Thread: Atheism leads to Immoral Behavior

Originally Posted by imran_p

What gets me the most about this is that retaliation has been considered a sin. God is the absolute moral authority right? God's the best a retaliating. If you don't act like he tells you too, you burn in eternal fire. Or he might just send a giant flood to kill everybody? Or kick you out of paradise for eating an apple? How about ordering genocide and infanticide because the population of the city are "idol worshippers."
How about gambling with our lives? You only go to heaven if your a Christian, but you sir have been born into a family of atheists who indocrinate you into atheism, or may be a family of Buddhists. So God's a gambler and a "retaliater".
Since he's moral authority here, maybe we should change the sins eh?

Please rebutt this point.

God laid out a guide on how to live your life. Every question you have about how to live is laid out in this book... This "life guide" is called the Bible. Again, Jesus died on the cross to save us of our sins. God said that anyone who accepts Jesus as their Lord and savior and turn from a life of sin will go to heaven. Those who don't will go to hell. So actually it is up to you to find the truth for your own life. If you don't believe in all this then you have nothing to worry about right? So, why make a big fuss over it?

What are you on about seriously? This thread is about atheism and immorality based on study posted. I used that study to construct a point, a point I feel that is valid. You have previously defended this study, so I expected some form on counter point, however, instead you post a summary of Christianity and tell me that if I don't beleive in not to discuss it? This is a discussion forum, if you do not want to engage in debate then don't post here. Once again, either argue against the point that this survey is irreparably flawed as, for Christians God is the absolute moral authority yet retaliation is listed a sin and there are numerous examples of God commiting retaliation. Surely this means that retaliation is not only, not a sin, but is also Good, since God is intristically Good?

There have been more deletions and infractions in this thread.

I understand the topic is controversial, but that doesn't mean you can insult and mock others. Take this into consideration before posting here or thou shalt be smitten.

Originally Posted by davej

Jesus came to earth to fie on the cross for our sins. This is what allows you into heaven, when you accept the lord as your savior. Now I really haven't thought about what you posted Bonsay but it is an interesting point. Although we may not be perfect now, when we die and go to heaven we will be perfect, there will be no evil in your soul. Like I said, I haven't studied the subject of people in heaven knowing what is going on in hell but I am going to study that.

I'm having a hard time discussing this stuff, since it requires the usage of the vague concept of the soul. There are two problems here:

First: Evil is taken out of the soul, God is forced to act. If there is no evil in the soul later, then all we have left is God concealing hell or convincing the soul that hell is a part of the greater good. This need is strange in light of God's omnipotence, but also tasteless in the light of our (I hope) current moral standing - that looking and seeing the Holocaust through Hitlers eyes and thus forgiving him is immoral; at least I'd argue that you can't logically discuss this if you don't have a defined set of morals - so saying that God's plan of burning atheists and a clean heaven is on a greater level than Hitlers plan of burning Jews and a clean master race just doesn't work, or should I say is a weak argument from ignorance.

Second: Another problem you raise is the soul problem. If the soul can shed evil and good, then the soul is inherently deterministic. Free will can therefore only be an illusion. Heaven takes away the free will by cleaning the soul of evil, in other words taking the free will to do evil away. This implies that a soul isn't a pure free will machine (paradox?) but something that can be influenced and determined. Saying that there is free will in heaven, but that you can't chose to be evil, means that the soul is still determined, even in a pure, perfect spiritual state, which isn't limited and forced to only act implicitly and be imperfect like in the physical universe. (I'd also like to point out how the determined universe inadvertently determines certain aspects of your "soul" and condemning you to hell/heaven even before we get to the pure soul stage.)

Which brings me to the question: what's the point? If there is no free will, if evil and good can be torn and added from the soul, how can the evil and good determine the eternal torture or peace of this soul. Without free will hell and heaven, the idea of transcendental justice lose meaning. So either you got it wrong and God lets everybody go, or God purposefully decides and sends people to one of those places.

I don't know. The thing that would clear everything out for me, would be proof of free will and the characteristics of the soul. "Luckily" most things like these are vaguely defined in religions. So you can never get to the bottom of it, even if you set out to prove/disprove a religion.

Originally Posted by imran_p

What are you on about seriously? This thread is about atheism and immorality based on study posted. I used that study to construct a point, a point I feel that is valid. You have previously defended this study, so I expected some form on counter point, however, instead you post a summary of Christianity and tell me that if I don't beleive in not to discuss it? This is a discussion forum, if you do not want to engage in debate then don't post here. Once again, either argue against the point that this survey is irreparably flawed as, for Christians God is the absolute moral authority yet retaliation is listed a sin and there are numerous examples of God commiting retaliation. Surely this means that retaliation is not only, not a sin, but is also Good, since God is intristically Good?

ClouD busted me...darn. Gotta clean it up a bit...

I agree with you; this thread is getting a wee bit off-topic...but at any rate, the survey is heavily flawed. The statistics alone are somewhat questionable, and the conclusions drawn are non-sequitur fallacies. To say, "If more atheists tend to engage in X-activities, then atheists are more immoral," is illogical and rather narrow-minded. While this may be the case when traditional evangelical concepts of morality are applied, this does not mean that atheists are in fact more immoral than religious people, as this implies a broad, sweeping sense of the word. They may be more immoral as compared to evangelical standards, but can hardly be considered so in any other sense.

Besides this, morality is relative. What is moral to one culture could be a fatal sin in another. This is also true of this study. While an atheists appears more immoral to the evangelical community, their actions aren't given a second glance in most other circles. To imply that atheists in general are more immoral (which, in this case, is a broad and sweeping term) is illogical, and does not follow. To make a claim such as that would imply that atheists purposely go out of their way to be immoral, and if the laws of society were reversed, they would end up following the same moral standards the evangelicals hold.

Originally Posted by davej

Jesus came to earth to fie on the cross for our sins. This is what allows you into heaven, when you accept the lord as your savior. Now I really haven't thought about what you posted Bonsay but it is an interesting point. Although we may not be perfect now, when we die and go to heaven we will be perfect, there will be no evil in your soul. Like I said, I haven't studied the subject of people in heaven knowing what is going on in hell but I am going to study that.

~

Originally Posted by davej

God laid out a guide on how to live your life. Every question you have about how to live is laid out in this book... This "life guide" is called the Bible. Again, Jesus died on the cross to save us of our sins. God said that anyone who accepts Jesus as their Lord and savior and turn from a life of sin will go to heaven. Those who don't will go to hell. So actually it is up to you to find the truth for your own life. If you don't believe in all this then you have nothing to worry about right? So, why make a big fuss over it?

I MAKE A BIG FUSS BECAUSE YOU WORSHIP A DEITY THAT WILL SEND MOST PEOPLE TO BURN IN ABSOLUTE AGONY FOR EVER AND EVER

IF YOU CAN'T SEE WHY THAT IS SICK AND AMORAL THEN
YOU
ARE
EVIL

Come back as a neonazi who worships Hitler and I might begin to see you as a MORE MORAL person.

Originally Posted by davej

Idolfan, who says you are going to hell? who says I would be laughing at you if you went to hell? Certainly not I. I don't see hell or anyone going to hell as a laughing matter. Please do not assume things.

So you admit that you will be miserable in heaven?

Part of the Holy Spirit is a divine empathy for all beings.

So, you will ALWAYS be miserable and so will everybody else in heaven and God's creation will have been a MISTAKE and a FAILURE.

If you will NOT be made miserable by all the people burning in hell, then all I can say is GOOD LUCK QUALIFYING FOR HEAVEN!

Calm yourself. You're embarrassing.

~

Originally Posted by O'nus

Calm yourself. You're embarrassing.

~

I don't know about you but I think it is rather insane and embarassing NOT to be offended when somebody admits that they worship the most sadistic being ever, worse than Hitler.

Originally Posted by Idolfan

I don't know about you but I think it is rather insane and embarassing NOT to be offended when somebody admits that they worship the most sadistic being ever, worse than Hitler.

Seconded. Has anybody pointed out that Fundamentalist Christianity leads to stupid behavior? A case in point being the existence of this thread.

Originally Posted by kingerman

Sin Evangelicals Atheists
Viewing pornography 12% 50% Not immoral
Profanity in public 16% 60% Not immoral
Gambling 2% 7% Not immoral
Gossiping 4% 34% Not immoral
Sex with non-spouse 3% 7% Not immoral
Retaliation 7% 11% Not immoral
Drunkenness 0.5% 33% Not immoral
Lying 1% 100% 7% Fundamentalist Christianity is a lie

.

Originally Posted by davej

I said I would never come here again but after long discussions with my preacher and a lot of prayer, i felt that I should return, for my brothers and sisters through Christ, to try to lift them up as they deal with those that try to put them down in here.

With all due respect Kingerman, I have to say that I don't know how much I believe in this study. I think it could be a little off due to the fact that if Christians are involved in immoral behavior they will not admit it. I also feel that even if you aren't a Christian, you can still be a good person.

Also, another thing that kind of struck me funny was this quote by Mark75



You do not respect our beliefs so why should we respect yours? Even though I have shown nothing but respect of your beliefs in the past, MOST of you have gone out of your way to disrespect my beliefs and other Christian's beliefs in this forum.



Please inform me Evildoctor of how I am waisiting my life by being a Christian. My life is wonderful and I wouldn't trade it for anyone else's.

Davej,

My post was in response to Kingerman's lame list of sins.

The basic issue with christian sin is when it interferes with the joy of living. I know many devout xtions do not beleive in sex before marriage. To a non-christian this is very strange indeed. Seeing as sex and physical love is such a joy then why would anyone want to deny themselves? Lets say the atheists are right and we are just worm food when we die then is it not sad to deny any and every experience - especially the deeply pleasurable ones? Any of us could die through misfortune at any moment - so then why not get laid as much as possible. Why wait? Life is short and time is fleeting.

Most healthy adults can drink occasionally, gamble, enjoy pornography with no issues. Can these really be offenses suitable for burning in a firey pit for all eternity?

Are you aware that the xtian model of hell is very different to other faiths. The Jews have Ghenna - where you go for up to 11 months - depending on the seriousness of your crimes - you are then forgiven and go to heaven. Islam follows a similar model - you are punished according to the size of your earthly crimes and then move on. The Hindu's also have a type of hell where you are punished for major crimes before your next incarnation - smaller crimes are balanced by Karma in the next incarnation. Isnt it odd that ALL of these non christian gods seem to show clemency and forgivness AFTER a punishment suitable to the size of the crime. Yet it is the xtian "God of love" that apparently will send you to a burning pit for all eternity for the crime of buying a 6 pack of beer, a porn rag and then going round to your girlfriend to give her a sound rodgering.

Only xtianity has this "Hell for all eternity" approach. Xtianity is also dishonest - you have a built in "get out of hell free card". As long as you appologise, recant, confess, be penitent, then you are "forgiven". At least in faiths such as Islam if you commit a crime then you do your time in hell and are then forgiven. Xtians have no real motive to not sin - they just need to keep apologising and wailing about being a poor sinner (and of course the old fave "the devil tempted me!!!") and they are good to go.

As to whether your life is "wasted". I read with interest in your "becoming a xtian" thread that you used to party hard, drink and run with the wrong crowd and your life was a train wreck, but now you are a good christian. So good for you, im happy for you if you got laid and drunk a few times before you "found god". You now dedicate your life to god, tithe a % of your earnings to the church, get life advice on everything from your preacher (even about such mundane things as to whether to return to DV apparently), and of course you no longer party hard, drink or run with the "wrong crowd". I would say the first part of your life sounded great. The life you are living now, such as not coimmiting any sins for fear of invoking the wrath of the sky fairy - does from my point of view seem somewhat wasted. But its your life and you must do what you will.

It does interest me why you came back though. After all you posted in your "Goodbye Im leaving cos you are all so mean" thread that you dont have any interest in Lucid Dreaming. All you do is hang out in the R/S forum. You post threads such as devotionals in a discussion forum and then whine when others make "profane" posts within them. Why do you come here? Why are you not hanging out on a Christian forum somewhere? Lets be honest - your devotionals and prayer threads didnt have a lot of takers? There's 1500 active members on these boards! And how many people have posted their stories in your "When did you become xtian thread" Its also odd that you needed much prayer and the advice of your Preacher to return. Are you on a mission Davej? Is Noogah & Kyhin your little flock? Do you get brownie points or extra credits redeemable at the pearly gates for fighting the "good" fight on DV's? Does your preacher also tell you when you can go to the bathroom and do you pray hard for acuracy?

I HIGHLY doubt the amount of cheating spouses is as low as either side reports.

Originally Posted by davej

Jesus came to earth to fie on the cross for our sins. This is what allows you into heaven, when you accept the lord as your savior. Now I really haven't thought about what you posted Bonsay but it is an interesting point. Although we may not be perfect now, when we die and go to heaven we will be perfect, there will be no evil in your soul. Like I said, I haven't studied the subject of people in heaven knowing what is going on in hell but I am going to study that.

as if knowing makes any difference.

UUUUUUUUUHHHHHHHHHH

Can't... resist... temptation...

must... send...

X(

As far as I'm concerned, all you've shown is that atheists are much more likely to admit to these behaviors than evangelical christians.

Originally Posted by Xaqaria

As far as I'm concerned, all you've shown is that atheists are much more likely to admit to these behaviors than evangelical christians.

Yes, precisely!

Religion and other such methods do not eliminate sin; they drive it from the public eye, into the seedy and dangerous back alleys. (Prohibition ring any bells?) Legislated morality always fails, and religion is essentially toned-down legislated morality...

The basic issue with Christian sin is when it interferes with the joy of living. I know many devout xtions do not beleive in sex before marriage. To a non-Christian this is very strange indeed. Seeing as sex and physical love is such a joy then why would anyone want to deny themselves? Lets say the atheists are right and we are just worm food when we die then is it not sad to deny any and every experience - especially the deeply pleasurable ones? Any of us could die through misfortune at any moment - so then why not get laid as much as possible. Why wait? Life is short and time is fleeting.

Who's to say I'm denying myself anything? Why give up something that is so meaningful to just anyone? I believe that giving yourself to your wife or husband is the best gift you could ever give them.

Most healthy adults can drink occasionally, gamble, enjoy pornography with no issues. Can these really be offenses suitable for burning in a firey pit for all eternity?

I know Christians who will have a beer or two, who will have a glass of wine or two but will not indulge in it. I also know Christian who will go out and gamble a little from time to time but will not indulge in that either. When you indulge in it enough that it affects your life and affects your relationship with God then yes, you do need forgiveness for it. As far as pornography, that brings lust into your life. Take me for example, if I watched porn and lust was brought into my heart then in God's eyes that would be the same as adultery.

Are you aware that the xtian model of hell is very different to other faiths. The Jews have Ghenna - where you go for up to 11 months - depending on the seriousness of your crimes - you are then forgiven and go to heaven. Islam follows a similar model - you are punished according to the size of your earthly crimes and then move on. The Hindu's also have a type of hell where you are punished for major crimes before your next incarnation - smaller crimes are balanced by Karma in the next incarnation. Isnt it odd that ALL of these non Christian gods seem to show clemency and forgivness AFTER a punishment suitable to the size of the crime. Yet it is the xtian "God of love" that apparently will send you to a burning pit for all eternity for the crime of buying a 6 pack of beer, a porn rag and then going round to your girlfriend to give her a sound rodgering.

Yes I know there are different types of hell and I respect other people's view points on it. Christians have a different view of hell and my friends that I know that are of different religions respect my view as well. What's the problem with that? If you don't believe in hell or believe my view of hell then you have nothing to worry about and it shouldn't be an issue.

Only xtianity has this "Hell for all eternity" approach. Xtianity is also dishonest - you have a built in "get out of hell free card". As long as you appologise, recant, confess, be penitent, then you are "forgiven". At least in faiths such as Islam if you commit a crime then you do your time in hell and are then forgiven. Xtians have no real motive to not sin - they just need to keep apologising and wailing about being a poor sinner (and of course the old fave "the devil tempted me!!!") and they are good to go.

We do not have a built in get out of hell free card... When a person accepts Jesus, turns from sin then it is a 180 degree turn for that person. Christianity isn't about "ooohhh I’ll accept Jesus and then run out and have major drunken orgies and top it of with massive murders". Doesn't work that way.

As to whether your life is "wasted". I read with interest in your "becoming a xtian" thread that you used to party hard, drink and run with the wrong crowd and your life was a train wreck, but now you are a good Christian. So good for you, im happy for you if you got laid and drunk a few times before you "found god". You now dedicate your life to god, tithe a % of your earnings to the church, get life advice on everything from your preacher (even about such mundane things as to whether to return to DV apparently), and of course you no longer party hard, drink or run with the "wrong crowd". I would say the first part of your life sounded great. The life you are living now, such as not coimmiting any sins for fear of invoking the wrath of the sky fairy - does from my point of view seem somewhat wasted. But its your life and you must do what you will.

That first part of my life was wasted in a way and in a way it was not. I feel over time, it actually brought me closer to God. It showed me that road was a dead in street. I am so much happier now, my life is filled with so much more joy then sitting in a bar or downing a case of beer. There was no point to my life during that time.

It does interest me why you came back though. After all you posted in your "Goodbye Im leaving cos you are all so mean" thread that you dont have any interest in Lucid Dreaming. All you do is hang out in the R/S forum. You post threads such as devotionals in a discussion forum and then whine when others make "profane" posts within them. Why do you come here? Why are you not hanging out on a Christian forum somewhere? Lets be honest - your devotionals and prayer threads didnt have a lot of takers? There's 1500 active members on these boards! And how many people have posted their stories in your "When did you become xtian thread" Its also odd that you needed much prayer and the advice of your Preacher to return. Are you on a mission Davej? Is Noogah & Kyhin your little flock? Do you get brownie points or extra credits redeemable at the pearly gates for fighting the "good" fight on DV's? Does your preacher also tell you when you can go to the bathroom and do you pray hard for acuracy?

I look for God's direction in everything I do. If I were to plant one seed then it would be worth being here.

You are still failing to respond to any of the posts that refer to the original study. I refer you to my question regarding God and retaliation. If you want to preach, and don't want to discuss the topic at hand why are you in this thread? You, as the sole Christian in this thread and it seems the sole supporter of the study in this thread, should be defending your position, instead you're posting drivel like this.

God laid out a guide on how to live your life. Every question you have about how to live is laid out in this book... This "life guide" is called the Bible. Again, Jesus died on the cross to save us of our sins. God said that anyone who accepts Jesus as their Lord and savior and turn from a life of sin will go to heaven. Those who don't will go to hell. So actually it is up to you to find the truth for your own life. If you don't believe in all this then you have nothing to worry about right? So, why make a big fuss over it?

I once had this really great idea. There is a place in Downtown Rotterdam where a small group of evangelistic christians preach and play music and spread flyers about church god and jesus.
They sang and preached about God and jesus, scaring people that without accepting jesus they would go to hell. (speaking of immorality )

My idea was to settle next to them with a guitar, start playing jazzy, ska, dub and chanting in an unrecognisable, formless, strange language. Then I would have a couple of friends hand out flyers filled with all kinds of graphical art and Bible-ish books with the Title "The meaning of life..." on the cover and inside on the first page it reads: "...is the meaning that you give it. That's why I give you this book. To urge you to realise your individual meaning of life and write it down in this book. Off course don't force your beliefs of Life's meaning uppon others. Good luck." and the rest of the book would only be blank pages.

Originally Posted by SKA

I once had this really great idea. There is a place in Downtown Rotterdam where a small group of evangelistic christians preach and play music and spread flyers about church god and jesus.
They sang and preached about God and jesus, scaring people that without accepting jesus they would go to hell. (speaking of immorality )

My idea was to settle next to them with a guitar, start playing jazzy, ska, dub and chanting in an unrecognisable, formless, strange language. Then I would have a couple of friends hand out flyers filled with all kinds of graphical art and Bible-ish books with the Title "The meaning of life..." on the cover and inside on the first page it reads: "...is the meaning that you give it. That's why I give you this book. To urge you to realise your individual meaning of life and write it down in this book. Off course don't force your beliefs of Life's meaning uppon others. Good luck." and the rest of the book would only be blank pages.

That's a pretty great idea. But why was it just an idea? Wouldn't it be fun if you did that?