm not religious by any means, and label myself as a sceptic, but what i don't understand is the non-believers jumping in here and filling these threads with arguments and ridicule.
If you don't like it don't come into the thread, i mean.. no one is trying to preach to you or convert you here.

I agree. Usually, be it your average Christian, all you need to do is show them verses from their own holy book to prove them wrong. That's well better than insults!

You didn't really answer my questions...

(What reason tells you that the overpowered being (god) spoken of in the bible is real?)

Originally Posted by Praise

Rather I live to give testimony to the truth. I take the bible as a historical text which has been altered over time. But the word of god is through me.

You just said you take the bible is true because you know it is, that begs the question: Then what reason tells you that the bible is true?


(How do you know what 'god' wants us to do?)

What god wants is all that is good. Obedience to god is therefore living in love. I know this because I know truth and it seems obvious to me.

'I know because it's true' is not an answer...

And if 'god' wants us just to live in love, why follow all the other Christian rituals and beliefs?



(And why do you think we should obey?)

This third question wasn't even addressed.

Originally Posted by Praise

Scatterbrain
I don't seek to prove god to others with reasons.

Then what? 'Believe because I tell you to'?

Idolfan the final judgment. Good question. I think it means when this earth is finished raising to a higher level vibration as a whole. Then the "wicked" or more dense in vibration cannot be on earth anymore. And so are cast somewhere else where they are more suited. Somewhere more dense.

Originally Posted by Praise

*Why serve the lord gladly with all ones heart.

I will answer that with respect to Praise on a personal level and very little respect for Christianity itself.

The answer is, according to Christianity... Because if you don't, you burn forever and ever. God is the dictator of existence, and he has the power to outdo Adolf Hitler, Pol Pot, Joseph Stalin, Mao Zedong, and Kim Jong Il an infinite number of times over. He uses and threatens with that power too. God, with his infinite power, has the emotional and self image stability of a pissed off redneck on massive loads of steroids and alcohol.

Here is another question. Where does God get his authority? I don't think the Bible says anything about an election.

Originally Posted by Praise

Idolfan the final judgment. Good question. I think it means when this earth is finished raising to a higher level vibration as a whole. Then the "wicked" or more dense in vibration cannot be on earth anymore. And so are cast somewhere else where they are more suited. Somewhere more dense.

Originally Posted by Praise

higher level vibration

Ah shit