Thread: am i intolerant for having anti-christian tendencies?

I have the same problem. I tend to look down on Christians.

Although, I don't know they're Christian until they've been blabbing about it for five minutes or say something like, "Well, you just have to trust in God."

I also look down on Christians and all religious people for that matter. My disrespect goes up or down depending on how involved they are in their religion.

well i definitely don't think religious people and religion are inherently bad.

Originally Posted by cygnus

well i definitely don't think religious people and religion are inherently bad.

My humble opinion: "Christians" per-say aren't what your being "intolerant" towards. It stems from the fact that it's the faith of the majority and as such has a disproportionate amount of idiots and "crazies" (at least in the west). The type of people who follow everything on "blind faith" are likely to be entrenched in this majority (i.e. never had to/wanted to question their beliefs.) If any other religion (or philosophy) was the clear majority the problem would be the same, just with different place settings.

In the immortal words of South Park:

"Look, maybe us Mormons do believe in crazy stories that make absolutely no sense, and maybe Joseph Smith did make it all up, but I have a great life. and a great family, and I have the Book of Mormon to thank for that. The truth is, I don't care if Joseph Smith made it all up, because what the church teaches now is loving your family, being nice and helping people. And even though people in this town might think that's stupid, I still choose to believe in it. All I ever did was try to be your friend, Stan, but you're so high and mighty you couldn't look past my religion and just be my friend back. You've got a lot of growing up to do, buddy. Suck my balls."

I look down on Christians also.
If they keep it private I can look past it.
If they are open-minded but just happen to admire Jesus Christ for his myth that is cool. Hey, I even admire Jesus.
But people who try to shape the world according to what a book says and who think that they are saved and everyone who doesn't believe what they do is damned, I have no respect for that.
I have no respect for people who try to make one feel guilty.
I also have anger towards what Christianity has done to the world and other people like you do. I have anger towards anyone who can take a message for loving everyone unconditionally and turning into an excuse for genocide, torture, etc.

Are we intolerant? Yes, we are, but maybe not enough.
But, really, we should try to look past it in individuals and just see them as another human like ourselves, no matter how misguided. But for Christianity as a whole, we should be intolerant to it, as well as any organized religion. Organized religion is the root of evil in my opinion. Unorganized Pagan Spirituality and mysticism is cool by me.

Originally Posted by Dannon Oneironaut

I look down on Christians also.
If they keep it private I can look past it.
If they are open-minded but just happen to admire Jesus Christ for his myth that is cool. Hey, I even admire Jesus.
But people who try to shape the world according to what a book says and who think that they are saved and everyone who doesn't believe what they do is damned, I have no respect for that.
I have no respect for people who try to make one feel guilty.
I also have anger towards what Christianity has done to the world and other people like you do. I have anger towards anyone who can take a message for loving everyone unconditionally and turning into an excuse for genocide, torture, etc.

Something to keep in mind with the whole "Christians ruining the world" thing is that people were ruining the world before Christianity, and will continue to if it disappeared tomorrow. People are dicks, true story.

Originally Posted by TheUnknownKadath

Something to keep in mind with the whole "Christians ruining the world" thing is that people were ruining the world before Christianity, and will continue to if it disappeared tomorrow. People are dicks, true story.

True, true...

i just got caught on a pet peeve of mine.
Jesus was truly not a dick. he was a cool amazing dude.
I try to look for the good in all people. But on forums I often get caught up in rants of pet peeves like Organized Religion and shitty doctrines.

I am a Christian and I am not ashamed to say that I am a Christian. I know there are Christians out there who will judge others and make others feel guilty for not believing. Personally, I don't do that. If not believing in any type of religion makes you a bette person that great, have at it. If following Buddha makes you a better person great. It doesn't matter to me what you believe. that is the beauty of America. I look at you for who you are. I don't believe in judging people, that isn't my job. I have friends who are athiests and who follow other religions and I have never forced any of my beliefs upon them.
I know that you are probably speaking in general and I'm not taking this thread personally but there are a lot of Christians out there that are very good people and there are a lot of Christians out there that are whackos. Just like with athiests or any other religion.
So, like me or don't like me based on my religious beliefs, it really doesn't matter to me. Nothing anyone says can or will change who i am or what i believe in.
And besides, this thread is about as bad as someone speaking against a race of people.

Originally Posted by TheUnknownKadath

My humble opinion: "Christians" per-say aren't what your being "intolerant" towards. It stems from the fact that it's the faith of the majority and as such has a disproportionate amount of idiots and "crazies" (at least in the west). The type of people who follow everything on "blind faith" are likely to be entrenched in this majority (i.e. never had to/wanted to question their beliefs.) If any other religion (or philosophy) was the clear majority the problem would be the same, just with different place settings.

what i am intolerant of is an amalgamation, which complicates the whole thing ('very critical of' would be a better way to put it). the collective effects of the creation of a christian monoculture, as you mentioned, is part of this.

but i sort of disagree with you about the 'other religion being the majority' thing. if christianity didn't have a history of forced conversion and marginalization of other belief systems, you would probably see a diversification of religion. why? manifest destiny! if the christian god's intention wasn't for his followers to spread westward through america converting heathens, there might still be hundreds of american indian tribes. american indians had a huge array of beliefs - there was no unifying religion, although there were shared themes - especially respect for nature. christians sure as fuck don't think that nature is sacred. despite what they might say, their actions are to the contrary.

Originally Posted by Dannon Oneironaut

I look down on Christians also.
If they keep it private I can look past it.
If they are open-minded but just happen to admire Jesus Christ for his myth that is cool. Hey, I even admire Jesus.
But people who try to shape the world according to what a book says and who think that they are saved and everyone who doesn't believe what they do is damned, I have no respect for that.
I have no respect for people who try to make one feel guilty.
I also have anger towards what Christianity has done to the world and other people like you do. I have anger towards anyone who can take a message for loving everyone unconditionally and turning into an excuse for genocide, torture, etc.

Are we intolerant? Yes, we are, but maybe not enough.
But, really, we should try to look past it in individuals and just see them as another human like ourselves, no matter how misguided. But for Christianity as a whole, we should be intolerant to it, as well as any organized religion. Organized religion is the root of evil in my opinion. Unorganized Pagan Spirituality and mysticism is cool by me.

wow, dannon. yes. absolutely.

Originally Posted by TheUnknownKadath

Something to keep in mind with the whole "Christians ruining the world" thing is that people were ruining the world before Christianity, and will continue to if it disappeared tomorrow. People are dicks, true story.

i don't think so.
if by 'ruining the world' you mean destroying nature, that came along once christian beliefs were in place. christianity in the context of modernity legitimizes environmental degradation and utilitarianism.

christians place this huge emphasis on the duality of good and evil and will tell you what is acceptable and what is a sin in a social context, yet when it comes to nature it's fine for them to turn the other cheek as their 'born again' leaders remove measures that check industrial practices and pollution levels so that their corporate buddies can regulate themselves!!


(EDIT): i'm sorry if it sounds like i'm attacking all christians.

I don't look down on them because I was one myself for a long time, devoted and what not. You just have to realize people have been raised believing in this, their religion is apart of who they are, and they won't give it up easily. Saying this like "You should pray" is a gesture of goodwill from them, you take it for what it is and not get all flustered thinking "What is some old delusional ritualitic prayer going to do for me? There is no god to pray to! Thanks a lot dumbass!".

It's a way of life for these people, and they think they are doing something right by believing in Jesus and following his example.

I would love to know what you all would think if I came in here and said i look down on athiest or i look down on black people or I look down on white people or i look down on those who worship buddha or whoever. I look down on fill in the blank. I have been called ignorant many times in here (which I don't really care) but this thread is showing a LOT of ignorance.

Originally Posted by davej

I would love to know what you all would think if I came in here and said i look down on athiest or i look down on black people or I look down on white people or i look down on those who worship buddha or whoever. I look down on fill in the blank. I have been called ignorant many times in here (which I don't really care) but this thread is showing a LOT of ignorance.

Personal ideology and a color of skin are not the same thing now are they? I'm sorry, the idea you're mentioning skin color in the example is just ridiculous.

Personally, I look down only on people who do harm.
Being a Christian nowadays is so individual. They're not all necessarily anti-gay, anti-joy, anti-feminists. So, I always skip the label, get to know the person without prejudices.

Anyway, Davej, because of the word 'prejudices' I do see what you mean, but you're pushing it to hard. This is not about whether someone is baptized or not, it is about their points of view and behavior.

Originally Posted by davej

I would love to know what you all would think if I came in here and said i look down on athiest or i look down on black people or I look down on white people or i look down on those who worship buddha or whoever. I look down on fill in the blank. I have been called ignorant many times in here (which I don't really care) but this thread is showing a LOT of ignorance.

Firstly as Luanne pointed out, there's a large difference between an ideology or belief system, and something like skin colour. I can potentially convince people why Christianity is wrong, and is a harmful and nonsensical set of beliefs. I can't convince a black person to turn white, because that's a genetic factor beyond control, and there's also nothing wrong with having a different skin colour.

I know some very intelligent Christians, who are very nice people and I like them very much. I have a lot of respect for them, but I'm not going to pretend I don't think less of them in some way for believing in such nonsense. From an unbiased perspective, it's easy to see how arbitrary it is picking a certain religion.

As for other Christians, some of them have some very sick and evil beliefs. If it wasn't a religious idea, they'd (hopefully) be horrified at the thought, but because of the mental compartmentalisation, they see it as fine. It's amazing that someone can condemn torture/murder by a human, yet condone infinitely worse torture by god. Why should such people be respected? Any rational and decent person SHOULD think less of these people.

The thing is, I can justify my position, in the same way I could justify why I think less of criminals (for example). I'm not trying to equate Christianity to criminality (before someone tries to take that out of context), but nevertheless, my stance can be backed up with good reasons.

Ask a person why he hates black people, and you won't get any decent justification for it, simply because there is no reasonable justification. It's simply racism.

I don't judge everyone the same, but the label "Christian" automatically means that there will be certain nonsensical beliefs, so I can still justify thinking less of them than I otherwise would in general, even if the degree varies wildly.

Originally Posted by cygnus

christians place this huge emphasis on the duality of good and evil and will tell you what is acceptable and what is a sin in a social context, yet when it comes to nature it's fine for them to turn the other cheek as their 'born again' leaders remove measures that check industrial practices and pollution levels so that their corporate buddies can regulate themselves!!

What you seem to have a problem with is the hypocrisy of leadership. I assure you, that is not solely in Christianity.

The leaders of china's republic (who's government discourages religion) have sold out the health of there country (and the world) for money while claiming it's for the public good. (While the US is still a higher polluter (purely from the amount of industrialization that's taken place), the amount from china is much, much worse. (Less industry overall but more pollution in relation to it's industry.) How is that different then the preacher who claims to do "God's work" while selling out to serve his own ends?










Hypocrisy isn't anything new either.

Originally Posted by Photolysis

Firstly as Luanne pointed out, there's a large difference between an ideology or belief system, and something like skin colour. I can potentially convince people why Christianity is wrong, and is a harmful and nonsensical set of beliefs. I can't convince a black person to turn white, because that's a genetic factor beyond control, and there's also nothing wrong with having a different skin colour.

I know some very intelligent Christians, who are very nice people and I like them very much. I have a lot of respect for them, but I'm not going to pretend I don't think less of them in some way for believing in such nonsense. From an unbiased perspective, it's easy to see how arbitrary it is picking a certain religion.

{{There's a large difference between an sexual orientation and something like skin colour. I can potentially convince people why being gay is wrong, and is harmful and nonsensical. I can't convince a black person to turn white, because that's a genetic factor beyond control, and there's also nothing wrong with having a different skin colour.

I know some very intelligent gays, who are very nice people and I like them very much. I have a lot of respect for them, but I'm not going to pretend I don't think less of them in some way for believing in such nonsense. From an unbiased perspective, it's easy to see how arbitrary it is picking a certain sexual orientation. }}

See how bad that sounds when you change the group? In my mind the problem with religion comes when you choose to believe what they can't prove over what they can. You can never prove that God doesn't exist. But you can prove that evolution does.

I don't think less of anyone for their beliefs.

I think less of them for who they're are on the inside.

Well, you've completely bastardised my post. If you're going to change the group, at least change it to the correct one, instead of completely missing the point.

Sexuality is not a choice, like skin colour. Don't put words in my mouth.

I think it is pretty rediculous to think less of someone because of their religion. every person should be taken as an individual, not as part of some larger group, that is like saying all republicans or all democrats are the same. In fact, I think a political group is a good comparison to a religion.

Many are raised as either a democrat or a republican, and stick with it. many dems look down on republicans and vice versa. but in the end...is it really correct to do so? Not all republicans supported bushes plans, just like not a single christian alive today contributed to the crusades.

And I must say, your idea that christianity legitimizes nature destruction is quite absured. If it wasnt the mask of religion it would be something else that the business owners would use to commit such things.

Originally Posted by TheUnknownKadath

{{There's a large difference between an sexual orientation and something like skin colour. I can potentially convince people why being gay is wrong, and is harmful and nonsensical. I can't convince a black person to turn white, because that's a genetic factor beyond control, and there's also nothing wrong with having a different skin colour.

I know some very intelligent gays, who are very nice people and I like them very much. I have a lot of respect for them, but I'm not going to pretend I don't think less of them in some way for believing in such nonsense. From an unbiased perspective, it's easy to see how arbitrary it is picking a certain sexual orientation. }}

See how bad that sounds when you change the group?

If you change the group within what we're talking about, and that is - ideology, than it is open for discussion.

Originally Posted by tkdyo
I think it is pretty rediculous to think less of someone because of their religion. every person should be taken as an individual, not as part of some larger group, that is like saying all republicans or all democrats are the same. In fact, I think a political group is a good comparison to a religion.

Exactly, ideology.

Originally Posted by Photolysis

Well, you've completely bastardised my post. If you're going to change the group, at least change it to the correct one, instead of completely missing the point.

Sexuality is not a choice, like skin colour. Don't put words in my mouth.

http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn7147

And neither is religion. People are genetically inclined to believe religion, just like people are genetically inclined towards a specific sexuality. But ultimately they choose to act on it.

And if it doesn't hurt anyone who cares?

I've been similarly conflicted, cygnus. In adolescence, I was strongly anti-Christian, both from a detached sense of the absurdity that anyone could believe this stuff and an underlying resentment that I was born under occupation by such idiots and crazy people (not my family so much as media, gov't, and some step-aunts/uncles/family). Now some of you I'm sure are nodding along with this sentiment, but I hope some also see that it comes from pure ego. As human beings, we are profoundly alike. We're inclined to ignore the background and see only that sliver of a percentage by which we differ, but we are all in very much the same situation, we're all confused, we all find ways to cope, we've all been moved, surprised ourselves, betrayed ourselves... It's not a platitude; it's a fundamental reality. Not just, "There but for the grace of [x] go I," but for all intents and purposes, "There go I."

No matter how you rate the intelligence, status, goodwill or rationality of the person in front of you, you are looking in a mirror.

I still recoil sometimes from an oddly inserted "God bless," but it's generally the intention more than the content that puts me off--sometimes people use it as a probe, almost a secret handshake to find out if you're a friendly or one of 'those people.' It's almost identical to the way a racist will make an off-color remark and watch your reaction to see if they're among friends. If the intention seems like genuine gratitude or goodwill toward a fellow person, it doesn't bother me at all.

Originally Posted by Taosaur

In adolescence, I was strongly anti-Christian, both from a detached sense of the absurdity that anyone could believe this stuff and an underlying resentment that I was born under occupation by such idiots and crazy people (not my family so much as media, gov't, and some step-aunts/uncles/family). Now some of you I'm sure are nodding along with this sentiment, but I hope some also see that it comes from pure ego.

Well, since you hoped... yes, I see that it comes from ego. Whenever we feel anger and resentment, no matter how justified it feels, it is in fact pure ego.

As human beings, we are profoundly alike. We're inclined to ignore the background and see only that sliver of a percentage by which we differ, but we are all in very much the same situation, we're all confused, we all find ways to cope, we've all been moved, surprised ourselves, betrayed ourselves... It's not a platitude; it's a fundamental reality. Not just, "There but for the grace of [x] go I," but for all intents and purposes, "There go I."

No matter how you rate the intelligence, status, goodwill or rationality of the person in front of you, you are looking in a mirror.

This is exactly what people should be aware of, but unfortunately, almost never are. The characteristic that annoys 'us' (ego growing....about to explode) the most about someone indicates our own uncertainty. That's way the monster called ego recognizes the precise characteristic in the first place, and stands in way of love and friendship.

I haven't really read all other comments

Sounds like you have a prejudice toward Christians for no inherent reason. Are you afraid of them? Do they scare you? There has to be a reason for your outlook on them. Do you have the same outlook towards Jews, or Muslims, Hindu, Buddist, Wikkin, Satinism... ?

I honestly believe that all humans have no prejudice towards anything until they are hurt by a thing

I hate people that prattle on about their religion. "Yah, that's nice, I don't care, good for you." Or those fire and brimstone kinds of people that say if you don't believe and go to church and read the bible, you're going to hell. I thought God loved everyone...

Personally, I'm agnostic. Yes, I believe in God and Jesus, but I don't categorize myself to a certain sub religion within Christianity. Also, I lean more toward the science side of creation. Science is more proven than religion. Religion is all hearsay

I highly doubt that someone just decides to hate someone unless they're fed propaganda about it

I'm not making accusations, I'm just saying that there has to be a reason for your thoughts about Christians

Wow, big discussion since I was last here.
Yes, the Judeo-Christian ideology is responsible for the destruction of the environment. A male God from the sky encouraging his "chosen people" to wipe out the people who strive to live in harmony with the Earth. Where is the Goddess? Where is Mother Nature? Condemned as Eve for knowledge and sexuality and everything natural is a sin. YHVH creates an ideology that promotes multiple personalities where there is you as you think you are supposed to be at war with the you as you really are. This creates guilt and this creates war when projected onto people who aren't ashamed to be who they are. And this is a virus that has infected the whole world. I don't know if it was a DNA mutation by the hands of an Alien named YHVH or what. But it has spread. But it came from YHVH, not Jesus.

To the pagans of the world we are a part of Nature and all of Nature is Divine. We need to relearn that. Either nothing is divine or everything is divine. Natural resources are sacred. Energy that runs your car or heats your house is sacred. Pantheism is OK.

And yes, I can't help but lose respect of Jews, or Muslims.

I guess I have a problem with JHVH Allah. I think that he is NOT who he claims to be.

Spoiler for Crazy alternative religious theory here. I am agnostic about this theory but it is fun in a science fiction kind of way and it makes sense.:

Either he is an Alien that manipulated people into serving him, or he is a parasite inorganic being. I think that him and Satan are one and the same. And I think Jesus and Lucifer are one and the same trying to liberate us from JHVH!

first off, i don't know where the race thing came from. i said earlier that i don't think religion and religious people are inherently bad, that i'm not attacking all christians, and i hope the right intention came off - that i want to reconcile my opposition to a lot of things that are on some level connected to christianity with my desire to, as dannon and taosaur mentioned, get past the ego and misguided dualism.

-=-=-

even at an early age i felt some kind of awkwardness when a person said something about jesus and how nonbelievers go to hell and so on. when i started college i studied environmentalism/ecology and anthropology, and began to clarify some things that i had been thinking about through high school.

you really can not deny the fact that christianity is linked to a variety of global issues, including environmental degradation. i said earlier that christians don't care about nature - i was saying that in a broader sense than in reference to individuals. sure, you can quote scripture that indicates otherwise, but historically and culturally those values haven't been put to much use.

kadath, i was going to bring up china in the last post, but decided not to. china is at the other end of the spectrum. in their case, religion is something that must be forgotten, along with many other traditional ways (just look at their treatment of tibetans and how traditional chinese medicine had to go underground for so long).

photolysis and taosaur - thanks for your posts.

armistice, i think i've been explaining that.