Suffering, A Contridiction of an Omnipotent Being?

[Ne-yo]

Ladies and Gentlemen, Before I start this analysis I like to point this out.. "Suffering exists, therefor there is no god" is not a reasonable conclusion. The Subject of suffering entails one of the hottest topics in the R/S forum and I believe it's past time that we tackled this topic head on. I like to start off with a few quotes from theist and atheist alike, further I like to dissect what does suffering truly implies and how does one feel it contridicts the essences of God. logic would paint a grim picture. "life is miserable suffering, and if God is real, he sure as hell doesn't care". thats what logic says. He could make suffering nonexistent without there being a problem with doing that. Could he not? If not, then how is he infinitely powerful? If God is all powerful, suffering never needed to be created Besides, as I keep saying, an infinitely powerful being could give free will and the possibilities of all of its benefits without the possibility of suffering. Otherwise the being is not infinitely powerful. If there is a god who cares about human suffering who also happens to be Omnipotent and Omniscient, then Human Suffering should not exist. Suffering and pain, is a consequence of freedom. He gave us earth and allowed us to do as we please with it. The damage we do to our self is our own fault. He could end it all, but then we will never truly be free. Facts are facts regardless of if we acknowledge them. It's just that if we think that we're not animals and elephants are "just" animals, it makes it much easier to inflict suffering on them which is every bit as severe as the suffering that human feels. How many people do you know who seem determined to suffer? I know many! And I used to be that way a lot. Sometimes, I get in a blue funk, and I still am! Until we change our minds, and decide to focus our attention in more positive direction, thereis nothing God/dess can do to take away the suffering. But when it comes to externally-caused suffering, which happens from all sorts of causes, then I aslo think we have to understand what lessons a given situation has for us. In the case of suffering, often the lesson is one of compassion. And no 'normal' person chooses to become a rapist or a murderer. That result comes dictated by outside factors (DNA, upbringing, special circumstances derived of chance, etc), so in the end God is still guilty of all the suffering such people bring forth. If God is all powerful, and knows everything there was, is, and will be, from the beginning to the end of time, why do we have all these theatrics? Why not just skip all the pain and suffering for people, and just put them into heaven? If you already know someone is going to suffer for the next 10 years of their life, and then die and get into heaven, why not just skip all the pointless suffering, and let them in to begin with? In the end, it comes down to the fact that for God, our suffering is no more than simple entertainment for him since he already knows the outcome of everything. How do you rationalize people's pain and suffering that they must endure when its beyond their control or ability to choose? Belief in reincarnation is merely an evasion of death and a support of ego without accompanying understanding of emptiness, specifically no-self. The Buddha teaches that all suffering in the world arises from thirsting after forms (including thought-forms, concepts) that have no set shape, no independent identity: taht do not exist at all as we envision them. Why don't we let our thoughts and condemnation die? Let there be an end to suffering and ignorance. Now I'm sure there are more quotes on suffering but I got tired of looking, for those of you who would like to share your thoughts, please feel free to do so, even for those that has been quoted. From the various quotes that has been listed, we see that 'suffering' seems to cross areas of not only predation but deprivation as well. Now I like to direct your attention to this... One of God's characteristics of being a benelovent God is, (God doesn't desire for his children to suffer) Bottom line This statement is false. To make the assumption that God's most high priority is the prevention of suffering in all beings is completely and utterly without warrant and it doesn't apply. Why? Because the statement "God does not want his people to suffer" is false when applied by itself. God has many goals for his creation. 1. God wants people to experience social interaction of give/take 2. God wants people to experience community with regards to sharing. 3. God wants his people to have satisfaction in eating. 4. God wants his people to enjoy achievements and expand on imagination through creation. 5. God wants his people to go fourth, be fruitful and to multiply. Now one thing we are aware of and thanks to science is that phyical pain is extremely constructive for any creature as in most cases physical pain is associated as an early warning system and the health of an individual would be far more vital (applied in this case) than the suffering applied with pain/suffering. unless our concepts of suffering is different than we can investigate these areas as well but in lieu of pain/suffering God is fully free to create people with the awareness of suffering and it doesn't in any way violate a possiblity of existence or his benelovent nature. The floor is open

[Bonsay]

What if I don't want any of his goals. What if I suffer because of this?

[Universal Mind]

Ne-yo... Are there rules God has to operate within? You, like every theist I ever talk to about this, seem to think there are. Your point seems to be, "The only way for x to happen is for y to happen, and God wants y to happen." Can God change the rule that for x to happen y must happen? If not, then God is not infinitely powerful. As you quoted me saying... He could make suffering nonexistent without there being a problem with doing that. Could he not? If not, then how is he infinitely powerful? I have said that here to the point of my fingers almost falling off, and I have yet to see anybody get around it. Make sure you understand my point first. I keep getting the impression that the people I debate on this don't get what I am saying. So, before you retort, please sum up my point. What is it you think I am saying?

[really]

Nice thread Ne-yo. What if I don't want any of his goals. What if I suffer because of this? I think we can say God's goals are the goals to Him, as God alone needs no goals. Since all goals of God lead to Him and resolve suffering as impossible, your "own" goals must be vulnerable. In other words, we suffer because we choose other than God; because we choose other than Love. It is simple, so simple that it goes by unnoticed. He could make suffering nonexistent without there being a problem with doing that. Could he not? If not, then how is he infinitely powerful? The entire problem with this "suffering versus God" argument, along with most of the above quotes, is that "suffering" and "God" are only partially understood. To answer your question UM, God has already "made suffering non-existent". So I'd rather say - God has already Created you in Heaven. He is infinitely powerful because this is the infinite Reality. Suffering belongs in the human domain - the purgatorial domain of karma and spiritual fulfillment, but it does not represent the Truth that has contextualized it. I'll explain it simply like this: God Created everything. Everything is therefore Divine, for it is Created in God's image, in His Everlasting Love. This means that suffering is a denial of this Truth; while suffering perceives a lack of love, which is a consequence of "ignorance" and the attachment to what is illusory. Suffering is formed by illusion! God did not Create suffering. Examples: Originally Posted by A Roxxor If there is a god who cares about human suffering who also happens to be Omnipotent and Omniscient, then Human Suffering should not exist. Frankly, human suffering ultimately "does not exist," as it is essentially based on unreality. It is formed in the depths of the mind's imaginary games and and narcissism. God cares about you enough to have Created you in everlasting Peace and Joy, and you have the absolute freedom to come to know it by your own assent. Originally Posted by Scatterbrain And no 'normal' person chooses to become a rapist or a murderer. That result comes dictated by outside factors (DNA, upbringing, special circumstances derived of chance, etc), so in the end God is still guilty of all the suffering such people bring forth. In God, guilt doesn't exist. Guilt, as well as sin and suffering, are human notions and judgments. Forgiveness will have you know this. If God didn't create suffering, then it has never occurred in Truth. Originally Posted by Kastro If God is all powerful, and knows everything there was, is, and will be, from the beginning to the end of time, why do we have all these theatrics? Why not just skip all the pain and suffering for people, and just put them into heaven? If you already know someone is going to suffer for the next 10 years of their life, and then die and get into heaven, why not just skip all the pointless suffering, and let them in to begin with? Humans are blind to the Truth, and to "who they are". All of this ^ is already the case - we are in Heaven to begin with! It is up to you to "skip the theatrics" because they were made by you. It is typically perceived that Heaven and God are "out there" and need "to be gotten to". It is just a habitual perception out of man's naivete to spiritual truth, but also reinforced by the religious literature (or wording) and dogma. But again, it is just a projection of a perception. The Mystics will tell you God is within, as did Jesus, for example ("The Kingdom of Heaven is within you").

[Ne-yo]

Ne-yo... Are there rules God has to operate within? You, like every theist I ever talk to about this, seem to think there are. Your point seems to be, "The only way for x to happen is for y to happen, and God wants y to happen." Can God change the rule that for x to happen y must happen? If not, then God is not infinitely powerful. As you quoted me saying... Make sure you understand my point first. I keep getting the impression that the people I debate on this don't get what I am saying. So, before you retort, please sum up my point. What is it you think I am saying? I'm pretty sure I have the just of what you are stating here. This statement is no different than asking "Can God create Rock so heavy that he cannot life it?" I think you have a distorted view on what the Bible tells us about God being Almighty. As for myself I believe that God is All-powerful, meaning there is nothing that he cannot do. God can do anything that he is determined to do. However, the Bible does make it pretty clear that there are some things God cannot do. God cannot lie. God cannot commit sin, God cannot die. God cannot do anything that is contrary to his Holy Character. So in all actually God would be set within certain rules that only applies to him. However, this doesn't contridict the Bible because the Bible never actually uses the word Omnipotent. God is cited by the Hebrew word "Shadday" Meaning Almighty or All powerful. Also the scriptures 'never' make the claim that God can do 'all things' The Scriputres are pretty specific with letting us know, that there are things God cannot do. Your definition of Omnipotent as applied to God is not supported by what the Bible tells us about God's Holy Character and what he is capable of doing. That kind of God does not exist. The God in the Bible can do anything he is determined to do and if it goes against his Holy Character then he cannot do it. Being able to do whatever you're determined to do is the true essence of an entity that is classified as Almighty and the Scriptures fully support this. The Scriptures doesn't support God having the ability to do 'virtual anything'. I hope that answers your question. Now I do have a question for you, what does it mean for someone to suffer? Nice thread Ne-yo. Thanks Really, I'm sure it's going to bring in some very interesting posts. I'll explain it simply like this: God Created everything. Everything is therefore Divine, for it is Created in God's image, in His Everlasting Love. This means that suffering is a denial of this Truth; while suffering perceives a lack of love, which is a consequence of "ignorance" and the attachment to what is illusory. Suffering is formed by illusion! God did not Create suffering. Very Good point and it makes a ton of sense as you hit on a very philosophical level We will dissect what it truly means to suffer and once we do that, I'm sure everyones going to look at it totally different.

[Sornaensis]

According to the bible, God is just a giant human. There is nothing demonstrating his 'Holy Character' other that we are told he has one. The Bible is a pretty poorly written novel, though. God is basically the greatest Gary-Stu ever; his character is consistently told, but never shown, he always gets his way, his rules (Be them contradictory or illogical or just stupid or not) are always accepted, and his author's idea of a plot-twist is some incomprehensible ridiculousness that contradicts both his shown AND his told character. Oh, he also always wins, even when he never actually does.

[Dizko]

According to the bible, God is just a giant human. Reference please. There is nothing demonstrating his 'Holy Character' other that we are told he has one. Genesis 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth John 2:23 Now when he was in Jerusalem at the passover, in the feast day, many believed in his name, when they saw the miracles which he did. 1 Chronicles 29:11 Thine, O LORD is the greatness, and the power, and the glory, and the victory, and the majesty: for all that is in the heaven and in the earth is thine; thine is the kingdom, O LORD, and thou art exalted as head above all. The Bible is a pretty poorly written novel, though. God is basically the greatest Gary-Stu ever; Link to verse? I think I missed that one his character is consistently told, but never shown, Exodus 24:9-11 (King James Version) 9Then went up Moses, and Aaron, Nadab, and Abihu, and seventy of the elders of Israel: 10And they saw the God of Israel: and there was under his feet as it were a paved work of a sapphire stone, and as it were the body of heaven in his clearness. 11And upon the nobles of the children of Israel he laid not his hand: also they saw God, and did eat and drink. he always gets his way, Gen2:17But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: Gen 3:6 ...and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat. his rules (Be them contradictory or illogical or just stupid or not) are always accepted So you accept them? and his author's idea of a plot-twist is some incomprehensible ridiculousness that contradicts both his shown AND his told character. But I thought... his character is consistently told, but never shown, Oh, he also always wins, even when he never actually does. Not going to bother with that one. I must admit I did laugh though.

[Ne-yo]

Very well written Dizko Now these are the kind of reply s I'm looking forward to seeing. It's only going to get better especially once we get into the heart of this topic.

[fzongqvxp]

I am starting to believe that all people will go to heaven. 1 Tomothy 2:1-4 I urge, then, first of all, that requests, prayers, intercession and thanksgiving be made for everyone- for kings and all those in authority, that we may live peaceful and quiet lives in all godliness and holiness. This is good, and pleases God our Savior, who wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. Remember the story of the prodigal son? Well i think that contrary to the common believe that the reunion between the father and son represents christians on this earth becoming saved, christianity is the jealous older brother. Some people need to believe that they are doing good because others are recieving negative consequences. Think about the story of Jesus. It is about a struggling nation who for thousands of years has been preparing for the messiah, but by becoming so corrupt and obsessed with rules and regulations, so many of them missed the very thing they were waiting for. I think this is just like our lives. We spend so much time trying to achieve true happiness through materialism and cutting others down, when we miss the fact that true happiness only lies within. So the world is like God's world of warcraft, with intense irony built in to the storyline. All the suffering helps us discover both concrete and abstract truth. We learn to be happy on this earth, and the bible tells us how to do it, while others completely miss the point. If God truly desires all men to be saved, then all men must be saved. If all humans are flawed, its hard to believe that the thing separating the saved from the unsaved is belief. So suffering on this earth only prepares us for after this life, where we will discover true happiness.

[DrunkenArse]

Nice thread Ne-yo. agreed. I think we can say God's goals are the goals to Him, as God alone needs no goals. Since all goals of God lead to Him and resolve suffering as impossible, your "own" goals must be vulnerable. In other words, we suffer because we choose other than God; because we choose other than Love. It is simple, so simple that it goes by unnoticed. God Created everything. Everything is therefore Divine, for it is Created in God's image, in His Everlasting Love. This means that suffering is a denial of this Truth; while suffering perceives a lack of love, which is a consequence of "ignorance" and the attachment to what is illusory. Suffering is formed by illusion! God did not Create suffering. Frankly, human suffering ultimately "does not exist," as it is essentially based on unreality. It is formed in the depths of the mind's imaginary games and and narcissism. God cares about you enough to have Created you in everlasting Peace and Joy, and you have the absolute freedom to come to know it by your own assent. In God, guilt doesn't exist. Guilt, as well as sin and suffering, are human notions and judgments. Forgiveness will have you know this. If God didn't create suffering, then it has never occurred in Truth. I like it but the god stuff really turns me off and needlessly complicates things (as god tends to do). I don't see a need to bring love into it either. What every legitimate instance of suffering has in common is that the person that is suffering desires something other than what is happening. So whereas you say that we suffer because we choose other than god, I say we suffer because we choose other than what is. The degree to which we are attached to what is not over what is determines the degree to which we are suffering. It is typically perceived that Heaven and God are "out there" and need "to be gotten to". It is just a habitual perception out of man's naivete to spiritual truth, but also reinforced by the religious literature (or wording) and dogma. But again, it is just a projection of a perception. The Mystics will tell you God is within, as did Jesus, for example ("The Kingdom of Heaven is within you"). Again with complicating a simple statement with the god stuff. Reduction of suffering exists in our mind and we achieve it by learning to not be attached to a state of perception other than what our existence is providing us at the moment. The degree to which we reduce suffering corresponds to the degree to which we learn to accept what we cannot change. Ultimately, I shy away from the "if suffering exists, than god doesn't" argument as well because it is flawed but god is entirely unnecessary and only serves to complicate otherwise simple things.

[Alric]

I'm pretty sure I have the just of what you are stating here. This statement is no different than asking "Can God create Rock so heavy that he cannot life it?" I think you have a distorted view on what the Bible tells us about God being Almighty. As for myself I believe that God is All-powerful, meaning there is nothing that he cannot do. God can do anything that he is determined to do. However, the Bible does make it pretty clear that there are some things God cannot do. God cannot lie. God cannot commit sin, God cannot die. God cannot do anything that is contrary to his Holy Character. So in all actually God would be set within certain rules that only applies to him. However, this doesn't contridict the Bible because the Bible never actually uses the word Omnipotent. God is cited by the Hebrew word "Shadday" Meaning Almighty or All powerful. Also the scriptures 'never' make the claim that God can do 'all things' The Scriputres are pretty specific with letting us know, that there are things God cannot do. Your definition of Omnipotent as applied to God is not supported by what the Bible tells us about God's Holy Character and what he is capable of doing. That kind of God does not exist. The God in the Bible can do anything he is determined to do and if it goes against his Holy Character then he cannot do it. Being able to do whatever you're determined to do is the true essence of an entity that is classified as Almighty and the Scriptures fully support this. The Scriptures doesn't support God having the ability to do 'virtual anything'. That is very true. People often use that arbitrary definition of omnipotent. People who believe in god, generally make the claim that, he created the world and humans, and that he is vastly more powerful than humans can comprehend. Both of which are easily possible without having the power to do illogical things that contradict it's own nature.

[RedfishBluefish]

I don't know how anyone could claim that this is the best of all possible worlds - ie. there is nothing god could possibly do that would improve it.... eh. EDIT: As for "omnipotence", for once I actually agree. "Can god make a rock so heavy he cannot lift it" is a stupid argument.

[Sornaensis]

Reference please. He has human emotions, and appears to think like a human to me. "You don't agree with me, so you are wrong and shall be punished". Genesis 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth John 2:23 Now when he was in Jerusalem at the passover, in the feast day, many believed in his name, when they saw the miracles which he did. 1 Chronicles 29:11 Thine, O LORD is the greatness, and the power, and the glory, and the victory, and the majesty: for all that is in the heaven and in the earth is thine; thine is the kingdom, O LORD, and thou art exalted as head above all. Only the first verse actually tells of god doing something, the rest are just talking about stuff. Link to verse? I think I missed that one Sarcasm goes over your head...? Exodus 24:9-11 (King James Version) 9Then went up Moses, and Aaron, Nadab, and Abihu, and seventy of the elders of Israel: 10And they saw the God of Israel: and there was under his feet as it were a paved work of a sapphire stone, and as it were the body of heaven in his clearness. 11And upon the nobles of the children of Israel he laid not his hand: also they saw God, and did eat and drink. I never see his character, here, I am just told about it in a rather unconvincing manner. Gen2:17But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: Gen 3:6 ...and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat. ...And then he just starting dammning just fucking everybody, didn't he? He's like a giant child with all the authority. So you accept them? Everyone in the bible seems okay with them. Which is, of course, what I meant. But you knew that But I thought... I said his TOLD character and his SHOWN character DID NOT MATCH not that HE DIDN'T HAVE ONE. That would be completely different. Not going to bother with that one. I must admit I did laugh though. I was in a hurry when I wrote this, so the bad wording/ lack of proper explaining is my fault here, but that's basically just going back to the point that he's a big baby who likes to punish everybody ridiculously when they 'disobey' him. I mean, in Adam and Eve's defense, he DID create the snake, he DID create the forbidden fruit and he DID create them with the knowledge that they WOULD eat the fruit and thus he punished them with ridiculous severity (All of their children forever? Hardass, much?) and then HE STILL LET THE SERPENT SPIRIT LIVE and terrorize humans. What a douchebag. It's all his own fault for creating the sodding fruit in the first place, isn't it?[/QUOTE]

[Universal Mind]

To answer your question UM, God has already "made suffering non-existent". So I'd rather say - God has already Created you in Heaven. He is infinitely powerful because this is the infinite Reality. Suffering belongs in the human domain - the purgatorial domain of karma and spiritual fulfillment, but it does not represent the Truth that has contextualized it. I'll explain it simply like this: God Created everything. Everything is therefore Divine, for it is Created in God's image, in His Everlasting Love. This means that suffering is a denial of this Truth; while suffering perceives a lack of love, which is a consequence of "ignorance" and the attachment to what is illusory. Suffering is formed by illusion! God did not Create suffering. You say that suffering is an illusion. That does not mean people don't experience it. I know I have, and I bet you have. If God were all powerful and completely good, you and I and every other organism in existence would have been infinitely happy campers this whole time and would be forever after now, and there would be no problems with that. I'm pretty sure I have the just of what you are stating here. This statement is no different than asking "Can God create Rock so heavy that he cannot life it?" I think you have a distorted view on what the Bible tells us about God being Almighty. As for myself I believe that God is All-powerful, meaning there is nothing that he cannot do. God can do anything that he is determined to do. However, the Bible does make it pretty clear that there are some things God cannot do. God cannot lie. God cannot commit sin, God cannot die. God cannot do anything that is contrary to his Holy Character. So in all actually God would be set within certain rules that only applies to him. However, this doesn't contridict the Bible because the Bible never actually uses the word Omnipotent. God is cited by the Hebrew word "Shadday" Meaning Almighty or All powerful. Also the scriptures 'never' make the claim that God can do 'all things' The Scriputres are pretty specific with letting us know, that there are things God cannot do. Your definition of Omnipotent as applied to God is not supported by what the Bible tells us about God's Holy Character and what he is capable of doing. That kind of God does not exist. The God in the Bible can do anything he is determined to do and if it goes against his Holy Character then he cannot do it. Being able to do whatever you're determined to do is the true essence of an entity that is classified as Almighty and the Scriptures fully support this. The Scriptures doesn't support God having the ability to do 'virtual anything'. Read these Bible verses and see otherwise... http://www.biblestudyguide.org/topic...mnipotence.htm "Omnipotent" defined by the dictionary: http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/omnipotent Ultimately, I shy away from the "if suffering exists, than god doesn't" argument as well because it is flawed How? That is very true. People often use that arbitrary definition of omnipotent. People who believe in god, generally make the claim that, he created the world and humans, and that he is vastly more powerful than humans can comprehend. Both of which are easily possible without having the power to do illogical things that contradict it's own nature. It is the dictionary definition and the Bible definition. You made up your own definition. Omnipotence is not about being able to do anything only within certain boundaries. It is about having no boundaries whatsoever, not even laws of logic. Also, who created the laws of logic in the first place, according to you? Here are these again in case you missed where I posted them for Ne-yo. http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/omnipotent http://www.biblestudyguide.org/topic...mnipotence.htm As for "omnipotence", for once I actually agree. "Can god make a rock so heavy he cannot lift it" is a stupid argument. Explain that. Omnipotence is a ridiculous concept, so it involves crazy scenarios like God being able to do something he cannot do. Infinite power has no boundaries. That is what defines it. So, even logic is no boundary. Get it? The scenario works as a perfectly good reductio ad absurdum of infinite power.

[Alric]

The place you linked to does not say that god is Omnipotent. It says that god is almighty. Also the dictionary link you gave, says that Omnipotent also means having unlimited authority. No where does either say, that he can contradict the nature of his own existence. So the statement still stands, that god can do anything he wants to do, though he can't do things against his own nature. Your links doesn't show anything else other than what was already stated.

[Universal Mind]

The place you linked to does not say that god is Omnipotent. It says that god is almighty. Also the dictionary link you gave, says that Omnipotent also means having unlimited authority. No where does either say, that he can contradict the nature of his own existence. So the statement still stands, that god can do anything he wants to do, though he can't do things against his own nature. Your links doesn't show anything else other than what was already stated. Yes, the dictionary also mentions unlimited authority. You are talking about limits. God: God's Omnipotence Bible study on God: omnipotence.Rev. 19:6 The Lord God is Omnipotent. "Omnipotent" means the state of having unlimited power. Thus, God's authority is unlimited. Gen. 18:14 Nothing is too hard for the Lord. Job 42:2 God can do everything. Matt. 19:26 All things are possible with God. Lk. 1:37 Nothing is impossible for God.

[RedfishBluefish]

Explain that. Omnipotence is a ridiculous concept, so it involves crazy scenarios like God being able to do something he cannot do. Infinite power has no boundaries. That is what defines it. So, even logic is no boundary. Get it? The scenario works as a perfectly good reductio ad absurdum of infinite power. That part is perfectly true, and I agree. But I don't think there is any religious person that claims god has the capability to do anything including logically inconsistent things. Unless I've been living under a rock all my life, it's a strawman. Atheist: Can god make a rock so heavy he cannot lift it? Theist: No. Atheist: Ok.

[Universal Mind]

That part is perfectly true, and I agree. But I don't think there is any religious person that claims god has the capability to do anything including logically inconsistent things. Unless I've been living under a rock all my life, it's a strawman. Atheist: Can god make a rock so heavy he cannot lift it? Theist: No. Atheist: Ok. See my post right before yours.

[DrunkenArse]

The place you linked to does not say that god is Omnipotent. It says that god is almighty. Also the dictionary link you gave, says that Omnipotent also means having unlimited authority. No where does either say, that he can contradict the nature of his own existence. You need to get off the god juice Alric. It's fucking with your brain. @UM. It's flawed because even if they you do find quotes like the above (nice job by the way!), they can always fall back on the "Suffering is just the absence of god and god gave us free will so we choose suffering for ourselves and each other" argument. That's my opinion anyways. I see your point as well. I personally favor verbally abusing/ridiculing them when they start denying physical facts and trying to politely demonstrate how god just isn't necessary (and is in fact sloppy theology) when they are respecting the bounds of religion.

[RedfishBluefish]

And? These were peasants, not lawyers. You think they were going to write in an exception for every logic-defying act they can think of? If I run Conway's game of life on my computer I can do anything within that universe - I am "omnipotent" within it. Don't you think that's what they meant by "all-powerful"? Do people really believe that god can make a rock so heavy he cannot lift it?

[Alric]

Yea but you have to actually read the links they give. Which the first one is someone praising god as almighty, and it was a title. The second is someone saying that god can allow an old woman to give birth to a child. The third is a person talking to god and telling him that he knows he can do anything. The fourth is about people selling stuff and giving to the poor. The fifth one was also about god's power allowing an "old barren" woman give birth. Obviously, none of them have anything at all to do with the argument we are having at the moment. You are trying to claim that an infinitely powerful god can't exist. So far I havn't heard any argument's against a near infinitely powerful god. Perhaps you have no argument for that, which is a shame since that is what everyone is talking about, not the fictional god you created in your own mind, so that you can argue against.

[Universal Mind]

And? These were peasants, not lawyers. You think they were going to write in an exception for every logic-defying act they can think of? If I run Conway's game of life on my computer I can do anything within that universe - I am "omnipotent" within it. Don't you think that's what they meant by "all-powerful"? Do people really believe that god can make a rock so heavy he cannot lift it? The Bible says there is NOTHING God cannot do. If you think whoever wrote it was confused and overlooked some things to think about, I obviously agree with you, but it says what it says. Yea but you have to actually read the links they give. Which the first one is someone praising god as almighty, and it was a title. The second is someone saying that god can allow an old woman to give birth to a child. The third is a person talking to god and telling him that he knows he can do anything. The fourth is about people selling stuff and giving to the poor. The fifth one was also about god's power allowing an "old barren" woman give birth. Obviously, none of them have anything at all to do with the argument we are having at the moment. How does that contradict my point? Besides, I was quoting the Bible, not the people in other links. You are trying to claim that an infinitely powerful god can't exist. So far I havn't heard any argument's against a near infinitely powerful god. Perhaps you have no argument for that, which is a shame since that is what everyone is talking about, not the fictional god you created in your own mind, so that you can argue against. I just gave you four Bible verses that back up what I am saying. Also, I did give arguments against an infinitely powerful god. The rock scenario is one thing I talked about, and the existence of suffering while God is supposed to be loving and merciful is another. The existence of suffering disproves the existence of a god who is simultaneously totally good and infinitely powerful. The Judeo-Christian-Islamic God does not exist.

[Noogah]

I think we can say God's goals are the goals to Him, as God alone needs no goals. Since all goals of God lead to Him and resolve suffering as impossible, your "own" goals must be vulnerable. In other words, we suffer because we choose other than God; because we choose other than Love. It is simple, so simple that it goes by unnoticed. Excellent. I couldn't agree more.

[Universal Mind]

Excellent. I couldn't agree more. Why does God allow that to happen, and why does he have the rule that it works that way, if he is totally good? Also, how exactly does a person "choose other than God" if he does not believe in God? By they way, I love your sig. I hate how a big government fanatic got elected on the basis that he is good at public speaking.

[Ne-yo]

The Bible says there is NOTHING God cannot do. If you think whoever wrote it was confused and overlooked some things to think about, I obviously agree with you, but it says what it says. UM you can't just go by a few verses that you found on some website and take it as face value without reading the entire book and you can't nit-pick the Bible Scriptures and take a few and completely forget about the others. Genesis 18:4 is definately in questionable terms. "Is anything to difficult for the Lord"? "Is NOTHING to difficult for the Lord?" You have to remember that there are other verses in the Bible and those other verses mentions things God cannot do. However, once again God can do anything that is in accordance with his Holy Character. He is all powerful and by definition he is Omnipotent meaning, Almighty. Now lets look a little further and investigate the word Omnipotent further, as it seems this "one" word is the major hindrance. As I stated earlier In the old Testament the Father is titled as "Shadday" which is equivalent to Almighty or All-powerful. Now in the New Testament the Father is titled "Pantokrator" Which is actually translated 9 times as Almighty and once as Omnipotent. This is probably the best statement that should sum it up better for you a quote from Wikipedia. Pay Special attention to the bold area. The most common translation of Pantocrator is "Almighty" or "All-powerful". In this understanding, Pantokrator is a compound word formed from the Greek words for "all" and the noun "strength" (κρατος). This is often understood in terms of potential power; i.e., able to do anything, or omnipotent. Another, more literal translation is "Ruler of All" or, less literally, "Sustainer of the World". In this understanding, Pantokrator is a compound word formed from the Greek for "all" and the verb meaning "To accomplish something" or "to sustain something" (κρατεω). This translation speaks more to God's actual power; i.e., God does everything (as opposed to God can do everything). EDIT -- Now I do have a question for you, what does it mean for someone to suffer?