Missing the point of "religion"

[Rainman]

It's amazing to think about. I used to be so bought into the idea of religion and things associated with it. I used to rise to the defense of Christianity so quickly. I still have a spiritual side, I'm not necessarily atheist, or a non-believer, but rather, I think of myself as an open-minded skeptic. I've spent the last few years, and more intensively, the last several months really developing my skills in neuro-linguistic programming, hypnosis, subliminal influence and persuasion and social dynamics, social engineering, etc. And holy shit... I had a rude awakening. Psychics, mind readers, magicians... I can do all of that stuff with great ease. I can do it with the same effect as these "experts" with tv shows. I can make you atheists and non-believers into the most devout Christians or whatever religion... And that's my point. I know many of you have long since arrived to this concept, but I have just realized that religion is a mind-washing devise used for nothing more than people control. It's people control. Don't get me wrong- I have no problem with faith. Faith in something higher, in my opinion is a beautiful thing. My problem is when people use their faith to justify the institution of certain ridiculous doctrines which are then used to justify judging and harming others. Fuck that fucked up system. It really really scares me. It really does. I don't know what's real anymore. I can make you believe I am reading your mind, when really, all I'm doing is inserting something specific into your mind, and using some very very advanced mentalism tactics to give the impression that I'm reading minds. I've gotten so good at this stuff, I can even conversationally hypnotize someone into believing that I have telekinetic powers, and make them appear to physically see with their eyes that I am moving something, when in fact, I am not. In learning all of these psychological manipulation techniques, I have slowly lost almost all faith in any religion based ideology. And I feel as though I've been liberated from the circle of poisonous people control. Granted, don't get me wrong, religions all have many great things about them, helping people to live good lives and do good things in the world. What bothers me is that people ignore those parts. Doing things like banning gay marriage, because marriage is a "holy institution between man and woman." Yeah, fuck that. In my opinion. Justifies starting wars, and blowing yourself and innocent dozens of others for Allah, or what have you. Maybe I'm taking this further than necessary, but it's insane. The "presence of god" you feel... I can make you feel that using only words, and in turn, make you believe that you are having a religious experience. Don't believe me? Watch Derren Brown do it on youtube. I've done it before too. My point is, the real purpose for religion is mass control. But the real purpose it SHOULD be is to just be kind. Be good people. There's so much hate and ignorance and stupidity in the world. And ironically, it's BECAUSE of fucking religion, and that's exactly what the supposed "concept" of religion is supposed to be AGAINST!!! So fuck! Does anyone else notice this? I feel like I'm crazy! Christianity in itself is fucking blasphemy- the religion, not the faith. I have no issue with faith. It's the stupid fucking rules and doctrines and enablers for haters, and LIES and REWRITES that are all in the "holy book" which was "written by god." Bull fucking shit. It's all lies. If you believe in god, then believe in god! And let everyone else believe in what they believe in! If you're an atheist, COOL! If you're agnostic, COOL! Who cares? Why should you all give a fuck what anyone else is? The point of your religion is to LOVE. LOVE LOVE LOVE. And arguing with people who don't agree with you is a big fucking pile of hypocritical nonsense. If you REALLY believe in karmic laws of the universe as I do, respect one another! We spend so much fucking time arguing about shit, and who the fuck cares? Get over yourselves. Everyone. Including me at times. I will take my own advice. I don't understand people who believe in nothing at all. But I respect those people. They are humans with beautiful minds and the potential to do anything! I don't think I believe in god, or a lot of other things anymore, but I still respect the people who do. I just wish everyone could share their beliefs/non-beliefs with everyone without having to worry about how the next ignorant fuck will react to them. I wish gays (gayness being another concept I will never understand, but am completely supportive of) could get married and be happy (or completely miserable) like everyone else! Religion was supposed to be about spreading POSITIVITY and LOVE throughout the world. And what the fuck happened? Some of the most despicable, hateful, terrible people in the world call themselves fucking Christians. At the same time If you're atheist, and someone is Christian, why should their faith offend you? What gives you the right to insult their belief in something just because it's not your belief? Who are you that you should be so arrogant? Who knows YOUR name? If you're Christian, and you're talking to an atheist, what gives you the right to insult their intelligence, and judge and condemn them, when not only does that go against what YOUR BIBLE says, but it is also irrelevant, as their beliefs or lack thereof have NOTHING to do with YOU!!! So shut up, and be a good soldier of god. Spread love. Which is ironic, because at this moment in time, I'm frustrated and thus spreading frustration. Just stop hatin' and start love. There's NO legitimate reason to not be kind to one another. Rather, there's no legitimate reason to hate someone for nothing more than what they believe in. That's largely why the world is as fucked up (in retrospect) as it is today. Anyway, I'll shut up now.

[Black_Eagle]

Psychics, mind readers, magicians... I can do all of that stuff with great ease. I can do it with the same effect as these "experts" with tv shows. I can make you atheists and non-believers into the most devout Christians or whatever religion... And that's my point. No you can't. At least not those of us who have an deeply rooted tendency to remind ourselves to think objectively always.

[Rainman]

Okay, there's this cool thing called the "big picture," otherwise known as ... the "point" of what I was saying. Which is that I can give the illusion of being some sort of super natural, psychic profit of god or something, when really I'm just hacking your brain. So I guess that's my fault for phrasing it badly. And even outside of my point, to be frank, yes, I can. I don't spew shit about things I can't do and just say I can so I can seem "cool" in front of a bunch of random strangers from the internet who are evidently completely ignorant to concepts of psychological brainwashing- NLP covert/conversational/black ops hypnosis, etc. ANYONE can be convinced of absolutely anything, I promise you. I'd be happy to explain to you in a friendly chat that is somewhere other than this thread (for the purposes of... you know.. staying on topic) exactly how it's done, if you really were inquiring, and not being arrogant by trying to tell me what I cannot do when I've done it twice (in which case I apologize for being condescending.) Like I said, perhaps I just phrased it badly. "I can make any non-believer believe, at least for a short period of time." I didn't mean that you'd become a continuously ongoing practicing religious nutjob. But I can make your skepticism disappear for as long as I'm around you, and it will have nothing to do with cool effects or anything. Nope. Just re-coding some software in your mind. That's pretty much all it would take for you, or anyone else. Has nothing to do with intelligence, it has to do with how the human mind and brain work. In any case, I reiterate to you that that little detail is not the point of what I was saying. Ironically, I'm siding with skeptics (I'm assuming you're one of them) in this particular "excerpt" from my post, by explaining that all these mystical concepts believers hold so dearly to themselves can all be fabricated using science, and made to look completely believable. Which is eye opening, and really makes you really become critical of everything around you. At least that's what happened to me.

[Unelias]

Psychics, mind readers, magicians... I can do all of that stuff with great ease. I can do it with the same effect as these "experts" with tv shows. I can make you atheists and non-believers into the most devout Christians or whatever religion... And that's my point. . I don't spew shit about things I can't do and just say I can so I can seem "cool" in front of a bunch of random strangers from the internet who are evidently completely ignorant to concepts of psychological brainwashing- NLP covert/conversational/black ops hypnosis, etc. ANYONE can be convinced of absolutely anything, I promise you. Just because somebody else had a weak mind which submits to other people's will doesn't mean I do. I disagree with you. Unless given substances that cause serious delusions and avert one from reality, you cannot do that for me. You cannot program human mind. You can try to implant seeds there which may or may not grow into certain outcomes. Like you told in your examples, you can make people think something. You can delude them to think that you can read their minds. That works for some people, but I regard them simply ( and maybe quite rudely) as weak minded. You could never make me a Christian. Before you cut in, I have also some knowledge from the previously mentioned things. At the same time If you're atheist, and someone is Christian, why should their faith offend you? What gives you the right to insult their belief in something just because it's not your belief? Who are you that you should be so arrogant? Who knows YOUR name? People are free to do whatever they please. However, for me faith and beliefs are worst things that exist in this world. They are reason for all that is sick and twisted. I have told this in many threads and I don't want to start long ramble of it now here. But it is pretty much all you have come up with this thread of yours and some more. If you're Christian, and you're talking to an atheist, what gives you the right to insult their intelligence, and judge and condemn them, when not only does that go against what YOUR BIBLE says, but it is also irrelevant, as their beliefs or lack thereof have NOTHING to do with YOU!!! So shut up, and be a good soldier of god. Spread love. Which is ironic, because at this moment in time, I'm frustrated and thus spreading frustration. Just stop hatin' and start love. There's NO legitimate reason to not be kind to one another. Rather, there's no legitimate reason to hate someone for nothing more than what they believe in. That's largely why the world is as fucked up (in retrospect) as it is today. This is why it is best for all to keep their ideals and beliefs on their own head and not spread them further. It is polite. Everyone is free to do whatever they please, believe or not to believe. But if someone even tries to take a higher moral ground by justificating his actions via religion or ideals. Off his head. There is no such thing as justification. There is no granted right. No righteous vengeance. Nothing. We are all only humans. Nobody can say that he has right to do something. The truth is, as you too said, there is no legimate reason. People can hate each other, they can kill each other if they are able. But nothing is legimate or justified. In learning all of these psychological manipulation techniques, I have slowly lost almost all faith in any religion based ideology. And I feel as though I've been liberated from the circle of poisonous people control. Granted, don't get me wrong, religions all have many great things about them, helping people to live good lives and do good things in the world. An average intelligent adult doesn't even that information to understand that concept of religion is twisted to begin with. It has always existed to control people. You can do "good" to people without a holy shroud on your shoulders.One hand to give alms to the poor and other one to hold the sword that cuts down the infidels. Basic religion style. ... can all be fabricated using science, and made to look completely believable. This is why you should never believe. People who fall into believing things they don't understand. They suffer. Don't believe. No need to live under an illusion

[Rainman]

Just because somebody else had a weak mind which submits to other people's will doesn't mean I do. I disagree with you. Unless given substances that cause serious delusions and avert one from reality, you cannot do that for me. You cannot program human mind. You can try to implant seeds there which may or may not grow into certain outcomes. Like you told in your examples, you can make people think something. You can delude them to think that you can read their minds. That works for some people, but I regard them simply ( and maybe quite rudely) as weak minded. You could never make me a Christian. Before you cut in, I have also some knowledge from the previously mentioned things. Not true. It is entirely possible to program the human mind. I do it daily. Again, it has nothing to do with "convincing" by way of demonstration. That's just entertainment as far as I'm concern. Using words and completely harmless physical touch, among other things that would not cause you any harm or danger or anything, I guarantee you this could be done. I understand, people get all defensive with me because they are so certain that they are not one of these people. It's not submitting to someone's will. At least not intentionally. And please don't make the mistake of saying that those people are weak-minded. Almost every practitioner of any form of psychoanalysis or therapy of any kind will tell you that people who are suggestible, if anything, are STRONGER minded, as suggestibility is largely a function of there being a lack of the conscious critical factor which actually impedes the use of your higher learning state of brainwave activity, (the alpha state- yes I admit that this is still contraversial) and thus those who are less suggestible, are also far less likely to mentally advance. I was a naysayer, until it was done to me, so rather than bash it down and get defensive while knowing nothing about how it works, I decided to try and disprove the concepts by learning it myself, and I was completely wrong. Obviously I don't know you, but unless you've spent years studying and mastering this stuff like myself and many others have, it works on you too. It has nothing to do with your ability as a person or your intelligence or anything like that. It's like saying "well MY computer can't be hacked." yes, it can. Any computer can. It always depends on the skill of the hacker. Your brain is a computer. Just like computers, it has holes in it's coding that can be exploited to achieve objectives. I promise. I will be happy to explain how it works, but I will be writing for literally days if I do that now. I really am not dodging, send me a pm if you're curious. As for your other points, People are free to do whatever they please. However, for me faith and beliefs are worst things that exist in this world. They are reason for all that is sick and twisted. I have told this in many threads and I don't want to start long ramble of it now here. But it is pretty much all you have come up with this thread of yours and some more. And I still truly stand by that. To me, religion is one of the worst things in the world, but in my opinion, faith is different from that. To me faith is believing in something more, and choosing to engage in that. It gives a lot of people hope, whether false or not, and not all who have faith in something (and I'd say not even the majority) are the causes of terrible things in the world. Religion is responsible for much more of that. For example, I believe in reincarnation. I believe that I'll die, and eventually come back. Does the belief harm anyone? An average intelligent adult doesn't even that information to understand that concept of religion is twisted to begin with. It has always existed to control people. You can do "good" to people without a holy shroud on your shoulders.One hand to give alms to the poor and other one to hold the sword that cuts down the infidels. Basic religion style You're exactly right on this one, I think, with one exception- It does take this knowledge for many people to understand that religion is nothing more than people control! Most people are too BRAINWASHED to realize what's going on! That's my point. They are inducted into at birth, and never know any other reality. That's the problem right now. There is no granted right. No righteous vengeance. Nothing. We are all only humans. Nobody can say that he has right to do something. The truth is, as you too said, there is no legimate reason. People can hate each other, they can kill each other if they are able. But nothing is legimate or justified. Yes, I have to agree with you there. What's unfortunate is, that not so many people realize that the actions they choose to make aren't all righteous just because their precious god "wills it." Idunno. I can't stand it. It's almost as evil as the US monitary system, but I won't start here. This is why you should never believe. People who fall into believing things they don't understand. They suffer. Don't believe. No need to live under an illusion But some people NEED an illusion. Shit, I sure could use one. I'd almost rather be a moron and completely content with that, then be able to know how shitty the world has gone, and how many idiots there are, and how seemingly few "awake" people there are out there.

[Noogah]

This is why you should never believe Nah. If we don't believe, then we will become like the unstable psychotic people who believe nothing. I am a Christian, and believe that the Bible is 100% correct. But even if it weren't true, I would much rather be stable in false beliefs than living unstable, always searching for what's real. Never actually believing anything. If you believe in something, then you are on the same boat as everybody who believes anything. If you believe in nothing, then anything is a possibility.

[Unelias]

Nah. If we don't believe, then we will become like the unstable psychotic people who believe nothing. Better that than deluded believer who will commit things in holy smokes. Tap on your back Noogah, not all are strong enough to cope life without extraordinary beliefs. Carry on. I am a Christian, and believe that the Bible is 100% correct. But even if it weren't true, I would much rather be stable in false beliefs than living unstable, always searching for what's real. Never actually believing anything. For me truth is something that could give some meaning to life. I don't want to live in falsehood and illusions. Of course, many do. Many like easy things. Like letting somebody else think for their behalf. It is a great feat to walk amids chaos and survive. I cannot stand if things get too organized, because it enables world to start rust in it's place and create yet again ridicilous standards and traditions. Soon we are burning witches and raping virgins at the marketplace again. How do you think unless you think differently? Are you actually thinking at all? The same old verse... If you believe in something, then you are on the same boat as everybody who believes anything. If you believe in nothing, then anything is a possibility. Which quite accurately is the case. Because of your beliefs, truth can never be found, unless you are really ready to discard those beliefs. Only a madman clings on something that gets proved false.An open mind and skepticism are a good couple. And now to the real subject. Not true. It is entirely possible to program the human mind. I do it daily. Again, it has nothing to do with "convincing" by way of demonstration. That's just entertainment as far as I'm concern. Using words and completely harmless physical touch, among other things that would not cause you any harm or danger or anything, I guarantee you this could be done. I understand, people get all defensive with me because they are so certain that they are not one of these people. No matter how much you can "program" human mind with suggestions, they are still that : suggestions. Since we are humans any outcome is possible. Nobody can totally control another human. It is very natural to be defensive, since I do not believe in such things. If I did, it might even work. Would be a nice challenge too. I'd be ready to pay a lot for a man who succeeded, with no other means than his very own personality, make me a devoit Christian. That however won't happen and I can keep my money. There is no bait, no strings, no reason for me to convert. Thus there is no temptation, no feelings. Just logical mind behind it. Human manipulation is based on emotions. It's not submitting to someone's will. At least not intentionally. And please don't make the mistake of saying that those people are weak-minded. Almost every practitioner of any form of psychoanalysis or therapy of any kind will tell you that people who are suggestible, if anything, are STRONGER minded, as suggestibility is largely a function of there being a lack of the conscious critical factor which actually impedes the use of your higher learning state of brainwave activity, (the alpha state- yes I admit that this is still contraversial) and thus those who are less suggestible, are also far less likely to mentally advance. Interesting idea. Does it hold? Yet again, willpower and intelligence are two very different factors. I'd like to see a proper study conducted with carefully planned test. Maybe it would get a bit more reliable theory. I don't know you, but unless you've spent years studying mastering this stuff like myself and many others have, it works on you too. It has nothing to do with your ability as a person or your intelligence or anything like that. I have spend my whole life mastering myself. I have had my share of all kind of mental activities. Yet again I am not leaning to my intelligence. I think of myself fairly intelligent, able to master many things. Yet, what separates me from other people near me is more of my willpower. I am ,among other things, very hard core martial artist and I am accustomed of whipping my body and mind to their borders and beyond. On top of that I have a fair amount of basic Finnish nature, which helps me a lot in cases requiring willpower. I have also more things which are closely knitted into psychology, but maybe more of them later or in private. To me faith is believing in something more, and choosing to engage in that. It gives a lot of people hope, whether false or not, and not all who have faith in something (and I'd say not even the majority) are the causes of terrible things in the world. Religion is responsible for much more of that. For example, I believe in reincarnation. I believe that I'll die, and eventually come back. Does the belief harm anyone? Why to believe something more? Cannot stand reality? Yes, it gives hope. Hope is also very human kind of emotion, which like many other emotions can cause disasters or benefit. Still the basis of faith is very hazardous. Faith is defined as a strong belief of something that cannot be proved. If it can, then it is a fact. What happens if you believe something to be true, which you have no evidence. It has ingredients for all kind of interesting things, holocaust or holy wars for instance. It is true that organized religion is the root of all nasty crap, but faith, as a concept is as bad too. Personally, if it were even closely possible I wouldn't mind if people believed whatever they did. If only they kept it inside their heads and stopped using their beliefs as justification or tool. Now, if you carefully think this thing, you'll know the answer for your own question. Does the belief harm anyone? Maybe it wouldn't but since we are humans we cannot keep it inside us. But some people NEED an illusion. Shit, I sure could use one. I'd almost rather be a moron and completely content with that, then be able to know how shitty the world has gone, and how many idiots there are, and how seemingly few "awake" people there are out there. Nobody really needs it. They crave it, they want it, they want an easier life. But to need? No. I'd rather ate my heart than live like that. For me, harder way is almost every time more favorable. I don't want to live ignorant, because it makes me vulnerable to the very same factors I detest i.e in faith. But yeh, got me interested, which is good thing. I like interesting things. If you have patience we can work this through since I won't be much near my computer for next month. -Un

[Scatterbrain]

Nah. If we don't believe, then we will become like the unstable psychotic people who believe nothing. I am a Christian, and believe that the Bible is 100% correct. But even if it weren't true, I would much rather be stable in false beliefs than living unstable, always searching for what's real. Never actually believing anything. If you believe in something, then you are on the same boat as everybody who believes anything. If you believe in nothing, then anything is a possibility. Ignorance is bliss huh?

[Specialis Sapientia]

Nah. If we don't believe, then we will become like the unstable psychotic people who believe nothing. I am a Christian, and believe that the Bible is 100% correct. But even if it weren't true, I would much rather be stable in false beliefs than living unstable, always searching for what's real. Never actually believing anything. If you believe in something, then you are on the same boat as everybody who believes anything. If you believe in nothing, then anything is a possibility. One does not live unstably if one does not belief. Rather, you live unstably because you are unstable, which isn't true. You might think you are stable because you are in the same boat as everybody else, but that is because of you are stricken with fear and insecurity. You are in the same time locked down by the belief, hold tight by others so you don't get free. So you can share the delusion together and keep the status quo. If what you call "stable" is just being static, that in itself would be pointless. There is almost no room for growth, being static is not the purpose, but to evolve is. Why not always search for what's real? Why keep yourself limited by fear, belief an dogma? By going your own path you will with no doubt find big truth, and keep expanding the big picture one has. You are saying it yourself, right there in your own words. "If you believe in nothing, then anything is a possibility." That is true, in the most real sense, anything is possible without belief. By having no belief, one is open to all possibilities, and by that one will see the greater reality, which reaches beyond anything ever conceptualised by any religion. Your words and thoughts, you have just stated hold a lot of truth to them, but they are ignored by the same person, as they miss your reality tunnel. Give your thoughts a new and more fruitful meaning, as you view them in an another light. By using your free-will with a positive intent you progress through the evolution we all do on our shared journey. You have nothing to lose and everything to gain.

[Noogah]

Whoa...you say one little thing, and look what you get.