Thread: Atheism leads to Immoral Behavior

Jesus came to earth to fie on the cross for our sins. This is what allows you into heaven, when you accept the lord as your savior. Now I really haven't thought about what you posted Bonsay but it is an interesting point. Although we may not be perfect now, when we die and go to heaven we will be perfect, there will be no evil in your soul. Like I said, I haven't studied the subject of people in heaven knowing what is going on in hell but I am going to study that.

Originally Posted by davej

Jesus came to earth to fie on the cross for our sins. This is what allows you into heaven, when you accept the lord as your savior. Now I really haven't thought about what you posted Bonsay but it is an interesting point. Although we may not be perfect now, when we die and go to heaven we will be perfect, there will be no evil in your soul. Like I said, I haven't studied the subject of people in heaven knowing what is going on in hell but I am going to study that.

I'm having a hard time discussing this stuff, since it requires the usage of the vague concept of the soul. There are two problems here:

First: Evil is taken out of the soul, God is forced to act. If there is no evil in the soul later, then all we have left is God concealing hell or convincing the soul that hell is a part of the greater good. This need is strange in light of God's omnipotence, but also tasteless in the light of our (I hope) current moral standing - that looking and seeing the Holocaust through Hitlers eyes and thus forgiving him is immoral; at least I'd argue that you can't logically discuss this if you don't have a defined set of morals - so saying that God's plan of burning atheists and a clean heaven is on a greater level than Hitlers plan of burning Jews and a clean master race just doesn't work, or should I say is a weak argument from ignorance.

Second: Another problem you raise is the soul problem. If the soul can shed evil and good, then the soul is inherently deterministic. Free will can therefore only be an illusion. Heaven takes away the free will by cleaning the soul of evil, in other words taking the free will to do evil away. This implies that a soul isn't a pure free will machine (paradox?) but something that can be influenced and determined. Saying that there is free will in heaven, but that you can't chose to be evil, means that the soul is still determined, even in a pure, perfect spiritual state, which isn't limited and forced to only act implicitly and be imperfect like in the physical universe. (I'd also like to point out how the determined universe inadvertently determines certain aspects of your "soul" and condemning you to hell/heaven even before we get to the pure soul stage.)

Which brings me to the question: what's the point? If there is no free will, if evil and good can be torn and added from the soul, how can the evil and good determine the eternal torture or peace of this soul. Without free will hell and heaven, the idea of transcendental justice lose meaning. So either you got it wrong and God lets everybody go, or God purposefully decides and sends people to one of those places.

I don't know. The thing that would clear everything out for me, would be proof of free will and the characteristics of the soul. "Luckily" most things like these are vaguely defined in religions. So you can never get to the bottom of it, even if you set out to prove/disprove a religion.

Originally Posted by davej

Jesus came to earth to fie on the cross for our sins. This is what allows you into heaven, when you accept the lord as your savior. Now I really haven't thought about what you posted Bonsay but it is an interesting point. Although we may not be perfect now, when we die and go to heaven we will be perfect, there will be no evil in your soul. Like I said, I haven't studied the subject of people in heaven knowing what is going on in hell but I am going to study that.

~

Originally Posted by davej

Jesus came to earth to fie on the cross for our sins. This is what allows you into heaven, when you accept the lord as your savior. Now I really haven't thought about what you posted Bonsay but it is an interesting point. Although we may not be perfect now, when we die and go to heaven we will be perfect, there will be no evil in your soul. Like I said, I haven't studied the subject of people in heaven knowing what is going on in hell but I am going to study that.

as if knowing makes any difference.

UUUUUUUUUHHHHHHHHHH

Can't... resist... temptation...

must... send...

X(